John Bol is likely staying

[SWC75]

Being NYS alltime scorer literally has nothing to do prove he is a good shooter.

It’s a stat to show he is a good scorer. That is totally different.
So that point does nothing to prove the point he is a shooter. When his percentages again in college tell a different story.

Volume tells what a player’s true shooting percentage actually is.
Volume allows a player to enhance their percentages playing more and getting more shots.

Thus if Torrence gets the minutes and shots Joe has gotten his first two years all my statement is saying he could match the stats.

Howard wouldn’t be a good 4th guard Just because he knows the system.
We need a quality 4th option so if the starting PG struggled and Torrence struggled we have a chance to win.
Washington couldn’t get minutes on an NIT team if he wants to play he isn’t coming here.
Having an actual PG is kinda important but we as a fanbase don’t care about that.

Great teams have good PG play not average PG play.

How many teams have fourth guards who are scorers who lead their teams to victories the first three guys couldn't manufacture. A fourth guard is an emergency guy who can prevent things from collapsing if you have to play him. Howard was a solid ball-handler who avoided mistakes. That's what fourth guards are. Guys who can shoot aren't fourth guards.

 

[Alsacs]

How many teams have fourth guards who are scorers who lead their teams to victories the first three guys couldn't manufacture. A fourth guard is an emergency guy who can prevent things from collapsing if you have to play him. Howard was a solid ball-handler who avoided mistakes. That's what fourth guards are. Guys who can shoot aren't fourth guards.

Championship level teams.

 

[SUFaninNJ]

Is JBA a shooter? Just trying to tie it in and find the relevance of the JG3 posts in this thread.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

I’m not a fan of bringing Washington back, but I agree with your general take.

Joe is a shooter. GMAC was a shooter. A White was a shooter. Put them all in an open gym and they each will dazzle you. Give each an open look and you’ll probably get the same pct. What separates their game pct is size and shot selection (AWhite hit a ton of well guarded shots because of his size).

Gmac took tough shots out of necessity (few other scoring options his Jr / Sr years).

AWhite took fewer forced shots because he had Gillon and Lydon. Helping to spread the floor. And forced very few, probably passed up more good shots that the number he forced.

Joe should shoot a higher percentage, but his shot selection (mental part of the game) is borderline horrible. He is flanked by great shooters. He should limit his game to higher pct shots. Especially next year.

But Joe is a shooter.

JB has a history of pulling subs back if the “subee” makes a shot. Joe took a number of ill advised shots when Kadary was at the table. That was disappointing to me.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

The percentages say he isn’t a shooter. A shooter actually shoots well.

That’s a maker.

 

[kcsu]

If Joe focuses on taking only good shots and tightens his handle he will be serviceable. He is never going to be good at taking his man off the bounce but can be a dangerous as a kick out option if teams are forced to cover Buddy Benny and Cole. IF any of our centers become an inside scoring threat ( Edwards is our best bet) than Joe might be the guy they leave open. Marek and Q were such poor outside shooters that teams could afford to keep tight on Joe. This year is very different.
Buddy at 6'6 is the shortest sniper. The other guys are 6'9. Edwards has a nice touch from 10 feet. I believe the combination of 3 excellent shooters and Edwards are going to result in Joe getting some good looks. This combined with the fans being back and Joe getting into great shape might just make for a nice season for him.

 

[Jake]

Yes, Joe is a shooter, along the Gmac lines. JG3 needs better shot selection. But much like Gmac, moving a shooter to the pg can be a challenge to their pct. It is an adjustment that AWhite didn't have to contend with. Buddy/A White had the advantage of position.

Why aren't you a fan of bringing H Wash back? Do you really think SU can get better than that?

Wasnt he and his family unhappy being the 4th guard? Suddenly they’re going to be happy playing the same role 2 years later? He’s an insurance policy...tough sell to a kid who left to get more PT.

 

[Jake]

The percentages say he isn’t a shooter. A shooter actually shoots well.

I can read stat sheets just like you, i just happen to think the game doesn’t start and end there.

 

[kcsu]

I can read stat sheets just like you, i just happen to think the game doesn’t start and end there.

Joes a natural 2. At this level he doesn't have the ability to create for himself. Great point Guards that are a threat especially those off the bounce create pressure on a D. Same as a QB that can both pass and run. One dimensional PGs or QBs are much easier to defend. If a PG is one dimensional its best if they can penetrate, take their man off the bounce. Joe unfortunately doesn't have that. Its why so many of us are disappointed that Kadary left.

