LAX Conference Expansion

[Bayside44]

This article today from SI by Ross Dellenger says there is a group of 7 ACC schools that are discussing alternatives. The article says that in addition to Florida St., Clemson, Miami and North Carolina, this group includes Boston College, Wake Forest, and, surprise, SYRACUSE!!! Hadn't seen that reported before. (per the article it does not include Virginia.) I am surprised. I saw another article this morning that says the B1G has vetted and tentatively approved the addition of Washington and Oregon, but they aren't ready to add them because they (the B1G) don't want to be the cause of the collapse of the PAC-12. One point the neither the SI article or the one above from The Athletic mention which I have seen discussed before -- If there are 8 ACC schools that are part of a group, they could approve the dissolution of the ACC and the Grant of Rights would no longer be an issue. But they'd better have a better plan if they do that.

" ‘The Next Wave Is Coming’: Expansion, Realignment and What’s at Stake for Power 5 Conferences"

https://www.si.com/college/2023/05/15/college-football-expansion-whats-next-power-5-conferences

It doesn't say that - it says the opposite of that...

 

[wgdsr]

It doesn't say that - it says the opposite of that...

the "8 votes to dissolve the conference" is also bunk. not saying some schools won't try to get themselves out. it'd be really expensive, tho.

 

[ClvrUsrnm]

So when the PAC-12 completely collapses, does Utah join the ACC?

Probably not. Sounds more like the Big 12, but things are certainly getting spicy out there.

 

[wgdsr]

So when the PAC-12 completely collapses, does Utah join the ACC?

Probably not. Sounds more like the Big 12, but things are certainly getting spicy out there.

they and asu have already been half-vetted for the big 12. it's understood they'll both end up there barring a real turn of events.

it seemed inevitable either the pac or the big 12 was going to blow up around this time as their gor's were expiring. last year the big 12 survived and got a decent tv contract done, and so it was the pac.

 

[ClvrUsrnm]

they and asu have already been half-vetted for the big 12. it's understood they'll both end up there barring a real turn of events.

it seemed inevitable either the pac or the big 12 was going to blow up around this time as their gor's were expiring. last year the big 12 survived and got a decent tv contract done, and so it was the pac.

Which leaves Utah to join the Big East in lacrosse?

 

[wgdsr]

Which leaves Utah to join the Big East in lacrosse?

they went to the asun, this likely wouldn't affect any of that. presumably, they'd have the same opp to go to the big east as before.

 

[ClvrUsrnm]

they went to the asun, this likely wouldn't affect any of that. presumably, they'd have the same opp to go to the big east as before.

Oh yeah

 

[JeremyCuse]

they went to the asun, this likely wouldn't affect any of that. presumably, they'd have the same opp to go to the big east as before.

Yup hard to see their lax affiliation changing in anyway

 

[laxfan1]

Reporting that Oregon and Washington to B10 for a 1/2 share of tv rights. Arizona, ASU to B12.

Everyone jumping ship. Now what happens to the ACC? The grant of rights through 36 is quoted as the big sticking point and, maybe it is, but what if not?

Duke, UNC will find a home via their bball programs, probably in B10. Not sure about Virginia. ND probably just transfers their ACC deal to B10 (5 football games plus the rest of their sports).

So, here's the question, what happens to Cuse? I just don't see a path for inclusion into a major conference. Football/bball drive the decisions, and Cuse just don't move the needle. Maybe Big East for non-football and ??? for football? Add the leftover ACC (Cuse, BC, Pitt, etc.) to Big East and those play football. Maybe have WSU, Stanford, Cal, OSU also.

Or maybe cut a similar cut rate deal in B10? 1/4 share just to be in a conference?

Basically, this all is just bad for Cuse. Especially sports like lax. Literally the tournament could be half B10 teams and 90% of the champions. Not sure a lot of good recruits go anywhere else.

Best situation if ACC figures out a way to renegotiate for Clemson and FSU to keep them happy. ND could be the calming factor that acts as the circuit breaker if they help ACC stay intact.

