Joel Berry returning

[HOFCeluck]

I honestly believe it is the scheme they are in at SU. Unfair or not I believe there is that zone stigma scouts, agents, friends, and family are in their ear about. The offensive side of the ball isn't pretty either. They say bye-bye as soon as possible. Not everyone needed the money like McCullough. Also, Mal and Lydon both probably saw the lack of pieces and/or empty roster they were staring at for the following season and said..."gulp." I'm sure Lydon loves playing C here. Ennis has been discussed ad nauseam about making the right move since he would've slipped down the draft board the following year and already reached his ceiling, imo. It's like the perfect storm working against us.

It may be that. But the common theme among guys returning is that they're just not projected as NBA players. Brunson was maybe a second rounder. I didn't see Joel Berry's name or Lammers' in any mock draft.

 

[Cheriehoop]

I honestly believe it is the scheme they are in at SU. Unfair or not I believe there is that zone stigma scouts, agents, friends, and family are in their ear about. The offensive side of the ball isn't pretty either. They say bye-bye as soon as possible. Not everyone needed the money like McCullough. Also, Mal and Lydon both probably saw the lack of pieces and/or empty roster they were staring at for the following season and said..."gulp." I'm sure Lydon loves playing C here. Ennis has been discussed ad nauseam about making the right move since he would've slipped down the draft board the following year and already reached his ceiling, imo. It's like the perfect storm working against us.

Your theory if true should also effect the NBA' s desire for our players which definitely hasn't happened. If anything, the kids we recruit seem to be more attractive to the NBA draft than ever.

 

[SoBeCuse]

NOBODY has a lifelong dream of playing college hoops.
They dream of playing in the NBA.
And getting there as quickly as possible.

The only things Mal & Lydon saw staring at them the next season, was the fat stacks of cash they'd earn as potential 1st round draft picks, vs playing for free for another year, and risking having their draft status decline - which is what happens to about 98% of guys who come back, when they could have left sooner.

Well, that is a given re: the dream. Of course. One more year at SU wouldn't have killed Mali's stock, though. I think Marcus Paige's stock was as high as it ever was after his soph year but he returned. Of course Paige had superior talent at UNC compared to SU's which was attractive to come back and play with. I agree with you but just believe it is a bit simplified of a stand. The roster/system one would be playing with and in forgoing the draft is a factor to some degree I would think.

 

[br801]

I honestly believe it is the scheme they are in at SU. Unfair or not I believe there is that zone stigma scouts, agents, friends, and family are in their ear about. The offensive side of the ball isn't pretty either. They say bye-bye as soon as possible. Not everyone needed the money like McCullough. Also, Mal and Lydon both probably saw the lack of pieces and/or empty roster they were staring at for the following season and said..."gulp." I'm sure Lydon loves playing C here. Ennis has been discussed ad nauseam about making the right move since he would've slipped down the draft board the following year and already reached his ceiling, imo. It's like the perfect storm working against us.

It's pretty damn hard to even make it to the NBA. For the most part, players leave when a good opportunity to do so presents itself.

Eleven SU players appeared in an NBA game this season. That seems like a lot to me. If there is a stigma surrounding the program, it sure isn't scaring away NBA talent, and it sure isn't stopping NBA teams from drafting and signing SU players.

 

[billsin01]

I honestly believe it is the scheme they are in at SU. Unfair or not I believe there is that zone stigma scouts, agents, friends, and family are in their ear about. The offensive side of the ball isn't pretty either. They say bye-bye as soon as possible. Not everyone needed the money like McCullough. Also, Mal and Lydon both probably saw the lack of pieces and/or empty roster they were staring at for the following season and said..."gulp." I'm sure Lydon loves playing C here. Ennis has been discussed ad nauseam about making the right move since he would've slipped down the draft board the following year and already reached his ceiling, imo. It's like the perfect storm working against us.

Don't disagree with any of that really. I might quibble a bit with the empty roster Lydon is looking at in the sense that Battle is a really nice player, at a minimum, and Thompson abysmal defense unfortunately obscured the story of just how phenomenal his frosh season was offensively. But either way, those three would be three nice horses to run with, IMO.

