John Bol is likely staying

[Zelda Zonk]

I’m not a fan of bringing Washington back, but I agree with your general take.

Joe is a shooter. GMAC was a shooter. A White was a shooter. Put them all in an open gym and they each will dazzle you. Give each an open look and you’ll probably get the same pct. What separates their game pct is size and shot selection (AWhite hit a ton of well guarded shots because of his size).

Gmac took tough shots out of necessity (few other scoring options his Jr / Sr years).

AWhite took fewer forced shots because he had Gillon and Lydon. Helping to spread the floor. And forced very few, probably passed up more good shots that the number he forced.

Joe should shoot a higher percentage, but his shot selection (mental part of the game) is borderline horrible. He is flanked by great shooters. He should limit his game to higher pct shots. Especially next year.

But Joe is a shooter.

That's sorta what i was gonna say. Being a "shooter" is context-dependent. There's in the gym/practice, there's against low-level competition, there's against high-level competition, and there's clutch.

If you're a lights out practice shooter, it doesn't necessarily mean that translates to ACC Games, when the defenders are athletic, big, quick, and you have to actually make choices, exercise judgment, rely on your teammates, recognize situations... Joe isn't quick, tall, or athletic enough to shoot high percentages with the same skills at this level. Yet. He isn't making the decisions that lead to better percentages at this level. Yet. But, if you characterize him by his skill—shooting (in a vacuum)—he's a "shooter." That just doesn't seem to be an exceptionally meaningful term, though.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Joe should shoot a higher percentage, but his shot selection (mental part of the game) is borderline horrible.

You know, it just hit me, Joe's kinda like what they call a "bad ball" hitter in baseball, a dude that can swing at a pitch outside of the strike zone and make decent contact often enough that they feel confident doing so, even though it's not really what you want to have happen and the likelihood of success isn't all that good, especially relative to swinging at pitches in the strike zone.

Joe makes just enough of his bad shots that in his head it probably really blurs the line between what a good shot looks like and what a bad shot is. I think if he does figure out how to take smarter shots, yeah, he'll lose some makes, but his overall percentages and efficiency will be much, much better.

A lot of times those bad shots come when the team starts cooking, too. He has a weird, Jason Hart-esque sense for that. Like he feels like he's not contributing or something when everyone around him is getting buckets. It's a goofy kind of heat check.

 

[dasher]

Being NYS alltime scorer literally has nothing to do prove he is a good shooter.

It’s a stat to show he is a good scorer. That is totally different.
So that point does nothing to prove the point he is a shooter. When his percentages again in college tell a different story.

Volume tells what a player’s true shooting percentage actually is.
Volume allows a player to enhance their percentages playing more and getting more shots.

Thus if Torrence gets the minutes and shots Joe has gotten his first two years all my statement is saying he could match the stats.

Howard wouldn’t be a good 4th guard Just because he knows the system.
We need a quality 4th option so if the starting PG struggled and Torrence struggled we have a chance to win.
Washington couldn’t get minutes on an NIT team if he wants to play he isn’t coming here.
Having an actual PG is kinda important but we as a fanbase don’t care about that.

Great teams have good PG play not average PG play.

So with Joe as the pt, Syracuse can only be good, at best? And yet you wouldn't take my bet on a 7 1/2 seed. The talk just doesn't match that. As for Joe, his numbers will get better as he gets older. Just like most of the good shooters on Syracuse have.

 

[Jake]

You know, it just hit me, Joe's kinda like what they call a "bad ball" hitter in baseball, a dude that can swing at a pitch outside of the strike zone and make decent contact often enough that they feel confident doing so, even though it's not really what you want to have happen and the likelihood of success isn't all that good, especially relative to swinging at pitches in the strike zone.

Joe makes just enough of his bad shots that in his head it probably really blurs the line between what a good shot looks like and what a bad shot is. I think if he does figure out how to take smarter shots, yeah, he'll lose some makes, but his overall percentages and efficiency will be much, much better.

A lot of times those bad shots come when the team starts cooking, too. He has a weird, Jason Hart-esque sense for that. Like he feels like he's not contributing or something when everyone around him is getting buckets. It's a goofy kind of heat check.

I really like that analogy.

 

[HOFCeluck]

You know, it just hit me, Joe's kinda like what they call a "bad ball" hitter in baseball, a dude that can swing at a pitch outside of the strike zone and make decent contact often enough that they feel confident doing so, even though it's not really what you want to have happen and the likelihood of success isn't all that good, especially relative to swinging at pitches in the strike zone.

