Keeping score on the Triche/Scoop debate

[fanfanclubclub]

Keeping Score on Board Debates​

I don't want to hear any more whiny nonsense about a "database." I'm going to be regularly referencing back to some earlier posts in order to keep score on board debates. All it takes is a 2-second google search to dig up old posts, and I've got plenty of time today, watching movies with the kids and waiting for dinner to get ready. If you are a poster who frequently offers an incorrect opinion in a loud and insulting manner, I understand that you will not be happy that I am going to be keeping score regarding some of these board debates.

Please don't bother whining and complaining about my references to old posts.

The Scoop "Debate"​

I got pilloried on this board last season (and this) simply for saying Scoop needed to shoot way less and Triche needed to play more point. I even got banned (under the name ThomServo), eventually, for making these arguments. Many posters on this board hate any observations that are critical of a leading scorer (see GMAC). I explained this repeatedly last year, and most of the board defended the amount of shots Scoop was taking and screamed bloody mary about how numbers lie.

"Linear regression" has become a joke among a handful on this board, simply because my critiques of Scoop were so unpopular (and my critiques of Nassib/JS). Unconventional insight in rarely popular. My empirical arguments based on linear regression proved to be spot on: Scoop is inefficient and needed a reduced role; Triche needed to be point guard; Nassib is not a top 50 quarterback; and JS isn't good enough to have a prominent role on this team.

Over the past two seasons, I put up detailed statistical analysis showing how Scoop was our leading shot taker last year, he was very inefficient, and that killed our championship dreams. Any time I would point out Scoop's inefficiency, making observations about his low FTA rates, ft%, usage, and the like: a chorus of Scoop defenders would focus on his A/TO ratio or claim that Scoop led the BE is assists (without even trying to explain how his positives outweigh his used possessions and misses). No Scoop defenders ever actually responded to my statistical points with contrary arguments based on advanced metrics, instead they merely mocked the use of statistics with ad hominum insults.

As per usual, the posters calling people "morons" were wrong. It is obvious that JB does not think Scoop is talented enough to play a lead role on this team.

So let's review a couple of post on the Scoop issue. This one is called "Is Scoop our Tony Romo?" The answer is yes, Scoop is inefficient, makes way too many mistakes, and cannot be our lead guy if we want to win a championship, just like Romo.Posters like RF2044, Bnoro, StuckinBig11, simply insulted my analysis with witty zingers.

Here is another post, "Vincent Council led the Big East in Assists." In this post, SaintTristan said: "Anyone who knows anything knows that Scoop is more important than BT...last year [Triche] wasn't in Scoop's class and it wasn't even close."

Or here is a recent post called "Just my opinion." The OP, BostonOrange included a full-paragraph disclaimer about how his critique of Scoop didn't mean that he wasn't a Cuse fan, in an obvious attempt to avoid the ad hominum attacks Scoop defenders make on the fanhood and intelligence of anyone who suggests a reduced role for Scoop.

Despite the disclaimer and the title of "just my opinoin," BostonOrange's post drew insults.
Osullfam said: "What a bunch of knuckleheads. Scoop is on every list of the top point guards in america..." OttoCuse, Orangefan13, DomeStranger, and UnderHisOwnPower agreed.

And then SaintTristan went over the top:
"I wound never call a post or a poster stupid, but this is begging for some sort of adjective. Scoop was one of the best guards in the BE last yr. His assists # were near the top and he had one of the best TO/A ratios we have seen in a long time. On top of that he was better than triche in almost every category (and probs dion too). [editor note: totally incorrect with respect to almost every advanced metric] between our starting guads, scoop was the one who could shoot the three, make the pass or create for himself. Triche really cant do any of those things very well.and you knock scoop? . . .if one of our guards needs to be switched out its BT and its not remotely close...this team needs a PG and maybe ...and BT needs to find a seat far down the bench. [Scoop] is being honored all over the country left and right, this board needs to get over this favoritism crap." DomeStranger and Cuseman78 were quick to agree with SaintTristan.

Tristan in particular has a ton of embarrassing posts bashing Triche and praising Scoop: he even requested that several of these threads be "bronzed" so that the Tristans' arguments could be preserved for future reference. This is the reason I keep score. If I ever post something as wildly incorrect as Tristan, please, someone point it out to me.

