It boils down to this we need a new offensive identity and now

[Cusefan0307]

They HAVE to bring in a fifth year guard in that case.

You can't tell me some ivy league guard wouldn't jump at the chance

The problem is, some of these guys can go other places and play 30-35 minutes a night. That's not going to happen here. Look at Louisville and UCONN this year. Some of these teams have unexpected defections and teams need them to just field a competitive team. I mean why the heck else would you got to UCONN over Syracuse.

 

[SoBeCuse]

There is a lot to be said about this and that post game presser that JB gave years ago.

I think that team JB said we wouldn't have won 10 games with wins 10 games without question. This year and last year I think is the first time that it can honestly be said that without "player X (Rak last year, G this year" we don't win 10 games. I don't think we sniff 10 with Joseph or Howard playing and G gone and I don't think we win 10 without Rak in the middle last year. It's scary how great those guys were for us and how they carried these teams on their backs.

And yet we were mediocre teams. Not disputing any of this. Sort of just illustrates how subpar we were with other parts of the roster.

 

[Orange2389]

stop bringing in subpar talent. chino and cooney arent top tier basketball players. not surprising we lost to pitt are you?

 

[retro44]

Boeheim puts a higher value on players who he thinks that excells in his zone defense first. He has the mentality that offense comes natural later in their careers.
The game is passing him by and he has yet to get that.
The players need to hit the weights much harder going forward.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

The coach has grown lazy and arrogant.

 

[TheCusian]

The coach has grown lazy and arrogant.

You've been nominated for the Horsheet Post of the Week™... You can pick up your winnings in a red Piscataway dumpster. It will be on fire.

 

[HOFCeluck]

The coach has grown lazy and arrogant.

The thing is, I want to dispute this, but after reading Francis' take on Boeheim the recruiter, it's hard to do so.

And I @cking hate myself for posting this ...but the more I think about it more I think that if you're going to half-@ss what is arguably the most important part of your job, then maybe it IS time to step aside and let someone who is younger and hungrier take the helm.

I keep on coming back to Gary Williams. I mean the guy was never much of a recruiter (hell he had Carmelo Anthony and Kevin Durant in his backyard and didn't do about it until it was too late). But by the time he hung it up he REALLY stopped caring...to the point where it was year four before his successor had Maryland in the tournament.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Everyone is fond of characterizing us as a 'top 10 program,' but since Carmelo, we have signed only one top 10 recruit. And two top 20s. That doesn't seem to jive with the program ranking. And now there are 'insider' discussions about how JB has been 'reluctant' to hit the recruiting trail outside of an easy geographic excursion.

He got married, has kids, and he's 70. I don't know anyone at that age who has as much energy as when they were 40. It's nature and biology. Maybe you don't want to call that laziness. Fine. I apologize for offending you. Somehow.

We went exclusively to a zone defense - a one-size-fits-all strategy... Doesn't smack of greater coaching effort to me. The NCAA offenses — more effort toward vigilance wouldn't have hurt.

In the past 15 years, he's been increasingly dickish with media. Cantankerousness, as a product of age, plus acclaim, and from accomplishment (NC and "HOF")... Not sure how you define arrogance. I'd wager, though, that if it were Calhoun's behavior, you'd label it as so. JB can be an absolute swell guy. Maybe (probably) even most of the time. Doesn't mean he isn't ALSO arrogant.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

The thing is, I want to dispute this, but after reading Francis' take on Boeheim the recruiter, it's hard to do so.

And I @cking hate myself for posting this ...but the more I think about it more I think that if you're going to half-@ss what is arguably the most important part of your job, then maybe it IS time to step aside and let someone who is younger and hungrier take the helm.

I think we all WANT to dispute this. For some random outsider says "SU sucks," your natural reaction is to defend. Because SU 'is' us. But, among ourselves, can't we have objective, intelligent, critical conversation? Whether you like JB or don't, you should be able to observe and discuss weaknesses and issues. If you want to deny there are problems, show your work. Otherwise, it's kinda like the kid in the playground with his fingers in his ears and eyes slammed shut, screaming, "La-la-la-la-la, I cannot hear you!"