Joe makes just enough of his bad shots that in his head it probably really blurs the line between what a good shot looks like and what a bad shot is. I think if he does figure out how to take smarter shots, yeah, he'll lose some makes, but his overall percentages and efficiency will be much, much better.

A lot of times those bad shots come when the team starts cooking, too. He has a weird, Jason Hart-esque sense for that. Like he feels like he's not contributing or something when everyone around him is getting buckets. It's a goofy kind of heat check.

I don’t think it’s a surprise to learn Joe gets distracted when anyone starts cooking.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I don’t think it’s a surprise to learn Joe gets distracted when anyone starts cooking.

 

[Orangezoo]

I don’t think it’s a surprise to learn Joe gets distracted when anyone starts cooking.

Yeah that's a walk off homer. Not gonna top that one.

 

[SU in Hershey]

You know, it just hit me, Joe's kinda like what they call a "bad ball" hitter in baseball, a dude that can swing at a pitch outside of the strike zone and make decent contact often enough that they feel confident doing so, even though it's not really what you want to have happen and the likelihood of success isn't all that good, especially relative to swinging at pitches in the strike zone.

Joe makes just enough of his bad shots that in his head it probably really blurs the line between what a good shot looks like and what a bad shot is. I think if he does figure out how to take smarter shots, yeah, he'll lose some makes, but his overall percentages and efficiency will be much, much better.

A lot of times those bad shots come when the team starts cooking, too. He has a weird, Jason Hart-esque sense for that. Like he feels like he's not contributing or something when everyone around him is getting buckets. It's a goofy kind of heat check.

Yeah, I like this take. I think Yogi Berra was known for being a great "bad ball" hitter and it got him into the Hall of Fame!
Here's my problem with Girard's shooting: If you miss 100% of the shots you DON'T take (h/t Wayne Gretzky), and JG III misses ~65% of the shots he DOES take, then that means he misses 165% of ALL shots. I just don't think that's very good...but I could be wrong.

 

[Orangezoo]

Something else on Joe- he needs to study Buddy's approach. Buddy struggled at times with his footwork being inconsistent. It was the one thing holding him back before he finally broke through and likely that was impacted as well by the pauses and getting CoVid.

Joe has the same issue. Shot selection is one thing but he misses a lot of open looks too. It's all footwork and consistency. I don't think he is ever a 40 plus guy but absolutely should be 36-38 pct given the open look opportunities that he gets. Coming off screens, stepping in and pulling up his footwork from the knees down should look the same and it doesn't. In the tournament it looked much better but he needs to pair that with better shot selection too.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Yeah, I like this take. I think Yogi Berra was known for being a great "bad ball" hitter and it got him into the Hall of Fame!
Here's my problem with Girard's shooting: If you miss 100% of the shots you DON'T take (h/t Wayne Gretzky), and JG III misses ~65% of the shots he DOES take, then that means he misses 165% of ALL shots. I just don't think that's very good...but I could be wrong.

Vlad Guerrero was a big time bad ball hitter.

 

[Jake]

Vlad Guerrero was a big time bad ball hitter.

Greatest line - by someone I don’t recall- about why the DR produced so many good bad ball hitters...”you don’t walk your way off the island.”

 

[Day2]

Vlad Guerrero was a big time bad ball hitter.

Willie McGee

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Willie McGee

Rafael Devers (current Red Sox). This guy can lean out over the plate, drop a hand, and still pull the ball for a homah. He does stuff like that, and the announcers are like, 'there he goes again.'

You wonder how much better he could be if he didn't swing at pitches he shouldn't be able to do anything with, but then you wonder what you lose, because he is able to do good things with those pitches.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

I’m not a fan of bringing Washington back, but I agree with your general take.

Joe is a shooter. GMAC was a shooter. A White was a shooter. Put them all in an open gym and they each will dazzle you. Give each an open look and you’ll probably get the same pct. What separates their game pct is size and shot selection (AWhite hit a ton of well guarded shots because of his size).

Joe should shoot a higher percentage, but his shot selection (mental part of the game) is borderline horrible. He is flanked by great shooters. He should limit his game to higher pct shots. Especially next year.

But Joe is a shooter.

Yes, Joe is a shooter, along the Gmac lines. JG3 needs better shot selection. But much like Gmac, moving a shooter to the pg can be a challenge to their pct. It is an adjustment that AWhite didn't have to contend with. Buddy/A White had the advantage of position.

Why aren't you a fan of bringing H Wash back? Do you really think SU can get better than that?

 

[Alsacs]

So how would you approach it differently then if you were the coach? Go back in time, sanctions included. How do you fix it? Since it's not gonna work?