Will be interesting

 

[JeremyCuse]

Reporting that Oregon and Washington to B10 for a 1/2 share of tv rights. Arizona, ASU to B12.

Everyone jumping ship. Now what happens to the ACC? The grant of rights through 36 is quoted as the big sticking point and, maybe it is, but what if not?

Duke, UNC will find a home via their bball programs, probably in B10. Not sure about Virginia. ND probably just transfers their ACC deal to B10 (5 football games plus the rest of their sports).

So, here's the question, what happens to Cuse? I just don't see a path for inclusion into a major conference. Football/bball drive the decisions, and Cuse just don't move the needle. Maybe Big East for non-football and ??? for football? Add the leftover ACC (Cuse, BC, Pitt, etc.) to Big East and those play football. Maybe have WSU, Stanford, Cal, OSU also.

Or maybe cut a similar cut rate deal in B10? 1/4 share just to be in a conference?

Basically, this all is just bad for Cuse. Especially sports like lax. Literally the tournament could be half B10 teams and 90% of the champions. Not sure a lot of good recruits go anywhere else.

Best situation if ACC figures out a way to renegotiate for Clemson and FSU to keep them happy. ND could be the calming factor that acts as the circuit breaker if they help ACC stay intact.

Will be interesting

B10 has zero interest in Duke. They have coveted UVA and UNC for years, both will likely end up there.

ND isn't helping anyone but themselves, they will remain an independent in Fball until the very end.

Syracuse best landing spot is likely the B12 who want a NE corridor once the ACC breaks up (there president is already on record about wanting a NE presence. Only possible landing spot is the B10 and that's very unlikely but not impossible. Cuse bball is still very much a national produce that moves the needle, a few down years in Boehiems twilight doesn't erase 35+ years of success. Fball needs major improvement however.

From a lax standpoint SU should be fine they could easily go back to being an independent or join the BE again with ND for Lax.

 

[wgdsr]

Reporting that Oregon and Washington to B10 for a 1/2 share of tv rights. Arizona, ASU to B12.

Everyone jumping ship. Now what happens to the ACC? The grant of rights through 36 is quoted as the big sticking point and, maybe it is, but what if not?

Duke, UNC will find a home via their bball programs, probably in B10. Not sure about Virginia. ND probably just transfers their ACC deal to B10 (5 football games plus the rest of their sports).

So, here's the question, what happens to Cuse? I just don't see a path for inclusion into a major conference. Football/bball drive the decisions, and Cuse just don't move the needle. Maybe Big East for non-football and ??? for football? Add the leftover ACC (Cuse, BC, Pitt, etc.) to Big East and those play football. Maybe have WSU, Stanford, Cal, OSU also.

Or maybe cut a similar cut rate deal in B10? 1/4 share just to be in a conference?

Basically, this all is just bad for Cuse. Especially sports like lax. Literally the tournament could be half B10 teams and 90% of the champions. Not sure a lot of good recruits go anywhere else.

Best situation if ACC figures out a way to renegotiate for Clemson and FSU to keep them happy. ND could be the calming factor that acts as the circuit breaker if they help ACC stay intact.

Will be interesting

i vote no on making fsu and clemson et.al. happy. if they'd like to see how contracts, courts or negotiations play out, cool.

 

[laxfan1]

B10 has zero interest in Duke. They have coveted UVA and UNC for years, both will likely end up there.

ND isn't helping anyone but themselves, they will remain an independent in Fball until the very end.

Syracuse best landing spot is likely the B12 who want a NE corridor once the ACC breaks up (there president is already on record about wanting a NE presence. Only possible landing spot is the B10 and that's very unlikely but not impossible. Cuse bball is still very much a national produce that moves the needle, a few down years in Boehiems twilight doesn't erase 35+ years of success. Fball needs major improvement however.

From a lax standpoint SU should be fine they could easily go back to being an independent or join the BE again with ND for Lax.

My point on ND was that if they don't want to be part of the B10, they come to ACC and say "give us/FSU/Clemson a better deal and we'll stay - 5 football games plus our other sports". They are the only team not truly beholden by the grant of rights. If they leave, ACC becomes the Pac12 all over. That's how they act as the calming influence. But if they call B10 today, they get the same deal by Monday.