 

[Jack Hall]

Generally false. We've primarily been iso and pick and roll lately because our lead guard play has been subpar these past two years [and a third, factoring in Ennis's limitations / mitake avoidant ball control orientation].

Here's what it REALLY all boils down to: we need improved point guard play. We get that, and a lot of our offensive isses / problems disappear. We need a legitimate lead guard out on the floor who can handle defensive pressure, get the team into half court offensive sets, and make something happen off of the bounce if the play breaks down.

It literally is as simple as that.

Quade Green, come on down.

Who was our legitimate lead guard in 2003 for JBs only title? I think most have to agree GMac was more a shooting guard than a true classic point guard. He did not make much happen off the bounce when a play broke down. In 2003 the offense mostly went thru Carmelo, who obviously was not a pt guard either. Yes he could make something happen off the bounce when a play broke down. But he still wasnt a lead guard. You may very well be correct that we could use a legit lead guard. But not sure JB agrees w you. If he did imo he would have recruited a true point guard for '16/17. Instead he recruited Tyus Battle whom i suspect he will put in a Mike G / Carmelo type role next year as point forward. Should be interesting to see how the experiment goes. My own opinion on Battle is he is slightly ahead of Malachi in terms of overall skills at a similar point in their careers, ie i expect him to put up similar or slightly better #s than a freshman Malachi. Love Battle, (love Mal and Lydon too) but not sure how the experiment with him as a point guard will go. I can see it going much better than G or much worse by end of season. At least JB will have a sophomore Frank H waiting if Battle struggles w the point.

 

[Jack Hall]

I don't know that the offensive problem is systemic or scheme oriented. Seems more like it's not having enough high level talent. JB's system has worked well for a very long time...when he has very talented players to execute the system. Our PG play has been sub par since MCW left. SU has always relied on high scoring forwards and now we don't have that either. Up the recruiting and bring in a true PG not more combo guards.

Yep JB won in 03 because teams couldnt match up w two legit nba guys- Hak and Carm. Its all about having nba level talent. Yeah Gmac hit many many huge 3s. But why do you think he got a lot (altho not all) of wide open looks? Teams had to pay extra atention to our 2 nba guys who were both tremendous finishers, especially around (and above) the rim. Imo JB just needs more talent. Lets see if Mal, Lydon, Battle and Pascal become legit nba prospects next year. You cant fake nba talent, ie what Melo did against Texas and KU; that block by Hak to save the game, had nba written all over it...

 

[rrlbees]

The coach has grown lazy and arrogant.

That sure happened fast. Just a few weeks ago when he came back and we were winning, people were all saying how much energy JB had and how bad he wanted to win.

 

[Shark58]

Who was our legitimate lead guard in 2003 for JBs only title? I think most have to agree GMac was more a shooting guard than a true classic point guard. He did not make much happen off the bounce when a play broke down. In 2003 the offense mostly went thru Carmelo, who obviously was not a pt guard either. Yes he could make something happen off the bounce when a play broke down. But he still wasnt a lead guard. You may very well be correct that we could use a legit lead guard. But not sure JB agrees w you. If he did imo he would have recruited a true point guard for '16/17. Instead he recruited Tyus Battle whom i suspect he will put in a Mike G / Carmelo type role next year as point forward. Should be interesting to see how the experiment goes. My own opinion on Battle is he is slightly ahead of Malachi in terms of overall skills at a similar point in their careers, ie i expect him to put up similar or slightly better #s than a freshman Malachi. Love Battle, (love Mal and Lydon too) but not sure how the experiment with him as a point guard will go. I can see it going much better than G or much worse by end of season. At least JB will have a sophomore Frank H waiting if Battle struggles w the point.

A: Billy E


and for the record, my first thread here was about the lack of PG recruiting. I was right

 

[Jack Hall]

A: Billy E


and for the record, my first thread here was about the lack of PG recruiting. I was right

BE averaged 9 pts and 2.5 assts per game that year. He was hardly some great lead guard. He had 12 and 2 in 27 mins in the title game, CA, HW and GM all played over 30 mins. BE is not the reason SU won the title in '03 altho yes he was a key role player off the bench. Whatever happened to BE after Carmelo left? Anyway semantics.

