Lester on his Offense

[CIL]

1. Couldn't care less how much time, money, energy is given.

2. There are lots of legitimate questions/doubts/concerns going into this season. Doesn't mean a person has to be a douche-bag about it and almost solely focus on that.

This is probably the last time I am going to chime in here unless I am 10 deep. Some of these so called "douche bags" have been members of this forum for close to 15 years. While we don't always see eye-to-eye on subjects, I've come to learn that these guys and gals are every bit as die hard of a fan as the rest of us here, and would like nothing more than to see Syracuse football succeed.

A lot of these folks you called douches are actually very successful alums who have donated a lot of money to the program over the years, money your son is personally benefitting from. Once again, I'm not sure it's best for you to hang out on these boards during the season. And I'm sure the staff wouldn't be thrilled with you calling alums, donors, and fans douche bags, no matter what the circumstances.

That being said, good luck to your son during the upcoming season.

 

[Alsacs]

I mean this thread isn't even one of the worst 100 threads I have read on this site. Our lack of offense has led to a portion of this offense completely have a lack of patience. I want Scott Shafer to succeed he has done a good job recruiting with what he has done on the field.
However, this is 2015 and not 1985 teams don't win games consistently by being defensive first and tough. Teams win games consistently by having great offenses. Nobody expects us to average high 30 ppg but hearing Tim Lester say what he sees our offense being and then rattling off 3 complex NFL offenses and 1 power run NFL offense does NOT create confidence. I watch college football games and then I watch Syracuse games and they are not the same. We have to adapt to the times as we did in 2012. It doesn't take an NFL prospect at QB to have a good college offense.

 

[TheCusian]

If you think this is the worst that is your opinion which is fine. After Lester's performance as OC in the second half last year he used up all of his patience and if he is going to give an interview he needs to realize there is a portion of this fanbase that gets Vietnam flashbacks when we hear the offense being described as similar to pro style offense we clearly don't have the personnel to execute.

This is as drastic and hyperbolic a take you've had, I think. He's not used up his patience. That's ludicrous. I won't rehash all of the circumstances of the last half of last season on offense - but I don't think anyone looks good as OC during that period. That includes a Holgerleachmunn zombie. No bye weeks? 4th string QB getting run vs Duke? Are you kidding me?

 

[007]

The dye is cast. Lester is going to do what Lester is going to do. And, SS, for better or worse, has put his tenure at SU in Lester's hands/mind/playing calling ability.

Reading between the lines, Lester is going to attempt to identify whatever playmakers he does have and then try to get them the ball in positions that will "create" mismatches. 12 personnel, 20, zone running game, vertical go routes off of play action, spread formations with QB runs, whatever. Can Lester game plan/scout/play call well to enough (like Marrone and Hackett were able to do) to identify those mismatches, to identify his available "talent," and then identify the formations/player groupings to take advantage of those mismatches using whatever offensive plays he has installed? That's the real question, IMO. And I suspect that's the real question inside his own head.

Would the probability of success be higher had SS gone with a proven/experienced OC from an existing, high scoring system? That's a rhetorical question for a lot of us. And no Cusian, I am not assuming that Lester is going to fail. We will soon see. What I, and others, are saying is that SS did not go with the odds. There is plenty of evidence out there as to what systems are putting up the most points.

 

[SoBristol]

Rex and Washington have seen practice footage unavailable to us. So - not exactly sight unseen. Rex said it's similar to what they run at his school.

OK, and then we (and Rhode Island) should check out video of Rex's high school games, and understand Lester's vision?

This tape is funny, because many posters are filling Lester's vision with their own wishes or fears. (Not saying you are.)
The players like it because it is easier to grasp the concepts of what they will do, regardless of wrinkles in formation.
Some posters like it because it must be better than anything we have seen since McNabb's days.
Lester may stumble describing it to the media, and that is a big deal (or not).
I am fine with it (whatever) if Lester uses Hunt and the weapons we have. Ideally, the team avoids turnovers and penalties, converts a high percentage on third down, puts up points, and wins a November game or two.

 

[Alsacs]

This is as drastic and hyperbolic a take you've had, I think. He's not used up his patience. That's ludicrous. I won't rehash all of the circumstances of the last half of last season on offense - but I don't think anyone looks good as OC during that period. That includes a Holgerleachmunn zombie. No bye weeks? 4th string QB getting run vs Duke? Are you kidding me?

All I can say to this just stay positive man. I don't hope we never get to the point that you break. Just for the record we had a bye week before the two most pathetic games offensive games I have seen since 2005 in Pitt and BC last year in which we had 368 yards TOTAL in both games combined and 14 points scored. After a bye week our last 2 games had a total of 368 yards which is a good single game.