Honestly I think you're overestimating Cuse bball. It's maybe top20 in terms of viewership, but probably not getting much better. And I think B12 changes their mind with all of Texas and SW in the conference.

Everyone would take Duke basketball. Just like everyone would take ND football.

Also, if the B10 becomes an 10 league lax team, they aren't playing many people out of conference. So that leaves Cuse playing G-town, couple Ivies, Villanova, Denver and then what? There aren't any teams left to play as an indie. And all it takes is 2-3 years of bad recruits who think it's too risky to come to a place like Cuse and it spirals.

My basic point - ACC needs to stay together. Cuse just ends up being a patchwork of allegiances if ACC implodes. Others are in the same boat - BC, Pitt, etc.

 

[gmoney44]

i vote no on making fsu and clemson et.al. happy. if they'd like to see how contracts, courts or negotiations play out, cool.

Absolutely. They are going to bolt no matter what at the end of GOR. Hold their feet to the fire and make them pay big time to leave the ACC a year or two early. That way all the remaining schools get one last payday.

 

[JeremyCuse]

My point on ND was that if they don't want to be part of the B10, they come to ACC and say "give us/FSU/Clemson a better deal and we'll stay - 5 football games plus our other sports". They are the only team not truly beholden by the grant of rights. If they leave, ACC becomes the Pac12 all over. That's how they act as the calming influence. But if they call B10 today, they get the same deal by Monday.

Honestly I think you're overestimating Cuse bball. It's maybe top20 in terms of viewership, but probably not getting much better. And I think B12 changes their mind with all of Texas and SW in the conference.

Everyone would take Duke basketball. Just like everyone would take ND football.

Also, if the B10 becomes an 10 league lax team, they aren't playing many people out of conference. So that leaves Cuse playing G-town, couple Ivies, Villanova, Denver and then what? There aren't any teams left to play as an indie. And all it takes is 2-3 years of bad recruits who think it's too risky to come to a place like Cuse and it spirals.

My basic point - ACC needs to stay together. Cuse just ends up being a patchwork of allegiances if ACC implodes. Others are in the same boat - BC, Pitt, etc.

ND has already done that with their ACC deal which is the agreement to play a certain number of ACC teams a year in exchange for their olympic sports having a home. ND's only moving the needle for the conference and ESPN if they agree to come in as a full member (not happening). Them leaving the 5 game agreement doesn't impact the ACC's deal at all and doesn't impact the GOR in anyway. The B10 isn't taking them unless its as a full member so the discussion is moot.

As for SU your mistaken, there was just an article this week posted noting they are one of the most watched conference members in the ACC. Certainly no where near Clemsons level but not Wake or G-tech.

SU will always play Hopkins and UVA regardless of where each is in teh conference landscape. If the B10 had 10 lax members its unlikely they'd all be playing each other every year. Maryland and Hop aren't giving up long standing rivalries out of conference. ACC has another 5-8 years most likely until it becomes financially palatable for a team tl leave by paying otu the GOR until then everything will be status quo no matter what FSU says.

 

[laxfan1]

ND has already done that with their ACC deal which is the agreement to play a certain number of ACC teams a year in exchange for their olympic sports having a home. ND's only moving the needle for the conference and ESPN if they agree to come in as a full member (not happening). Them leaving the 5 game agreement doesn't impact the ACC's deal at all and doesn't impact the GOR in anyway. The B10 isn't taking them unless its as a full member so the discussion is moot.

As for SU your mistaken, there was just an article this week posted noting they are one of the most watched conference members in the ACC. Certainly no where near Clemsons level but not Wake or G-tech.

SU will always play Hopkins and UVA regardless of where each is in teh conference landscape. If the B10 had 10 lax members its unlikely they'd all be playing each other every year. Maryland and Hop aren't giving up long standing rivalries out of conference. ACC has another 5-8 years most likely until it becomes financially palatable for a team tl leave by paying otu the GOR until then everything will be status quo no matter what FSU says.