You may be correct about the lack of point guard recruiting but doesnt change 2 facts: 1) JB did not recruit a classic point guard for next season, altho who knows maybe Kid Mamba will become an outstanding lead (ie combo) guard. 2) JB did not start a true/classic point guard in the one season he won a title...

You seem to think you would be a better coach than JB, good luck with that!!

 

[SoBeCuse]

Yep JB won in 03 because teams couldnt match up w two legit nba guys- Hak and Carm. Its all about having nba level talent. Yeah Gmac hit many many huge 3s. But why do you think he got a lot (altho not all) of wide open looks? Teams had to pay extra atention to our 2 nba guys who were both tremendous finishers, especially around (and above) the rim. Imo JB just needs more talent. Lets see if Mal, Lydon, Battle and Pascal become legit nba prospects next year. You cant fake nba talent, ie what Melo did against Texas and KU; that block by Hak to save the game, had nba written all over it...

I agree. I don't care what position they play but you need a couple I think. Boeheim's good enough to construct the offense around and catering to the skills of those future NBA guys.

 

[Jack Hall]

A: Billy E


and for the record, my first thread here was about the lack of PG recruiting. I was right

Let me ask you this, do you think Tyus Battle or Frank Howard can average 9 pts and 2.5 assists per game next year the way point guard Billy Edelin did in '03 ?

 

[Shark58]

BE averaged 9 pts and 2.5 assts per game that year. He was hardly some great lead guard. He had 12 and 2 in 27 mins in the title game, CA, HW and GM all played over 30 mins. BE is not the reason SU won the title in '03 altho yes he was a key role player off the bench. Whatever happened to BE after Carmelo left? Anyway semantics.

You may be correct about the lack of point guard recruiting but doesnt change 2 facts: 1) JB did not recruit a classic point guard for next season, altho who knows maybe Kid Mamba will become an outstanding lead (ie combo) guard. 2) JB did not start a true/classic point guard in the one season he won a title...

You seem to think you would be a better coach than JB, good luck with that!!

Let me ask you this, do you think Tyus Battle or Frank Howard can average 9 pts and 2.5 assists per game next year the way point guard Billy Edelin did in '03 ?

easy there hoss

you were asking about who was a classic point guard on that team, and while not the greatest definition of "lead guard" Billy certainly played the role of a 1 on that team well. I actually see a lot of similarities to his and Frank's game and hope to see FH used in a similar fashion as BE was next year.

I expect Battle to start and bring the ball up a lot next year. I've never seen the kid play, other than tape, but from I hear he is the real deal. I certainly hope so. If he's the player that he really may be, low double digit scoring average is reasonable. If he has some passing skills, 2-4 assists may be reasonable too. he has some scoring talent around him on the team so when he dishes, A's are achievable.

If Frank gets significant PT at the 1, I'd expect north of 2.5 A/g to be reasonable as well. A few alley oops to big Chuck will help pad the number. As for scoring, 9 may be a stretch. kinda depends what kind of O he shows up with next year and what kind of shooting leash he's given by Jimmy.

ahhh Jimmy, the sacred cow. criticize him at all and out comes the knee-jerk(store ran out of you) reaction of "You seem to think you would be a better coach than JB, good luck with that!!" LOL

I've been a fan long enough to have seen him in the #2 seat on the bench. I love the man and respect the hell out of what he has done for the program. I grew up in the 315 and bleed Orange. All that said, he's far from infallible. I'm a relatively smart individual. I understand basketball, trends, inconsistencies, personal relationships, and some other things as well. I can recognize what I perceive to be flaws, mistakes, etc. and Jimmy makes a number of them. Yes, he's a HOF coach and knows the game much better than I ever will. Yes, he's had tremendous accomplishments that I'll never come close to nearing. Yes, a number of my issues with Jim's coaching is monday morning QB'ing, but much of it isn't.

I don't know if having Cooney inbound the ball would have won us the Pitt game, but I do know I was calling for it to happen before the play. during the official's review we actually had a conversation about it and also how exactly what did happen would happen if Cooney took in pass. was I right? we'll never know, just like we'll never know if a slightly deeper rotation, better player development, running something other than high ball screens, etc. would have been a better answer.

look around the board. not a ton of happy campers at the moment. do you think a good PG would have helped things the past couple of years?