 

[TheCusian]

I mean this thread isn't even one of the worst 100 threads I have read on this site. Our lack of offense has led to a portion of this offense completely have a lack of patience. I want Scott Shafer to succeed he has done a good job recruiting with what he has done on the field.
However, this is 2015 and not 1985 teams don't win games consistently by being defensive first and tough. Teams win games consistently by having great offenses. Nobody expects us to average high 30 ppg but hearing Tim Lester say what he sees our offense being and then rattling off 3 complex NFL offenses and 1 power run NFL offense does NOT create confidence. I watch college football games and then I watch Syracuse games and they are not the same. We have to adapt to the times as we did in 2012. It doesn't take an NFL prospect at QB to have a good college offense.

This is not as true as you and Millhouse want it to be. Last year alone Michigan State, Clemson, Wisconsin, Louisville, Ole Miss - all had elite defenses to go with mediocre offenses. It is true that great offense is better than having a great defense in CFB today - but it's being wildly overstated on the board.

Look at Leach, Munn, and Holgerson's w-l percentage for their careers. They lean into their offenses so much that their defenses struggle. Just like Big 12 football - exciting offense, mediocre defense = no CFB champs in a long while.

Finally - people are getting too hung up on his words "NFL style" rather than the fact he is a college football coach and has no NFL coaching experience. He's been teaching this system to college kids for a long time. When Greggers and his OC's used the verbiage it was coming from guys who had just recently coached in the NFL. Two very different beasts.

People should be hoping Lester works out - because a competent to great offense along with out defensive coaches is a path to competing for the tops in the ACC.

 

[Millhouse]

This is probably the last time I am going to chime in here unless I am 10 deep. Some of these so called "douche bags" have been members of this forum for close to 15 years. While we don't always see eye-to-eye on subjects, I've come to learn that these guys and gals are every bit as die hard of a fan as the rest of us here, and would like nothing more than to see Syracuse football succeed.

A lot of these folks you called douches are actually very successful alums who have donated a lot of money to the program over the years, money your son is personally benefitting from. Once again, I'm not sure it's best for you to hang out on these boards during the season. And I'm sure the staff wouldn't be thrilled with you calling alums, donors, and fans douche bags, no matter what the circumstances.

That being said, good luck to your son during the upcoming season.

chip actually is a dbag though

 

[Millhouse]

This is not as true as you and Millhouse want it to be. Last year alone Michigan State, Clemson, Wisconsin, Louisville, Ole Miss - all had elite defenses to go with mediocre offenses. It is true that great offense is better than having a great defense in CFB today - but it's being wildly overstated on the board.

Look at Leach, Munn, and Holgerson's w-l percentage for their careers. They lean into their offenses so much that their defenses struggle. Just like Big 12 football - exciting offense, mediocre defense = no CFB champs in a long while.

Finally - people are getting too hung up on his words "NFL style" rather than the fact he is a college football coach and has no NFL coaching experience. He's been teaching this system to college kids for a long time. When Greggers and his OC's used the verbiage it was coming from guys who had just recently coached in the NFL. Two very different beasts.

People should be hoping Lester works out - because a competent to great offense along with out defensive coaches is a path to competing for the tops in the ACC.

what are you talking about calling michigan state and wisconsin mediocre on offense

 

[TheCusian]

All I can say to this just stay positive man. I don't hope we never get to the point that you break. Just for the record we had a bye week before the two most pathetic games offensive games I have seen since 2005 in Pitt and BC last year in which we had 368 yards TOTAL in both games combined and 14 points scored. After a bye week our last 2 games had a total of 368 yards which is a good single game.

Yeah - that was probably the lowest I got. Those games were bad. I think the offense just decided to believe that they sucked. I don't know. I'll give you that - it was bad.

Look my meta-point with the positive stuff is that changing a culture is hard. We've had ten years of mediocre to horrible football shoved down our throats. I don't mean to act like that didn't happen or I'm not discouraged because of that. A part of what is wrong with attendance, the local attitude towards the team, our own locker room to an extent, and this forum - is that history dangles around our necks like a millstone. I'm just working to keep my head above water. I know it will be sweeter when we do win.

This year.

I kid, I kid.

(Sort of )

 

[TheCusian]

what are you talking about calling michigan state and wisconsin mediocre on offense

Compared to the other teams in the playoff running? Also - Mich States offense had to catch up to it's defense. They were us for a couple of years (great defense, meh offense).

