It boils down to this we need a new offensive identity and now

[Jack Hall]

do you think a good PG would have helped things the past couple of years?

Having a good true point guard certainly couldnt hurt but not sure its some panacea. The last time we had a true point here (Ennis) we lost in the round of 32. Ennis was drafted by nba that year but we still struggled offensively. The year before that yes we got to the Final Four with more or less a pure point guard MCW but that team struggled offensively also. Im sure most will agree watching IU and MU games, it was more MCW's (and the rest of the team's) defensive skills that won those games than some dominating lead guard or point guard skills. MCW didnt do much against Michigan, imo he could have used one or two more scorers around him in that game. But judging by the loss to Dayton in '14 , i dont think some stud freshman point guard will necessarily predict any success for JB. Its also worth debating if offense really let this team down this year as much as some of us claim it did. With G as a supposedly struggling pg we just put up 71 against Pitt. With nba level true pg Ennis, he needed to hit a hail mary 3 just to total 58 in that win against Pitt in '14. In '13 we put up 55 against Pitt with NBA level MCW as the pg.

Again JB won it all in '03 and did not start a true pg. imo Gmac was no more of a true pg than G is this year. Interesting in '03 and this yr both Gmac and G averaged 4.4 assists per game as starting PGs (Edelin averaged 2.5 assts as as backup pg while Howard averaged 1.8). Imo Gmac was obviously more unselfish (and hence had a slightly better assist to turnover ratio) than G but i imagine if G had Carm and Hak around him he would be slightly more unselfish too.

Lets see if Mal, Lydon , Battle , Pascal etc etc will get it done next year. Who knows maybe Moyer will be as much a pleasant surprise as Lydon was/is this year and maybe Howard makes that big sophomore leap vaguely similar to how MCW did. Should be fun to watch. Go Cuse

 

[IthacaMatt]

Do we still believe Ennis' walking the ball up wasn't Boeheim's call? I mean there is no way he wasn't playing the way he was asked to be Boeheim without the world knowing it.

Boeheim has been about running clock and shortening the game for the last few years. SU didn't run a ton with MCW/Triche/CJ/Grant/Southerland either.

No, that's not true. MCW and Triche pushed the ball a lot. Ennis pulled up about 20 feet from the basket almost every time we had an opportunity to run. And, yes, I agree it was Boeheim's call - "whatever you do, don't turn the ball over."

 

[IthacaMatt]

Again JB won it all in '03 and did not start a true pg. imo Gmac was no more of a true pg than G is this year. Interesting in '03 and this yr both Gmac and G averaged 4.4 assists per game as starting PGs (Edelin averaged 2.5 assts as as backup pg while Howard averaged 1.8). Imo Gmac was obviously more unselfish (and hence had a slightly better assist to turnover ratio) than G but i imagine if G had Carm and Hak around him he would be slightly more unselfish too.

Yes, GMac was really a 2 guard, but we did have an elite PG in Billy Edelin, once he worked his way into shape from the long lay-off. That allowed Gerry to move off the ball and our halfcourt offense actually got better when the "sub" came in.

 

[two3zone]

easy there hoss

you were asking about who was a classic point guard on that team, and while not the greatest definition of "lead guard" Billy certainly played the role of a 1 on that team well. I actually see a lot of similarities to his and Frank's game and hope to see FH used in a similar fashion as BE was next year.

I expect Battle to start and bring the ball up a lot next year. I've never seen the kid play, other than tape, but from I hear he is the real deal. I certainly hope so. If he's the player that he really may be, low double digit scoring average is reasonable. If he has some passing skills, 2-4 assists may be reasonable too. he has some scoring talent around him on the team so when he dishes, A's are achievable.

If Frank gets significant PT at the 1, I'd expect north of 2.5 A/g to be reasonable as well. A few alley oops to big Chuck will help pad the number. As for scoring, 9 may be a stretch. kinda depends what kind of O he shows up with next year and what kind of shooting leash he's given by Jimmy.

ahhh Jimmy, the sacred cow. criticize him at all and out comes the knee-jerk(store ran out of you) reaction of "You seem to think you would be a better coach than JB, good luck with that!!" LOL

I've been a fan long enough to have seen him in the #2 seat on the bench. I love the man and respect the hell out of what he has done for the program. I grew up in the 315 and bleed Orange. All that said, he's far from infallible. I'm a relatively smart individual. I understand basketball, trends, inconsistencies, personal relationships, and some other things as well. I can recognize what I perceive to be flaws, mistakes, etc. and Jimmy makes a number of them. Yes, he's a HOF coach and knows the game much better than I ever will. Yes, he's had tremendous accomplishments that I'll never come close to nearing. Yes, a number of my issues with Jim's coaching is monday morning QB'ing, but much of it isn't.