___________________________________

In sum, there never was a real "Triche v. Scoop" debate, instead, a few posters made logical arguments regarding how inefficient Scoop was compared to Triche (making logical, empirical arguments), and the loud insulting posters blindly defended Scoop's lead role simply based on counting stat totals or his performance against lousy competition. Many posters defending Scoop's prominent role made nonsense arguments about how "everyone else was afraid to shoot," so we needed Scoop pounding the rock, killing clock, and chucking bricks: regardless of the how many advanced metrics showed that Triche and Waiters were more efficient and needed the ball more. SaintTristan's bombastic insults are a perfect example of the arguments used by those who defended Scoop's leading role.

Luckily, JB didn't agree with Tristan et al. JB realized that Scoop was shooting way too much and that Triche needed to play more poing guard, and it's clear that Scoop has been given an order to shoot less and pound the rock less. And Scoop, bleeding orange and being a great captain, reduced his role for the good of the team. His fga/min and fga/poss numbers are way down, and consequently, Triche has emerged at the point and the team has played very efficient offense during 8 of our 10 twenty-minute periods.

Props to AlbanyCuse, PoppyHart, BostonOrange, OrangeMuskyFish, M2MPrincipals, and the other posters who were way ahead of the curve in realizing that Scoop's role needed to be reduced. AlbanyCuse in particular realized that Dion over Scoop was a no brainer. Also to Bees (begrudgingly ), who has led the "Triche to pg" campaign for a long while, with good reason.

 

[EastCoast2]

 

[Orangezoo]

+1

 

[Ghost]

According to advanced metrics this post warrants a thumbs down.

 

[fanfanclubclub]

Just keepin score man! FYI, EastCoast2, you were also in the pro-Scoop camp pre-season, but your posts were always respectful, constructive, and logical (and sometimes funny), no insults or anything like that.

You did, however, predict that Scoop would be a pleasant surprise this season. You were among those who were surprised that posters like myself had low expectations for Scoop. You also predicted that Scoop would tie Brandon for the most minutes at guard, and that a Scoop-led backcourt would be top 5 in the country, with Dion and MCW getting only 24 minutes combined when it counted. All of these predictions are being proved inaccurate.

Eventually, once the season started, you changed your opinion and came around to the critiques that I and others have been making about Scoop.

 

[fanfanclubclub]

According to advanced metrics this post warrants a thumbs down.

"Scoop, Cooney, Mookie, Southerland, and Melo- that's the lineup that can deliver!"

-Ghost, November 1st.

It's going to be hard for me to get a thumbs up if that's the standard you are judging me by. I can see why you would disapprove of keeping score.

But to be fair, your posts are always constructive, without any middle school insults. And you have been up and down on Scoop, while being fair to Triche. I am mostly responding to all the posters who called people idiots, morons, stupid, etc, whenever anyone would argue that Scoop needed a smaller role and Triche needed the ball.

 

[Ghost]

"Scoop, Cooney, Mookie, Southerland, and Melo- that's the lineup that can deliver!"

-Ghost, November 1st.

It's going to be hard for me to get a thumbs up if that's the standard you are judging me by. I can see why you would disapprove of keeping score.

But to be fair, your posts are always constructive, without any middle school insults. And you have been up and down on Scoop, while being fair to Triche. I am mostly responding to all the posters who called people idiots, morons, stupid, etc, whenever anyone would argue that Scoop needed a smaller role and Triche needed the ball.

You can't quote a post where I was joking! Cooney? Mookie? You think that was serious?

 

[dash-30-dash]

Is the season over? When scoop has a good game are we going to see posts saying see, see? This is way past stupid.

 

[fanfanclubclub]

You can't quote a post where I was joking! Cooney? Mookie? You think that was serious?

I believe you that you were joking, but--

You do have a history of being enthusiastic about Mookie, even going so far as to compliment Mookie's handle, which is one of his worst tools. You've regularly predicted break out years for Southerland. You've also said that we don't have any one-on-one players, so it would make sense that you would like a lineup of shooters. I'm pretty sure none of these were jokes.

Many posters on this board argued, with a straight face, that Cooney ought to be in the rotation, that Scoop is our best guard, and that Southerland is a dark horse to be a starter and a break out star.