Regardless, it's a good post. I think the one thing I'd add, however, is that it's interesting to look at the players roy has brought in. Of the bigs the last few years -- Johnson, Meeks, Joel James, Hicks, Maye, Bradley -- not many of those guys scream NBA. Maybe Bradley. Even Johnson, who had a phenomenal senior season, didn't do anything in the NBA as yet (not sure if maybe there was an injury). The PGs (Berry/Paige) are both around 6-foot, so not prototypical nba guys. Even the 2s/3s, while there's been more talent, still haven't had nba scouts drooling -- mcadoo, poinson, jackson, nate britt, kenny williams, Tokoto (even though he left early), leslie mcdonald. You'd have to go back to Hairston to find the last first-rounder and even Justin Jackson is looking at the end of round 1 (was in the second round for many of the mock drafts pre-season and even during the season).

So maybe it's the system -- wouldn't doubt that has something to do with it -- and yes there's a ton of mcd's kids, but ultimately it seems like Roy has built a roster that develops each year and is pretty consistently flush with veteran players. That seems like the defining characteristic of these teams more so than pure talent.

Who knows, it's really tricky trying to recruit these days. That is the one true fact.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Your theory if true should also effect the NBA' s desire for our players which definitely hasn't happened. If anything, the kids we recruit seem to be more attractive to the NBA draft than ever.

That is true. Hopefully it won't decline since they aren't producing really in the league. Obviously those ideal measurables/length/wingspan are factors. Perfect example is Mal. Mal vs Alonzo Trier? Trier has short arms and is a little shorter than Mal. That is what is keeping him in the second round and why he is returning. I happen to think Trier is better player now and will have a better career and longevity in the NBA. It's a weird system.

 

[billsin01]

NOBODY has a lifelong dream of playing college hoops.
They dream of playing in the NBA.
And getting there as quickly as possible.

The only things Mal & Lydon saw staring at them the next season, was the fat stacks of cash they'd earn as potential 1st round draft picks, vs playing for free for another year, and risking having their draft status decline - which is what happens to about 98% of guys who come back, when they could have left sooner.

True, but the only thing better than fat stacks of cash are even fatter stacks of cash for a longer duration. From a developmental standpoint I sometimes wonder if the rush to get there or the almighty determining factor -- draft status -- are as important as actually being ready to play at that level when you get there.

Edit: It'll be interesting to see what happens with Justin Jackson. Could have gone last year, returned, had a huge year and that effort might sneak him into the first round. JP Tokoto left the second he could and he was last seen racking up 12 ppg for Rio Grande in the D League.

 

[SoBeCuse]

It's pretty damn hard to even make it to the NBA. For the most part, players leave when a good opportunity to do so presents itself.

Eleven SU players appeared in an NBA game this season. That seems like a lot to me. If there is a stigma surrounding the program, it sure isn't scaring away NBA talent, and it sure isn't stopping NBA teams from drafting and signing SU players.

View attachment 95612

No question. Awfully difficult to stick in the NBA. The D-League is loaded with some great former college players who maybe just don't have the proper size to position ratio/measurables or certain skills are lacking. The Rio Grande team for instance has three former McD All-Americans on their roster as well as guys like JP Takoto and the other Onukau kid from Louisville.

 

[Madbiker]

Can you believe this? Berry would have played 1 year at SU and been off. How does Roy keep these guys coming back?

 

[Melancer46]

I find these threads where SU fans are blown away that players projected to go undrafted decide to return to school to be highly entertaining. The reason these guys are returning is because they basically have no choice.

 

[jordoo]

His mistake was canning all those 3s early in his first year. 8 in one game?

Exhibition game if I recall. It may have convinced the staff not to redshirt him though.

 

[721Comstock]

True, but the only thing better than fat stacks of cash are even fatter stacks of cash for a longer duration. From a developmental standpoint I sometimes wonder if the rush to get there or the almighty determining factor -- draft status -- are as important as actually being ready to play at that level when you get there.

There is zero evidence that going back to college is better for long-term player development.

And logically it makes sense, that being able to practice and play full-time, with professional-level staff and competition, would be more beneficial for development
vs.
a limited amount of practice time in college (and having to attend those pesky classes - or at least pretending to, if you go to UNC or UK ), and lesser competition.

You can't get more for longer, if you never get there in the first place.
Getting drafted as high and as quickly as possible, is Job One.
You don't get a 2nd contract if you never got the 1st.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Those guys have some serious bball talent coming into UNC. Meeks early on had nice touch around the rim, could rebound, had great hands, etc. Berry and Paige could play right away. Not much of an adjustment. Now I guess that should be the case since many are McD guys. Not necessarily NBA measurables but good bball players. Berry kept improving as well, especially from 3.

 

[Briancuse]

There is zero evidence that going back to college is better for long-term player development.