Also I just wanted to get you to say Wiscy had a good offense

 

[Alsacs]

This is not as true as you and Millhouse want it to be. Last year alone Michigan State, Clemson, Wisconsin, Louisville, Ole Miss - all had elite defenses to go with mediocre offenses. It is true that great offense is better than having a great defense in CFB today - but it's being wildly overstated on the board.

Look at Leach, Munn, and Holgerson's w-l percentage for their careers. They lean into their offenses so much that their defenses struggle. Just like Big 12 football - exciting offense, mediocre defense = no CFB champs in a long while.

Finally - people are getting too hung up on his words "NFL style" rather than the fact he is a college football coach and has no NFL coaching experience. He's been teaching this system to college kids for a long time. When Greggers and his OC's used the verbiage it was coming from guys who had just recently coached in the NFL. Two very different beasts.

People should be hoping Lester works out - because a competent to great offense along with out defensive coaches is a path to competing for the tops in the ACC.

Wisconsin 21st ranked offense 468 yards per game, 27th PPG 37.2
Michigan State 11th ranked offense 501 yard per game, 7th PPG 43.0
Clemson 58th ranked offense 408 yard per game, 51st PPG 31.1
Louisville 69th ranked offense 396 yards per game, 50th PPG 31.2
Ole Miss 51st ranked offense 419 yards per game, 67th PPG 28.0

Not exactly your best argument. Also, Ole Miss and Clemson were #1 and #3 in Defensive PPG and Louisville was #24.

 

[Alsacs]

Compared to the other teams in the playoff running? Also - Mich States offense had to catch up to it's defense. They were us for a couple of years (great defense, meh offense).

Also I just wanted to get you to say Wiscy had a good offense

Michigan State has a 2016 NFL 1st round pick at QB running their offense. It has been elite the past 2 years and will be this year. Michigan State's problem was the perceived weakness of the Big Ten when it came to CFB playoffs and Ohio State barely got in because of it. Wisconsin has been dominant on offense for over a decade they are the best team at developing big OL men and having great running offenses.

 

[TheCusian]

Wisconsin 21st ranked offense 468 yards per game, 27th PPG 37.2
Michigan State 11th ranked offense 501 yard per game, 7th PPG 43.0
Clemson 58th ranked offense 408 yard per game, 51st PPG 31.1
Louisville 69th ranked offense 396 yards per game, 50th PPG 31.2
Ole Miss 51st ranked offense 419 yards per game, 67th PPG 28.0

Not exactly your best argument. Also, Ole Miss and Clemson were #1 and #3 in Defensive PPG and Louisville was #24.

They are all better on defense. Putting defense 1st.

And Clemson was not the same once their starter went down. They were pretty bad on offense the last half of the season.

 

[Alsacs]

They are all better on defense. Putting defense 1st.

And Clemson was not the same once their starter went down. They were pretty bad on offense the last half of the season.

You realize this is a year 1 outlier right? Bobby Petrino is going to bring a good offense to Louisville, Deshaun Watson is probably the most exciting QB in the nation and Clemson has gotten good since Tajh Boyd became their starting QB 4 years ago, Michigan State has made the leap because their offense is clicking, Wisconsin was just a bad example by you I will let slip, and Ole Miss landshark defense was really the only one of these teams that was defensive heavy.

 

[Scooch]

They are all better on defense. Putting defense 1st. And Clemson was not the same once their starter went down. They were pretty bad on offense the last half of the season.

Macro point... Teams with good defenses have the ability to take more chances on O because the D has the ability to bail them out. Some coaches take advantage of that, while others turtle up on O because they don't trust that unit and try to play it safe and grind out wins. SU has tried the latter repeatedly, with mixed results, to say the least.

So just because a teams D ranks better than their O doesn't mean a coach puts defense first. He may use it as an opportunity to play faster and looser on O.

 

[Chip]

chip actually is a dbag though

I've never argued otherwise.

 

[Millhouse]

Compared to the other teams in the playoff running? Also - Mich States offense had to catch up to it's defense. They were us for a couple of years (great defense, meh offense).

Also I just wanted to get you to say Wiscy had a good offense

wisconsin is filled with giant corn eating farm boys descended from vikings, their offense makes sense for them and hardly anyone else.

we have a dome and raw athletes so of course we need to be a run first nfl offense

 

[TheCusian]

Michigan State has a 2016 NFL 1st round pick at QB running their offense. It has been elite the past 2 years and will be this year. Michigan State's problem was the perceived weakness of the Big Ten when it came to CFB playoffs and Ohio State barely got in because of it. Wisconsin has been dominant on offense for over a decade they are the best team at developing big OL men and having great running offenses.