It's hard to tell sometimes, whether someone is joking, or whether someone agrees with Tristan, Bnoro et al.

Anywho, your posts are fine. I'm only "keeping score" so that the posters who use middle-school insult while proclaiming absurdities, like Tristan or Bnoro, will think twice before bragging about how obvious it is that Triche is awful or that Xmas has no chance to start.

 

[SarasotaPaul]

Sadfanclub??? What a very sad life! You spent the day with your kids doing this??

 

[Orangezoo]

ffcc .. Seriously? Opinions are just that but no need to make an agenda out of this. Reality is if Cuse is winning games who gives a rats behind if Reese and resavy are playing most of the minutes. Its good to debate but maybe take it down a notch from dropping names. Enjoy your turkey day and the success the hoops team is having. Everyone has an angle and for sticking to that angle. Agreeing to disagree is what makes a message board successfully interactive. We all enjoy a metaphorical cookie once and a while but Seriously maybe time to ease up just 5 games into a new season?

 

[arbitragegls]

...and now the count begins...debate as much as we want...it is four games into the season...and although a very big Triche booster; I do want Scoop to do well too...I am 'Cuse all the way!

 

[fanfanclubclub]

Is the season over? When scoop has a good game are we going to see posts saying see, see? This is way past stupid.

This is the same Dash-30-Dash that predicted that Scoop would be our go-to guy when we needed a big basket.

The same Dash-30-Dash who said "Nassib is the best player on our team by far."

The same Dash who got upset when I brought attention to his "Nassib is the best" post, and suggested that I must not watch the games if I couldn't tell Nassib was the best.

Dash, you are exactly the type of posters I am talking about, always calling people stupid for not agreeing with your frequently incorrect opinions. So yea, I can see why you would be sensitive on this issue, and call keeping score "way past stupid."

 

[Ghost]

I believe you that you were joking, but--

You do have a history of being enthusiastic about Mookie, even going so far as to compliment Mookie's handle, which is one of his worst tools. You've regularly predicted break out years for Southerland. You've also said that we don't have any one-on-one players, so it would make sense that you would like a lineup of shooters. I'm pretty sure none of these were jokes.

Many posters on this board argued, with a straight face, that Cooney ought to be in the rotation, that Scoop is our best guard, and that Southerland is a dark horse to be a starter and a break out star.

It's hard to tell sometimes, whether someone is joking, or whether someone agrees with Tristan, Bnoro et al.

Anywho, your posts are fine. I'm only "keeping score" so that the posters who use middle-school insult while proclaiming absurdities, like Tristan or Bnoro, will think twice before bragging about how obvious it is that Triche being awful or that Xmas has no chance to start.

You're a lunatic.

I said we don't have many one-on-one player, not sure how that translates into "none." Advanced metrics will show that "not many" does not equal "none."

I said Mookie can dribble, I would stand by that for the most part, then I said he's not quick (he isn't) and he dribbles upright (bad form). That was in comparison to Southerland who as a Freshman could not dribble AT ALL, as a Sophomore could barely dribble, and only now shows a propensity for dribbling enough to make it even a teeny-tiny threat.

I will also continue to predict a breakout for Southerland btw!

 

[fanfanclubclub]

ffcc .. Seriously? Opinions are just that but no need to make an agenda out of this.

I don't understand why you are complaining. I am only calling out the posters who used middle school insults while loudly and arrogantly making inaccurate predictions in the Scoop/Triche debate.

What is wrong with calling out SaintTristan for his absurd Triche bashing?

What is wrong with responding to the posters who called me an idiot for my argument that Scoop needs to play and shoot less often, and Triche needs to play point?

If you hadn't notice, the agendas in the Scoop/Triche debate have already been made. Like I said, I got banned last year for simply making these exact same arguments about Scoop, while posters like SaintTristan bash Triche nonstop. That's why I am keeping score, no need to whine or complain.

 

[Orangezoo]

With all due respect pot meet kettle. Just offering a bit of level headed advice. The complaining is all you bud. Knee jerk reactions are common on here no need to make a witch hunt of it

 

[fanfanclubclub]

Sadfanclub??? What a very sad life! You spent the day with your kids doing this??