I would actually target a point guard who can actually do a little bit of everything like Most good teams have. College basketball guard play is more important than any other position. Our guard play has not been really good since Michael Carter Williams and Tyler Ennis running the point. Michael G wasn’t a point guard he played the position as a point forward. Until we have a good guard play we’re not going to be a national title contender. Most good teams have. College basketball guard play is more important than any other position. Our guard play has not been really good since Michael Carter Williams and Tyler and it’s for running the point. Michael G wasn’t a point guard he played the position as a point forward. Until we have a good guard play we’re not going to be a national title contender.

 

[Alsacs]

I’m not a fan of bringing Washington back, but I agree with your general take.

Joe is a shooter. GMAC was a shooter. A White was a shooter. Put them all in an open gym and they each will dazzle you. Give each an open look and you’ll probably get the same pct. What separates their game pct is size and shot selection (AWhite hit a ton of well guarded shots because of his size).

Gmac took tough shots out of necessity (few other scoring options his Jr / Sr years).

AWhite took fewer forced shots because he had Gillon and Lydon. Helping to spread the floor. And forced very few, probably passed up more good shots that the number he forced.

Joe should shoot a higher percentage, but his shot selection (mental part of the game) is borderline horrible. He is flanked by great shooters. He should limit his game to higher pct shots. Especially next year.

But Joe is a shooter.

The percentages say he isn’t a shooter. A shooter actually shoots well.

 

[MaxwellCuse]

I would actually target a point guard who can actually do a little bit of everything like Most good teams have. College basketball guard play is more important than any other position. Our guard play has not been really good since Michael Carter Williams and Tyler Ennis running the point. Michael G wasn’t a point guard he played the position as a point forward. Until we have a good guard play we’re not going to be a national title contender. Most good teams have. College basketball guard play is more important than any other position. Our guard play has not been really good since Michael Carter Williams and Tyler and it’s for running the point. Michael G wasn’t a point guard he played the position as a point forward. Until we have a good guard play we’re not going to be a national title contender.

You got the hiccups?

 

[Alsacs]

So with Joe as the pt, Syracuse can only be good, at best? And yet you wouldn't take my bet on a 7 1/2 seed. The talk just doesn't match that. As for Joe, his numbers will get better as he gets older. Just like most of the good shooters on Syracuse have.

My friend I’m not giving you a better deal than I already got another poster to agree to. Yiu can either agree to the deal that he agreed to or we got no deal. You are a smart guy you’re trying to get me to give you a better deal than what other posters have already said is a fair deal I’m not giving you any more.

 

[Alsacs]

You got the hiccups?

It’s what I get for posting while I’m driving using audio

 

[Alsacs]

So how would you approach it differently then if you were the coach? Go back in time, sanctions included. How do you fix it? Since it's not gonna work?

To give this a clear answer.
What I would differently is actually recruit the good PGs and realize guard play is what wins in college hoops.

When we had above average PG play we had a golden run.

It’s not hard.
Stop recruiting guards that have to be Point guards out of necessity instead of being natural point guards

 

[Alsacs]

Yes, Joe is a shooter, along the Gmac lines. JG3 needs better shot selection. But much like Gmac, moving a shooter to the pg can be a challenge to their pct. It is an adjustment that AWhite didn't have to contend with. Buddy/A White had the advantage of position.

Why aren't you a fan of bringing H Wash back? Do you really think SU can get better than that?

GMac shot 42% from 2 and 35% from 3 he had. Better shooting stats than Joe. Also Jerry was literally the only three point threat on his team except for Nichols.

 

[Orangezoo]

To give this a clear answer.
What I would differently is actually recruit the good PGs and realize guard play is what wins in college hoops.

When we had above average PG play we had a golden run.

It’s not hard.
Stop recruiting guards that have to be Point guards out of necessity instead of being natural point guards

You mean land commitments right? Not just recruit? Again no offense but this is a weak answer. I think it's a fair question to say how would you fix it vs throwing out something John Madden would be proud of.

We have had a lot of kids recruited as combo guards who ended up doing a really good job for us as playmakers Scoop was a 2G in HS as was Andy, as was Triche. MCW was a combo guard who became a very good PG. Mike G was a 2G. Frank Howard was maybe a PG but never really came around as hoped. Outside of Flynn and Ennis and recently Kadary we haven't brought in true PGs to meet your definition. We missed on Kaleb, Carey and Goodine despite they were in the mold of previous combos. Joe G wasn't expected to end up option one. He stepped up when two more highly regarded, perceived higher ceiling combos struggled and he produced.