Last thing on ND - I meant they tell ACC "you want to stay together, give us (and FSU/Clemson) a better deal, or we walk". ND doesn't not have the financial hit if they walk. And if ND walks, it starts to implode. The ND games are always the top 2-3 most watched ACC football games.

Maybe you're right that a 10 team B10 doesn't play everyone...but all the other sports play each other now right? Why would lax be different than soccer, baseball, etc.?

Also, I think you may be overestimating the willingness to keep the historic games going. There have been much more historic...and profitable...games that have gone away, or paused. UT/A&M football, the 3 Florida schools playing each other every year, ND/Michigan every year. Hopkins AD isn't going to be overly supportive of taking 5 B10 trips at $200K a pop, and then agreeing to head to Cuse because it's a rivalry. Virginia even less so.

But it's all speculation. I'm just hopefully the ACC stays intact for a variety of reasons

 

[Powellfan]

My point on ND was that if they don't want to be part of the B10, they come to ACC and say "give us/FSU/Clemson a better deal and we'll stay - 5 football games plus our other sports". They are the only team not truly beholden by the grant of rights. If they leave, ACC becomes the Pac12 all over. That's how they act as the calming influence. But if they call B10 today, they get the same deal by Monday.

Honestly I think you're overestimating Cuse bball. It's maybe top20 in terms of viewership, but probably not getting much better. And I think B12 changes their mind with all of Texas and SW in the conference.

Everyone would take Duke basketball. Just like everyone would take ND football.

Also, if the B10 becomes an 10 league lax team, they aren't playing many people out of conference. So that leaves Cuse playing G-town, couple Ivies, Villanova, Denver and then what? There aren't any teams left to play as an indie. And all it takes is 2-3 years of bad recruits who think it's too risky to come to a place like Cuse and it spirals.

My basic point - ACC needs to stay together. Cuse just ends up being a patchwork of allegiances if ACC implodes. Others are in the same boat - BC, Pitt, etc.

This all seems very worst case scenario, and I think you are jumping to a lot of conclusions. Admittedly things are moving fast and I am perhaps being naive. It seems like if certain teams could get out of the their GOR, then they would have already and wouldn’t be putting up such an outward facing stink about it (cough, FSU, cough).

Here is where I show my full naïveté, what is stopping the ACC from jumping in and carving out some of these leftover PAC 12 schools? Is the tv deal such that no one can leave and no one can join either?

This whole thing just seems headed to a few super conferences that will be broken down by region in the end. Big 10 West and East. Just feels like an impossibly stupid process.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

The B1G will never allow ND to join for LAX only unless they join for all sports including football (which ain't happening).

Hopkins will always find a spot to play Syracuse.

 

[wgdsr]

Last thing on ND - I meant they tell ACC "you want to stay together, give us (and FSU/Clemson) a better deal, or we walk". ND doesn't not have the financial hit if they walk. And if ND walks, it starts to implode. The ND games are always the top 2-3 most watched ACC football games.

Maybe you're right that a 10 team B10 doesn't play everyone...but all the other sports play each other now right? Why would lax be different than soccer, baseball, etc.?

Also, I think you may be overestimating the willingness to keep the historic games going. There have been much more historic...and profitable...games that have gone away, or paused. UT/A&M football, the 3 Florida schools playing each other every year, ND/Michigan every year. Hopkins AD isn't going to be overly supportive of taking 5 B10 trips at $200K a pop, and then agreeing to head to Cuse because it's a rivalry. Virginia even less so.

But it's all speculation. I'm just hopefully the ACC stays intact for a variety of reasons

it doesn't cost $200k to take a road trip lax fan.

the entire reason there is an acc as of today is because of the gor. not notre dame. so with 13 years on it, the worry may be aways away. things change fast around that landscape, so you never know...

 

[Hoo's That]

Reporting that Oregon and Washington to B10 for a 1/2 share of tv rights. Arizona, ASU to B12.

Everyone jumping ship. Now what happens to the ACC? The grant of rights through 36 is quoted as the big sticking point and, maybe it is, but what if not?

Duke, UNC will find a home via their bball programs, probably in B10. Not sure about Virginia. ND probably just transfers their ACC deal to B10 (5 football games plus the rest of their sports).