 

[RF2044]

Who was our legitimate lead guard in 2003 for JBs only title? I think most have to agree GMac was more a shooting guard than a true classic point guard. He did not make much happen off the bounce when a play broke down. In 2003 the offense mostly went thru Carmelo, who obviously was not a pt guard either. Yes he could make something happen off the bounce when a play broke down. But he still wasnt a lead guard. You may very well be correct that we could use a legit lead guard. But not sure JB agrees w you. If he did imo he would have recruited a true point guard for '16/17. Instead he recruited Tyus Battle whom i suspect he will put in a Mike G / Carmelo type role next year as point forward. Should be interesting to see how the experiment goes. My own opinion on Battle is he is slightly ahead of Malachi in terms of overall skills at a similar point in their careers, ie i expect him to put up similar or slightly better #s than a freshman Malachi. Love Battle, (love Mal and Lydon too) but not sure how the experiment with him as a point guard will go. I can see it going much better than G or much worse by end of season. At least JB will have a sophomore Frank H waiting if Battle struggles w the point.

We had two point guards that year--GMac and Edelin. Edelin most certainly could do those things, and was dynamic both as a playmaker and passer. GMac might not have been Sherman Douglas, but he was at his best that year because he was the guy who was the third [at best] priority defensively. He was also unique compared to his predecessors at lead guard in that he was a solid three point shooter who was perfectly cast in a complimentary role. Nobody's been harder on GMac and his limitations than I was back then, either--I agree a lot with what you say about his general limitations.

But let's also keep in mind that we had Carmelo Anthony that year when things broke down and we needed someone to make lemonade out of lemons.

And let's also keep in mind that the 2003 team had four guys in the starting lineup who were double figure caliber scorers, and three guys who could knock down threes at a more than respectable clip. We also had two guys off of the bench who could score in double figures [Pace and Edelin], and a backup center who provided quality depth. That was a pretty good team that had balance in terms of inside scoring, size, rebounding, shot blocking, and defense. So I don't know that referencing the 2003 team works compared to most of our other squads.

I like Battle a lot, too. I just don't see him as a lead guard, and think we would have some of the same issues that we have this year if he were cast as a PG full time. Fortunately, next year he won't be--because I expect Howard to improve as a function of the experience he gained this year, and to play a major role off the bench playing alongside both Battle and Richardson. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Howard play starter's minutes, a la Scoop in 2009-2010, on a very good offensive team.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

We have always been a bit of a renegade program. I wonder if the investigation kept JB from recruiting some kids who could potentially cause problems?

 

[Ringostar57]

New offensive identity? Does anyone want a want a Paul Westhead type of coach?

 

[Kowbelkat]

I really think this is a generalization based just on this season. JB likes to run the offense through his most reliable scorers. When we were playing well early in the season, we were getting production from a lot of guys besides Gbinje. As the season wore on, Roberson, Cooney, and Richardson all faded, so we became much easier to defend.

Have you watched the offense the last few years they actually lower the free taco score our offense is awful blame jimmy

 

[Ghost]

A: Billy E


and for the record, my first thread here was about the lack of PG recruiting. I was right

Billy must have some eligiblity left - can he come back. God, I loved watching that kid play.

 

[JAXCUSE]

Billy must have some eligiblity left - can he come back. God, I loved watching that kid play.

Agree with Shark58 100%. SU would not have won in 2003 without Billy E...
The offensive balance and Carmelo/Hak aside...
That kid could run a team and play with pace. Fast, slow tempo, break a defense down with the dribble, distribute and find the open man. And post up if he had to. Ask Chris Thomas from ND...
The only thing his game lacked was range on the jump shot.
A real shame we couldn't see more of him.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Agree with Shark58 100%. SU would not have won in 2003 without Billy E...
The offensive balance and Carmelo/Hak aside...
That kid could run a team and play with pace. Fast, slow tempo, break a defense down with the dribble, distribute and find the open man. And post up if he had to. Ask Chris Thomas from ND...
The only thing his game lacked was range on the jump shot.
A real shame we couldn't see more of him.

I see what you did there

 

[Shark58]

I see what you did there