Haha also stuff like this cracks me up.

You do realize that even a very long post takes only about 4 minutes to write, don't you? My original post took about 10 minutes, no follow up post takes longer than 2 minutes. I cannot imagine what motivates you to pretend that this post says anything at all about my life or my family. Obviously, you are making negative inferences about me personally, with no factual basis at all. Come on man, no reason for that: just engage in the topic without making baseless personal attacks.

 

[bevosu]

I like this. Kind of like having an ombudsman for syracusefan.com.

We all can use a little embarrassment once in a while.

 

[EastCoast2]

I stated this on October 18th. Nothing crazy or against the grain, and I still believe this will sum up our guard situation.

"3 guard rotation worked well last season, all 3 return, only change will be more similar minutes between those 3, IMO"

Minutes last year were
Scoop - 32
BT - 29
Dion - 16

Minutes so far this season are
Dion - 22.4
BT - 21.0
Scoop - 17.0
MCW - 15.4

Granted it is early in the season, but minutes are a lot closer than last season. As competition picks up, MCW will see minutes decline, and all 3 veteran guards will see more minutes.

Projected "big game" minutes... i.e. Florida, UConn, Pitt, UL etc
Dion - 28
BT - 26
Scoop -24
MCW 2

 

[Cusey]

"Advanced metrics" already?......

Lol! And your "tattletale/gotcha" approach is one of the reasons I don't post much anymore. Maybe you should apply some metrics to figure out why the country is going down the shi*tter. You got too many committee mtgs. going on in that head of yours.

 

[fanfanclubclub]

I stated this on October 18th. Nothing crazy or against the grain, and I still believe this will sum up our guard situation.

"3 guard rotation worked well last season, all 3 return, only change will be more similar minutes between those 3, IMO"

Right, that's exactly my point. You predicted more of the same this season, with Scoop leading the way. You thought that people with low expectations for Scoop were wrong, and that he would surprise people with improved performance. You didn't see any major changes coming, like Triche and Waiters beating out Scoop for minutes. You were generally pro-Scoop until the start of the season, a defender of the status quo, who thought that people down on Scoop were incorrect. I know your predictions weren't against the grain, but they were inaccurate.

 

[EastCoast2]

Right, that's exactly my point. You predicted more of the same this season, with Scoop leading the way. You thought that people with low expectations for Scoop were wrong, and that he would surprise people with improved performance. You didn't see any major changes coming, like Triche and Waiters beating out Scoop for minutes. You were generally pro-Scoop until the start of the season, a defender of the status quo, who thought that people down on Scoop were incorrect. I know your predictions weren't against the grain, but they were inaccurate.

Season is still young, my friend. Scoop could just be having the worst 3 week stretch of his life. Or, he got worse by playing against good competition all summer long and working out against 3 quality guards in practice for 6 weeks. My gut tells me it is the former. I think he just needs to stop taking bad shots and understand that this team is 5x better when he's distributing and not jacking up fade away threes. Believe me, I've done my fair share of yelling "What SCOOP TAKE A SEAT" at the TV these past few games... I think he'll get back to the Scoop of last year. Not AA status, but a player capable of being a starting PG on a top 5 team.

 

[EastCoast2]

FTR I'm not at all worried about Scoop's scoring. I'd actually much rather have Scoop average 6 pts and 9 assists than 12 pts and 5 assists.

 

[AlaskaSU]

linear regression. Have you not progressed since the era prior to the invention of punch card computers and SPSS back when Steele Hall was the home of computer nerds in the early 1970's. Try curvilinear regression to see exactly what is the best fit. Maybe linear but you will never know if your statistics are pre-1970. You claim to be a linear regression professional - made me split a gut. thanks for the laugh.

 

[EastCoast2]

linear regression. Have you not progressed since the era prior to the invention of punch card computers and SPSS back when Steele Hall was the home of computer nerds in the early 1970's. Try curvilinear regression to see exactly what is the best fit. Maybe linear but you will never know if your statistics are pre-1970. You claim to be a linear regression professional - made me split a gut. thanks for the laugh.

I want to know the distribution. Normal? Pareto? Exponential? Lognormal? Poisson? Gamma? Binomial? Multinomial? Geometric? Negative Binomial?