So, here's the question, what happens to Cuse? I just don't see a path for inclusion into a major conference. Football/bball drive the decisions, and Cuse just don't move the needle. Maybe Big East for non-football and ??? for football? Add the leftover ACC (Cuse, BC, Pitt, etc.) to Big East and those play football. Maybe have WSU, Stanford, Cal, OSU also.

Or maybe cut a similar cut rate deal in B10? 1/4 share just to be in a conference?

Basically, this all is just bad for Cuse. Especially sports like lax. Literally the tournament could be half B10 teams and 90% of the champions. Not sure a lot of good recruits go anywhere else.

Best situation if ACC figures out a way to renegotiate for Clemson and FSU to keep them happy. ND could be the calming factor that acts as the circuit breaker if they help ACC stay intact.

Will be interesting

Football drives the bus, not b-ball. The B1G already has a small private school, Northwestern. there's nothing about the GoR that prevents adding schools to the ACC; they just have to sign onto them. It's been discussed that ESPN would add a pro rata share to the contract for each new school added to the ACC.

 

[Hoo's That]

The B1G will never allow ND to join for LAX only unless they join for all sports including football (which ain't happening).

Hopkins will always find a spot to play Syracuse.

The kept the game in 2021 against you folks and dropped us because of "scheduling problems". We had played every year since 1947. They probably would not have returned to the schedule if Petro was still their coach.

 

[CuseAlum87]

Football drives the bus, not b-ball. The B1G already has a small private school, Northwestern. there's nothing about the GoR that prevents adding schools to the ACC; they just have to sign onto them. It's been discussed that ESPN would add a pro rata share to the contract for each new school added to the ACC.

absolutely correct--this is about football with b-ball as an after thought. When Syracuse left the Big East for the ACC, JB told reporters(paraphrasing): "I don't know why you are talking to me, this is about football and I have no say in the matter" This is difficult for a lot of Syracuse fans and alumnae to understand because B-Ball is huge on campus. We took turns waiting in line for days for season tickets. Never had to or even thought about doing that for football.

 

[sholokov2]

This all seems very worst case scenario, and I think you are jumping to a lot of conclusions. Admittedly things are moving fast and I am perhaps being naive. It seems like if certain teams could get out of the their GOR, then they would have already and wouldn’t be putting up such an outward facing stink about it (cough, FSU, cough).

Here is where I show my full naïveté, what is stopping the ACC from jumping in and carving out some of these leftover PAC 12 schools? Is the tv deal such that no one can leave and no one can join either?

This whole thing just seems headed to a few super conferences that will be broken down by region in the end. Big 10 West and East. Just feels like an impossibly stupid process.

How long do you think it will take for corporations like Nike to assume control of college sports top to bottom, first by subverting the NCAA, then writing and enforcing the rules as they now do for many of the large university academic departments, using grants, contributions, academic chairs, etc. Could we reach the point where the ESPN-General Motors conference teams play the Koch Brothers conference teams in order to participate in the end of season 6 billion dollar trophy, where college athletes are paid millions and after four years are promoted to the Raytheon Lions?. Why would we need college participation at all in these abominable conferences? You can make this stuff up. Makes me glad to be old.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

Wish there was schedule expansion and the season went longer with more games (and started later.)

Could be a huge cash cow for the networks and NCAA if they chose to market it and with NIL here to stay I think everyone involved would be on board.

 

[Hoo's That]

Wish there was schedule expansion and the season went longer with more games (and started later.)

Could be a huge cash cow for the networks and NCAA if they chose to market it and with NIL here to stay I think everyone involved would be on board.

I think ESPN likes the schedule exactly as it is now because starting later would interfere with broadcasting the baseball and softball playoffs, which have higher ratings.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Wish there was schedule expansion and the season went longer with more games (and started later.)

Could be a huge cash cow for the networks and NCAA if they chose to market it and with NIL here to stay I think everyone involved would be on board.

Pushing the season into June or July will screw up the PLL.

The same PLL that ABC/ESPN has the broadcast rights to.