Quade Green hurt as we all know. Gillon did a fair job as a grad Txfr. Battle obviously was a 2G. We then had the kid from USF who bailed.

So who do you land, or do a better job to keep on campus, develop etc. Did you see Carey and Goodine both failing?

 

[Alsacs]

You mean land commitments right? Not just recruit? Again no offense but this is a weak answer. I think it's a fair question to say how would you fix it vs throwing out something John Madden would be proud of.

We have had a lot of kids recruited as combo guards who ended up doing a really good job for us as playmakers Scoop was a 2G in HS as was Andy, as was Triche. MCW was a combo guard who became a very good PG. Mike G was a 2G. Frank Howard was maybe a PG but never really came around as hoped. Outside of Flynn and Ennis and recently Kadary we haven't brought in true PGs to meet your definition. We missed on Kaleb, Carey and Goodine despite they were in the mold of previous combos. Joe G wasn't expected to end up option one. He stepped up when two more highly regarded, perceived higher ceiling combos struggled and he produced.

Quade Green hurt as we all know. Gillon did a fair job as a grad Txfr. Battle obviously was a 2G. We then had the kid from USF who bailed.

So who do you land, or do a better job to keep on campus, develop etc. Did you see Carey and Goodine both failing?

You think we have done a good job recruiting PGs to Syracuse since 2014?

I say no we haven’t done well. I think the recruiting and roster management has been subpar.
JB the coach, how he games the schedule and his system has kept us from bottoming out.
He is too good a coach to suck.
The problem is we aren’t competing at the top of the conference because we don’t recruit the players do so.

Give us good PG play I think we are a good team. That is how college hoops works now.

 

[Orangezoo]

You think we have done a good job recruiting PGs to Syracuse since 2014?

I say no we haven’t done well. I think the recruiting and roster management has been subpar.
JB the coach, how he games the schedule and his system has kept us from bottoming out.
He is too good a coach to suck.
The problem is we aren’t competing at the top of the conference because we don’t recruit the players do so.

Hang on - let's not move the goalposts here. You just adjusted course a ton and totally ignored the fact we had success without true PGs from 10-13 including two teams that should have won a title. Our best PG on both ends and in NBA performance was a SG in HS and blew up after not being highly recruited before that.

You want to talk roster management in every thread. You pointed to PGs alone so I'm sticking on that specific point. I'm not going down the roster management path again as we have beaten that thing to death. What do you do differently. Not go after Joseph, Goodine, Howard, Carey? Who are you bringing in? I have a couple names.. Murray, Brunson for starters but they weren't true PGs either ( maybe you could argue on Brunson).

My point is and maybe it's because my career is revolved around solving things is that I don't think criticism is unfair or that the results have been what we find acceptable. I am saying what do you do differently at PG in this case when you look at the details instead of just broadly paint the program and recruiting as such. I get tired of debating complaints with nothing but generalized responses. What is the honest fix that could have been? I mean let's debate the details and the solutions and get into it. Play coaching staff and recruiter since we all have such strong opinions on it.

 

[Alsacs]

Hang on - let's not move the goalposts here. You just adjusted course a ton and totally ignored the fact we had success without true PGs from 10-13 including two teams that should have won a title. Our best PG on both ends and in NBA performance was a SG in HS and blew up after not being highly recruited before that.

You want to talk roster management in every thread. You pointed to PGs alone so I'm sticking on that specific point. I'm not going down the roster management path again as we have beaten that thing to death. What do you do differently. Not go after Joseph, Goodine, Howard, Carey? Who are you bringing in? I have a couple names.. Murray, Brunson for starters but they weren't true PGs either ( maybe you could argue on Brunson).

My point is and maybe it's because my career is revolved around solving things is that I don't think criticism is unfair or that the results have been what we find acceptable. I am saying what do you do differently at PG in this case when you look at the details instead of just broadly paint the program and recruiting as such. I get tired of debating complaints with nothing but generalized responses. What is the honest fix that could have been? I mean let's debate the details and the solutions and get into it. Play coaching staff and recruiter since we all have such strong opinions on it.

2010-2013 PG play was not average.
MCW was a stud in 2013.
He almost led the nation in assists.
In 2012 we had Triche, Jardine, Waiters.
Same for 2011.

2010 had Triche, Jardine.

We had great PG play from 2010-2013.

Scoop Jardine was a top 50 PG recruit.
He wasn’t ahead of Jonny Flynn as a freshman but he developed quickly after a redshirt year.

Let’s not forget that.