And logically it makes sense, that being able to practice and play full-time, with professional-level staff and competition, would be more beneficial for development
vs.
a limited amount of practice time in college (and having to attend those pesky classes - or at least pretending to, if you go to UNC or UK ), and lesser competition.

You can't get more for longer, if you never get there in the first place.
Getting drafted as high and as quickly as possible, is Job One.
You don't get a 2nd contract if you never got the 1st.

And you can't get the 2nd if you aren't ready to play in the Nba, and are bouncing back and forth between the d-league

 

[br801]

No question. Awfully difficult to stick in the NBA. The D-League is loaded with some great former college players who maybe just don't have the proper size to position ratio/measurables or certain skills are lacking. The Rio Grande team for instance has three former McD All-Americans on their roster as well as guys like JP Takoto and the other Onukau kid from Louisville.

I know I've said this on here before, but fewer than 5,000 people have ever played in even one NBA or ABA game.

Obviously, you need to be very skilled to get there, but timing and good fortune also is critical. That's why I never begrudge the decisions any of these guys make to leave early.

 

[721Comstock]

And you can't get the 2nd if you aren't ready to play in the Nba, and are bouncing back and forth between the d-league

Thank you Captain Obvious.

If you're not good enough to earn that 2nd contract, then you should thank your lucky stars you ever got the first one!!
Fab Melo says hi!! So does Donte. And Jonny.
And maybe MCW and probably Ennis.

But if you get drafted in the First Round, it's frankly irrelevant where you play, as you're still getting paid millions more than the ZERO $'s you'd earn in college that year, with exactly zero guarantees that you'll be "better prepared for the NBA" having spent that time in college, vs. the D-league.

I'm not sure why I'm even bothering discussing this with you. :noidea:

You'd have every player (at least for Syracuse) stay for 4 years, regardless of how that might negatively impact their ability to get drafted highly.

 

[Cusefan0307]

That is true. Hopefully it won't decline since they aren't producing really in the league. Obviously those ideal measurables/length/wingspan are factors. Perfect example is Mal. Mal vs Alonzo Trier? Trier has short arms and is a little shorter than Mal. That is what is keeping him in the second round and why he is returning. I happen to think Trier is better player now and will have a better career and longevity in the NBA. It's a weird system.

Fans here tend to just look at college stats to project NBA production.

GM's are looking at what a prospect potentially has to offer down the road.

Trier is a guy who's appeared to max out physically and also has the stigma of taking PED's. He could be a good pro, I just don't see him having a lot of growth left, but people said the same thing about Malcolm brogdon and look at him this year.

Mali and Lydon unfortunately are both seen as good players with potential to be even. Enter with some seasoning. GM's probably are more confident those guys can grow into something where other guys are closer to finished products.

 

[sufandu]

Tyler Ennis was like 5'11" buck 80 soaking wet...

He was measured at 6'1" without shoes 6'2 1/2" with shoes at the combine. 180 is spot on.

 

[Cheriehoop]

No one had Ennis, Mal, Lydon, Wes, Hakkim, KJ, Mike G etc on the NBA's radar coming out of high school despite their measurables. There isn't one of those players that could seriously considered as having being cheated from earning NBA money by attending college. There was no huge buzz when they committed about being NBA ready.

Compare their market value coming out of high school to what it ended up after playing for SU. Even Jerami Grant was #96 in his high school class (9th at his position). I seriously doubt that if he went to his other college offers - Maryland, Rutgers, Notre Dame, Oklahoma, Virginia Tech that he would have been drafted after his sophomore season. NC St was his only other offer so he may have even tried to leave after his freshman year draftable or not - heck even Maverick Rowan declares early from there as did Cat Barber last year.(they have had many declare but only 2 drafted in the past 10 years) Playing for JB and SU seems to put players in a position to get noticed by the NBA and get drafted. Great for the players but not so good for team continuity. Add in the various restrictions and people are surprised?

 

[Briancuse]

Thank you Captain Obvious.

If you're not good enough to earn that 2nd contract, then you should thank your lucky stars you ever got the first one!!
Fab Melo says hi!! So does Donte. And Jonny.
And maybe MCW and probably Ennis.

But if you get drafted in the First Round, it's frankly irrelevant where you play, as you're still getting paid millions more than the ZERO $'s you'd earn in college that year, with exactly zero guarantees that you'll be "better prepared for the NBA" having spent that time in college, vs. the D-league.

I'm not sure why I'm even bothering discussing this with you. :noidea:

You'd have every player (at least for Syracuse) stay for 4 years, regardless of how that might negatively impact their ability to get drafted highly.