 

[007]

I’m not a fan of bringing Washington back, but I agree with your general take.

Joe is a shooter. GMAC was a shooter. A White was a shooter. Put them all in an open gym and they each will dazzle you. Give each an open look and you’ll probably get the same pct. What separates their game pct is size and shot selection (AWhite hit a ton of well guarded shots because of his size).

Gmac took tough shots out of necessity (few other scoring options his Jr / Sr years).

AWhite took fewer forced shots because he had Gillon and Lydon. Helping to spread the floor. And forced very few, probably passed up more good shots that the number he forced.

Joe should shoot a higher percentage, but his shot selection (mental part of the game) is borderline horrible. He is flanked by great shooters. He should limit his game to higher pct shots. Especially next year.

But Joe is a shooter.

^^This^^ great post. I only have one different take.

Joe is the poster child of a college shooter. The problem is he is a shooter being asked to play as a playmaking PG. For Joe to play well, he has to shoot and keeping shooting. Joe believes this to be true (he's made his career on this) and JB has sanctioned it to this point because he must also believe this to be true.

If Joe is surrounded by high level shot makers next season, his effectiveness - as weird as this is going to sound - will diminish, IMO. Primarily because he will then need to be more of playing making PG rather than a shooter. A shooter needs to shoot. Joe needs to shoot. Having more shot makers will limit his opportunities to shoot. So, his poor shoot selection might increase.

 

[Niastri]

Wasnt he and his family unhappy being the 4th guard? Suddenly they’re going to be happy playing the same role 2 years later? He’s an insurance policy...tough sell to a kid who left to get more PT.

What a difference two years can make... He didn't get any more playing time at a lower tier school than he did here. Maybe he will be ok with returning here, getting an advanced degree, rekindling old friendships and being our fourth guard. Or maybe not.

If he wants to be a coach, coming here as a fifth year senior and learning from the assistants every game is a great way to make it happen.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Wasnt he and his family unhappy being the 4th guard? Suddenly they’re going to be happy playing the same role 2 years later? He’s an insurance policy...tough sell to a kid who left to get more PT.

If H Wash came back he would know his role. Didn't say it would be easy, it won't be an easy sell to get any guard now.

But after two years of H Wash chasing his dream, maybe his maturation has helped him come to realize there are advantages at SU that will help him in life, even if he doesn't play much - connections, coaching, education. He has a chance for a mulligan on his transfer option and maybe it looks good now. JB/SU is known by some to have an extended family view - didn't Nichols (also Buffalo) just use these connections for coaching. We have also seen JB be very tolerant of players who make some mistakes, he would probably have the door wide open for a return. If I were an upstate NY guy (and I am/was) I would give serious consideration to getting back into the good graces of the HOF coach in the twilight of his career

Getting him is a different conversation versus wanting him. Alsacs was saying he doesn't want him. Hard to believe he was serious, could just be some early morning trolling.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

I can read stat sheets just like you, i just happen to think the game doesn’t start and end there.

Yes, and it would have been nice if he had included the Free Throw percentages. Probably the most used and greatest indicator of pure shooting prowess. Must have forgot.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

What a difference two years can make... He didn't get any more playing time at a lower tier school than he did here. Maybe he will be ok with returning here, getting an advanced degree, rekindling old friendships and being our fourth guard. Or maybe not.

He opted out of the 2020-21 season due to Covid.

 

[Cusefan0307]

We will be successful next season if we get the Girard that we saw in the NCAA tournament.

 

[SWC75]

Championship level teams.

No championship team ever won their title because of their 4th guard, or their 4th anything.

This is the era of the wide-open portal. Any good shooter is looking for a place to start. He's not coming here to be a 4th guard.

 

[Alsacs]

I can read stat sheets just like you, i just happen to think the game doesn’t start and end there.

If a player is called a shooter then they should be making shots at a high level.
Calling somebody a shooter should actually mean they can shoot well in games.

 

[Alsacs]

No championship team ever won their title because of their 4th guard, or their 4th anything.

This is the era of the wide-open portal. Any good shooter is looking for a place to start. He's not coming here to be a 4th guard.

Grayson Allen was Duke’s 4th guard in 2015.
Tyus Jones, Matt Jones, Quinn Cook were Duke’s top 3 guards.