We all watch the same games and have access to the same data. I'm familiar with college football.

My argument was that those teams put defense first. Here are the stats to back that up:

Wiscy
Overall D/Overall O
2010: 20/21
2011: 15/14
2012: 15/65
2013: 7/18
2014: 4/22


Mich State
Overall D/Overall O
2010: 43/53
2011: 6/56
2012: 4/97
2013: 2/81
2014: 8/11

So... let's see. For both teams the defense was better than the offense for all but 1 of the seasons combined. The stats back me up.

Just for kicks, here are our stats:

Syracuse
Overall D/Overall O
2010: 7/97
2011: 64/90
2012: 47/17
2013: 34/86
2014: 27/116

We have done a great job of wasting very good defenses with ill-timed horrible offensive seasons. If Lester can get us into the 50-60 range this year and our defense only slips to the 30-40 range - we'll be bowling pretty easily IMO.

 

[Millhouse]

We all watch the same games and have access to the same data. I'm familiar with college football.

My argument was that those teams put defense first. Here are the stats to back that up:

Wiscy
Overall D/Overall O
2010: 20/21
2011: 15/14
2012: 15/65
2013: 7/18
2014: 4/22


Mich State
Overall D/Overall O
2010: 43/53
2011: 6/56
2012: 4/97
2013: 2/81
2014: 8/11

So... let's see. For both teams the defense was better than the offense for all but 1 of the seasons combined. The stats back me up.

Just for kicks, here are our stats:

Syracuse
Overall D/Overall O
2010: 7/97
2011: 64/90
2012: 47/17
2013: 34/86
2014: 27/116

We have done a great job of wasting very good defenses with ill-timed horrible offensive seasons. If Lester can get us into the 50-60 range this year and our defense only slips to the 30-40 range - we'll be bowling pretty easily IMO.

the stats do not back up your statement that their offenses were mediocre last year. the stats show your post was ridiculous. having a great defense that's a little better than a great offense doesn't make your offense mediocre

 

[TheCusian]

Macro point... Teams with good defenses have the ability to take more chances on O because the D has the ability to bail them out. Some coaches take advantage of that, while others turtle up on O because they don't trust that unit and try to play it safe and grind out wins. SU has tried the latter repeatedly, with mixed results, to say the least.

So just because a teams D ranks better than their O doesn't mean a coach puts defense first. He may use it as an opportunity to play faster and looser on O.

We've done this dance a thousand times. If our O is horrible (90+) at the same time we get a top 30 defense - I can't say I blame the coaches for not trusting the offense. We've not seen a year where both have been good in the last 7 seasons outside of 2012.

 

[TheCusian]

the stats do not back up your statement that their offenses were mediocre last year. the stats show your post was ridiculous. having a great defense that's a little better than a great offense doesn't make your offense mediocre

Nope. Look again, chico. The one constant for both teams is their defense. Wiscy is closer to the best case as their offenses have been better than Mich State by a lot. But Mich State shows exactly my point. The foundation is quite clearly their defense. You cannot argue otherwise.

EDIT: I'll give you that I said "last year alone" - I should have said the preceding 4 seasons for Mich State.

 

[Alsacs]

Nope. Look again, chico. The one constant for both teams is their defense. Wiscy is closer to the best case as their offenses have been better than Mich State by a lot. But Mich State shows exactly my point. The foundation is quite clearly their defense. You cannot argue otherwise.

Honestly for my sanity I can't really argue anymore. Michigan State has been top 10 these past two years because their OFFENSE has gotten to level where they aren't a defense only team. They have won the Rose Bowl and Cotton Bowl the last 2 years because Connor Cook took the leap and their offense became really good. Of course they have been a good defensive team, but they were NOT national player with a defensive first mindset.

 

[KaiserUEO]

If lester was to read this thread...

he would turn to the wishbone offense

i think thats a shot of him after the spring game in 13.

you know...the one where he was 'overwhelmed'.

 

[TheCusian]

Honestly for my sanity I can't really argue anymore. Michigan State has been top 10 these past two years because their OFFENSE has gotten to level where they aren't a defense only team. They have won the Rose Bowl and Cotton Bowl the last 2 years because Connor Cook took the leap and their offense became really good. Of course they have been a good defensive team, but they were NOT national player with a defensive first mindset.

Not my point. The foundation of that team and Wiscy has been D. I wish I hadn't couched it "last year alone" - and in that regard your'e correct. My overall point from that post stands: CFB is an offensive game in 2015. But ruling out the importance of defense is stupid and negated by history both in 1985 and in 2015. You need both. Having a foundation built on defense is not a liability.