I don't know if having Cooney inbound the ball would have won us the Pitt game, but I do know I was calling for it to happen before the play. during the official's review we actually had a conversation about it and also how exactly what did happen would happen if Cooney took in pass. was I right? we'll never know, just like we'll never know if a slightly deeper rotation, better player development, running something other than high ball screens, etc. would have been a better answer.

look around the board. not a ton of happy campers at the moment. do you think a good PG would have helped things the past couple of years?

Best post ever.

 

[dollarbill44]

Yep JB won in 03 because teams couldnt match up w two legit nba guys- Hak and Carm. Its all about having nba level talent. Yeah Gmac hit many many huge 3s. But why do you think he got a lot (altho not all) of wide open looks? Teams had to pay extra atention to our 2 nba guys who were both tremendous finishers, especially around (and above) the rim. Imo JB just needs more talent. Lets see if Mal, Lydon, Battle and Pascal become legit nba prospects next year. You cant fake nba talent, ie what Melo did against Texas and KU; that block by Hak to save the game, had nba written all over it...

Hak was not a legit NBA talent in 2003. He was a raw sophomore with a lot of athletic ability, but he certainly wasn't a matchup issue for opposing teams that year.

 

[Bayside44]

Hak was not a legit NBA talent in 2003. He was a raw sophomore with a lot of athletic ability, but he certainly wasn't a matchup issue for opposing teams that year.

That same raw talent would've walked out the door in today's NBA.

As a weak side forward he was a massive plus.

 

[Newhouser]

We are our best when we have guards that can play PG and SG. Triche allowed us to do that for 4 years and it was under appreciated. There were multiple running mates (Andy, Scoop, Dion, MCW), but the having multi-position guards is key for us. The recovery our zone requires can make smaller PG's a tough fit.

I also thinks our best teams have a player who can rebound from the SF spot. It is essential in our zone, and when we have it (Melo, Wes) we tend to have better results.

 

[dollarbill44]

That same raw talent would've walked out the door in today's NBA.

As a weak side forward he was a massive plus.

True, but a lot of people leave early who have no business doing so. He wasn't a match-up problem in '03. '04 is when he became a man.

 

[KevMonstah]

The 2003 team had options, four guys who could make moves with the ball and get shots, this year's team has maybe two, but the other
key thing about the title team was it could SCORE. I don't have it offhand, but I remember Troy Weaver's interview saying they averaged
80ppg, almost ten points a game more than this year's 70.2, which ranks it 251st according to ESPN. Whether you play great defense or
not, to win, they need to score, and I think the recruiting, in looking for guys who fit the zone, has kinda placed less of a focus on a good
offense. They held people to 65ppg, #39 in the country, which is great, but, they don't win enough that way.

And I'm sorry, but an improved offense is not "well, last year we focused on the post with Rak, but we couldn't hit threes. This year, since
we have better shooters, we'll do better, cuz we'll shot more threes." That is not coaching. What it did was turn SU into what they attempt
to turn opponents into when they face the zone: a perimeter passing team that passes around, around, around, and as the shot clock winds
down, has to go for a three. They get a quick guy who can beat someone one the dribble, and they work some kind of post offense, anything,
and they'll improve. They used to be celebrated for an offense, now it's just dull.

Kev

 

[cuseinseattle]

We have a defensive identity and it works against most teams not named Virginia/Pitt. Our defense is the identity of the program.

Our offensive identity is just NBA Iso and pick roll. We run the curl play for our designated 2 guard but don't do much more on offense. This has to change. Expecting to fit round pegs in square holes has stagnated the offense since 2012.

The program needs a new offensive identity. We have neglected the offense and if anyone asks this question it is met with the defenders of the wall. Nobody wants JB to be gone but expecting adjustments is not blasphemy.

Our offensive identity doesn't need a tweak it needs an overhaul.

What are you suggesting? Are you going to propose an idea?

 

[Zelda Zonk]

That sure happened fast. Just a few weeks ago when he came back and we were winning, people were all saying how much energy JB had and how bad he wanted to win.

Sideline behavior is not representative of the other 21 hours of the day. Wasn't it just a few years ago that the interwebs posted a picture of a dozing JB in a gym?

Sure, after missing 8 games, he came back with fire. To be expected. Reminded me of a boss I had when I was young. 71. Came back from a vacation full of vim and vigor. At least, that's what clients saw in meetings. In the spaces in between, though, he was napping on the floor in his office, falling asleep in internal meetings, and making excuses for not wanting to go here or there to find new business...

No one doubts he wants to win. I'm just suggesting he's not so brilliant that he managed to find a way to defeat Father Time.

 

[kirbivore]

True, but a lot of people leave early who have no business doing so. He wasn't a match-up problem in '03. '04 is when he became a man.

Royal Ivey disagrees

 

[dollarbill44]

Royal Ivey disagrees

Best tea-bag ever.