They don’t beat Wisconsin in the NC game without the scoring he did late in the game.

So sorry SWC your statement isn’t correct.

 

[Day2]

If a player is called a shooter then they should be making shots at a high level.
Calling somebody a shooter should actually mean they can shoot well in games.

He can, just not consistently, and in large part because of poor shot selection. These are fixable issues.

 

[Alsacs]

He can, just not consistently, and in large part because of poor shot selection. These are fixable issues.

Fix then before calling him a shooter.
He isn’t a good shooter if he is under 40% on 2 point field goals.
The 3 point percentage could be better if he took less bad shots then stop taking the bad shots.
I am not calling him a shooter because he can make some 3’s.

A shooter is somebody who shoots well.
Takes like this are what cause frustration. People want to say something to create a narrative.
The kid is a nice player but he isn’t a shooter if he isn’t making shots at a high level.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Grayson Allen was Duke’s 4th guard in 2015.
Tyus Jones, Matt Jones, Quinn Cook were Duke’s top 3 guards.

They don’t beat Wisconsin in the NC game without the scoring he did late in the game.

So sorry SWC your statement isn’t correct.

You mean the same Grayson Allen who was a Mickey Dee AA who won the 2014 slam dunk contest who was the 4th guard for Duke when they won the 2015 NCAA’s? Lol . Apples to Oranges to the remaining 300+ D1 colleges basketball programs.

Yet in 2016 #4 seeded Duke didn’t even make the Final 4 while #10 seeded SU did with Duke castoff Gbinije, Frank Howard, Cooney and Kaleb Joseph as our guards.

 

[Day2]

Fix then before calling him a shooter.
He isn’t a good shooter if he is under 40% on 2 point field goals.
The 3 point percentage could be better if he took less bad shots then stop taking the bad shots.
I am not calling him a shooter because he can make some 3’s.

A shooter is somebody who shoots well.
Takes like this are what cause frustration. People want to say something to create a narrative.
The kid is a nice player but he isn’t a shooter if he isn’t making shots at a high level.

I mean, that’s precisely what you’re doing.

 

[Orangezoo]

2010-2013 PG play was not average.
MCW was a stud in 2013.
He almost led the nation in assists.
In 2012 we had Triche, Jardine, Waiters.
Same for 2011.

2010 had Triche, Jardine.

We had great PG play from 2010-2013.

Scoop Jardine was a top 50 PG recruit.
He wasn’t ahead of Jonny Flynn as a freshman but he developed quickly after a redshirt year.

Let’s not forget that.

Ok I didn't say 10-13 PG was average, never did so show me where I said it . We had good PG play from guys who turned into PGs who were not PGs in HS

You said we need to recruit true PGs :

Antonio Jardine - Basketball Recruiting - Player Profiles - ESPN

Learn about Antonio Jardine and other recruit player profiles on RecruitingNation.com.

www.espn.com

Michael Carter-Williams - Basketball Recruiting - Player Profiles - ESPN

Learn about Michael Carter-Williams and other recruit player profiles on RecruitingNation.com.

www.espn.com

We already know that Andy/Triche/Dion were all SGs- already said that in my posts

You made a point and continue to spin away from it and claiming I said things i didn't. We have landed Jonny, Ennis and Kadary as true PGs and our best teams over that window were led by combo guards who transitioned to PG. We continued to do so with several unexpected misses. I'm not gonna restate my previous post. You aren't making your case here.

 

[Alsacs]

You mean the same Grayson Allen who was a Mickey Dee AA who won the 2014 slam dunk contest who played for Duke when they won the 2015 NCAA’s? Lol . Apples to Oranges to the remaining 300+ D1 colleges basketball programs.

That isn’t apples to oranges.
SWC said it has never happened and it had. I bet I could find more examples if I wanted too.

Spike Albrecht was Michigan’s 4th guard and look at what he did in the 2013 NC game.
17 points. He outplayed two future NBA studs in Tim Hardaway Jr and Caris Levert.
Trey Burke was the only guard who played as well.

 

[Alsacs]

I mean, that’s precisely what you’re doing.

No sir. He isn’t a shooter.
If he is a shooter then pretty much any player who has made shots at a low percentages is a shooter.

He is a player that be a part of a good team. He just isn’t a shooter until he shows it which he hasn’t.