Maybe some of them aren't good enough, because they leave too early before they can fully develop their games. I am not against guys leaving, Dion,Mcw,Flynn, I thought should have left when they did.

 

[721Comstock]

Maybe some of them aren't good enough, because they leave too early before they can fully develop their games. I am not against guys leaving, Dion,Mcw,Flynn, I thought should have left when they did.

I'll say this once more, and very slowly, so you can understand it:

There is ZERO evidence that players "fully develop their games" better in college, than in the NBA/D-league.

Regardless of what you believe/keep posting about incessantly.

For any example you might choose to attempt to prove your point, there are dozens that prove the opposite.

If coming back is so freaking awesome for improving one's game (which honestly, is borderline irrelevant - it's about improving your draft position first and foremost), then how come all those guys from UNC aren't lotto picks now??
They all came back, again and again.

 

[Briancuse]

I'll say this once more, and very slowly, so you can understand it:

There is ZERO evidence that players "fully develop their games" better in college, than in the NBA/D-league.

Regardless of what you believe/keep posting about incessantly.

For any example you might choose to attempt to prove your point, there are dozens that prove the opposite.

If coming back is so freaking awesome for improving one's game (which honestly, is borderline irrelevant - it's about improving your draft position first and foremost), then how come all those guys from UNC aren't lotto picks now??
They all came back, again and again.

Just because you say guys can't get better, doesn't make it true. Guess what its pretty easy to say that Ennis or Malachi wouldn't have improved, because no one will ever know, because they left. What happens if a guy like Berry stays at Unc for four years, gets taken in the 2nd round, blows up, and earns a massive 2nd contract?

 

[721Comstock]

Just because you say guys can't get better, doesn't make it true. Guess what its pretty easy to say that Ennis or Malachi wouldn't have improved, because no one will ever know, because they left. What happens if a guy like Berry stays at Unc for four years, gets taken in the 2nd round, blows up, and earns a massive 2nd contract?

What happens if aliens land in a UFO and steal his basketball powers?

You keep talking about the exceptions, like they're somehow the rule. :blah:

Guys absolutely get better playing in college over time (usually - Robey says hi.)
It doesn't mean they wouldn't get better, faster, if they could devote 100% of their time to doing so, rather than also having to be a college student.

Getting drafted is about POTENTIAL.
If you stay longer, and even if you improve, you then have less of that magical potential to realize in the future.
NBA teams are all hoping to hit the jackpot, by drafting somebody who gets a LOT better over time, while playing for them.
They don't really want the finished product, yet.

 

[Briancuse]

What happens if aliens land in a UFO and steal his basketball powers?

You keep talking about the exceptions, like they're somehow the rule. :blah:

Guys absolutely get better playing in college over time (usually - Robey says hi.)
It doesn't mean they wouldn't get better, faster, if they could devote 100% of their time to doing so, rather than also having to be a college student.

Getting drafted is about POTENTIAL.
If you stay longer, and even if you improve, you then have less of that magical potential to realize in the future.
NBA teams are all hoping to hit the jackpot, by drafting somebody who gets a LOT better over time, while playing for them.
They don't really want the finished product, yet.

Its not an exception, lots of guys improve their games. I really don't know what happened to Robey, I don't think he knows what happened to himself. You try to do the best you can for your long term future, not a few years. Who is better off, the guy who leaves after one year, isn't ready for the Nba, makes a few million, and is out of the league in 3 years? Or the guy who stays 4 years, is better than the spot he is drafted in, and gets a huge 2nd contract?

 

[721Comstock]

Its not an exception, lots of guys improve their games. I really don't know what happened to Robey, I don't think he knows what happened to himself. You try to do the best you can for your long term future, not a few years. Who is better off, the guy who leaves after one year, isn't ready for the Nba, makes a few million, and is out of the league in 3 years? Or the guy who stays 4 years, is better than the spot he is drafted in, and gets a huge 2nd contract?

Given that the first option is by far the norm, the first guy.

The guys who fit that 2nd description are as scarce as hen's teeth.

There are 30 guys who get drafted in the first round, each and every year.
Some of them go on to earn massive 2nd contracts. And many don't.
But they ALL earned millions on that first contact. GUARANTEED.

Guys who stay 4 years, get in somehow (likely not as a first rounder, since Seniors are almost NEVER drafted in the 1st anymore)) and play really well, and then get the massive 2nd contract, are like once every few years.

Which of those is the better odds?