Lester on his Offense | Page 14 | Syracusefan.com

Lester on his Offense

You mean the two he threw as we got hammered by UConn? I would have loved to have seen how well Marrone's 2008 edition would have fared against FSU or Clemson ... PSU (while decent) was the only team we played that year worthy of the top 15 ... and while SU was competitive that PSU squad wasn't nearly as good as Clemson or FSU defensively. SU only put 7 on the board that day too.
FSU was bad defensively last year. Winston and their offense bailed them out. Clemson was a dominant defense last year finishing #1 in the NCAA in scoring D.

If DM is the coach we don't get blown as many times as we have in 2 years under SS. Marrone's worst game was that Penn State game and we kept it competitive till the 4th quarter. Marrone's teams struggled offensively but as I have said previously all of SU's big wins during his tenure the offense scored 30 points except the 2010 win @ WVU which the D won and to give credit that was a big win.
 
that's one way to put it. another way to put it is that they scrapped a failed pro-style approach and put in a simple college offense. we've had one good year on offense in , what, 18 years? this isn't that hard. it's college football. run a college offense. I would've loved to hear ANYTHING about a college offense that Lester admires.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/packaged-plays-and-the-newest-form-of-option-football/

Marrone and his offensive coordinator at Syracuse, Nathaniel Hackett, son of longtime NFL coach Paul Hackett (and now the offensive coordinator with the Bills), spent the offseason trying to figure out how they could fix a pro-style offense that was supposed to take college football by storm. The answer was to go the other direction — to learn from the top college offenses. Marrone and his staff spent extensive time that summer studying teams like Oregon, Toledo, and West Virginia to figure out how to blend their up-tempo, spread-it-out philosophies with the NFL concepts Marrone and Hackett believed in. They didn’t pull the trigger right away, but after the first couple weeks of training camp showed little improvement on the prior year’s results, Marrone called for the switch that would change the course of his career.

“Two weeks before the season, we changed the whole offense,” Hackettexplained before Syracuse’s bowl game last winter. And the theme for all the changes could be summed up in one word: “compression.” It wasn’t that Marrone added a bunch of new plays, or that the changes were obvious enough that a casual fan would notice, but the entire framework of the offense did change. For the passing game, Marrone said his first priority was to reduce the number of passing concepts. Out too went the complicated NFL-style play calls, replaced with simple, one- or two-word commands that facilitated the team’s new up-tempo, no-huddle pace.
I think the Bills would have been more successful in 2014 if Marrone had let Hackett truly coordinate the offense.
 
that's one way to put it. another way to put it is that they scrapped a failed pro-style approach and put in a simple college offense. we've had one good year on offense in , what, 18 years? this isn't that hard. it's college football. run a college offense. I would've loved to hear ANYTHING about a college offense that Lester admires.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/packaged-plays-and-the-newest-form-of-option-football/

Marrone and his offensive coordinator at Syracuse, Nathaniel Hackett, son of longtime NFL coach Paul Hackett (and now the offensive coordinator with the Bills), spent the offseason trying to figure out how they could fix a pro-style offense that was supposed to take college football by storm. The answer was to go the other direction — to learn from the top college offenses. Marrone and his staff spent extensive time that summer studying teams like Oregon, Toledo, and West Virginia to figure out how to blend their up-tempo, spread-it-out philosophies with the NFL concepts Marrone and Hackett believed in. They didn’t pull the trigger right away, but after the first couple weeks of training camp showed little improvement on the prior year’s results, Marrone called for the switch that would change the course of his career.

“Two weeks before the season, we changed the whole offense,” Hackettexplained before Syracuse’s bowl game last winter. And the theme for all the changes could be summed up in one word: “compression.” It wasn’t that Marrone added a bunch of new plays, or that the changes were obvious enough that a casual fan would notice, but the entire framework of the offense did change. For the passing game, Marrone said his first priority was to reduce the number of passing concepts. Out too went the complicated NFL-style play calls, replaced with simple, one- or two-word commands that facilitated the team’s new up-tempo, no-huddle pace.


That's fair. But in truth, I couldn't @$#@ care less what offense we run, provided we do it well.

I'd be okay with the Georgia Tech offense, or the wishbone even, if we could win a lot of games and go to bowls.

I understand the criticism, and agree with some of the reactions to this article. But honestly--just pick an identity and be good at it. I couldn't care less what said identity is, so long as the excution is solid and we score points / win games.

At the end of the day, that's the only !@#$% thing that matters. Couldn't care less about what the offensive system is [and I know I'm in the minority there; I know we play in a dome, etc.]
 
RF2044 said:
That's fair. But in truth, I couldn't @$#@ care less what offense we run, provided we do it well. I'd be okay with the Georgia Tech offense, or the wishbone even, if we could win a lot of games and go to bowls. I understand the criticism, and agree with some of the reactions to this article. But honestly--just pick an identity and be good at it. I couldn't care less what said identity is, so long as the excution is solid and we score points / win games. At the end of the day, that's the only !@#$% thing that matters. Couldn't care less about what the offensive system is [and I know I'm in the minority there; I know we play in a dome, etc.]
some offenses are easier than others to execute and score
 
Alsacs said:
FSU was bad defensively last year. Winston and their offense bailed them out. Clemson was a dominant defense last year finishing #1 in the NCAA in scoring D. If DM is the coach we don't get blown as many times as we have in 2 years under SS. Marrone's worst game was that Penn State game and we kept it competitive till the 4th quarter. Marrone's teams struggled offensively but as I have said previously all of SU's big wins during his tenure the offense scored 30 points except the 2010 win @ WVU which the D won and to give credit that was a big win.

How many points we score has little do with the our defensive performance. I'd bet if we drilled down into each of those big wins the story would be that both sides of the ball played well. Maybe the NW game is an outlier (if I remember correctly that was more of a shoot out). And what of the other wins during the Marrone era? I remember a bunch of white-knuckles (vs Rutgers to get to bowl eligibility).

The defense was consistently better than the O during that time. I'll give you that Marrone's game planning always seemed to be spot on. But for whatever reason the O seemed to be wildly inconsistent compared to the D. Shafer was Marrone's best hire and it's not close.
 
How many points we score has little do with the our defensive performance. I'd bet if we drilled down into each of those big wins the story would be that both sides of the ball played well. Maybe the NW game is an outlier (if I remember correctly that was more of a shoot out). And what of the other wins during the Marrone era? I remember a bunch of white-knuckles (vs Rutgers to get to bowl eligibility).

The defense was consistently better than the O during that time. I'll give you that Marrone's game planning always seemed to be spot on. But for whatever reason the O seemed to be wildly inconsistent compared to the D. Shafer was Marrone's best hire and it's not close.

Not sure what you are trying to say. The O bailed the D in several wins. The Wake game in 2011, Toledo game in 2011, Kansas State-bowl game, Northwestern in 2009.

Our D was okay during the DM era, but it was never shutdown the opposing offense good. It got the job done but I mean it wasn't great. The Big East was never a great offensive conference. I give SS credit for owning the only real dominant O in WVU, but stop with these justification messages. Our D got a lot of manilla offense when we are getting our butts kicked or ahead.

Does the O get credit for scoring 37 points on Tulane and the D giving up 34? If your going to give the D credit for the Rutgers win in 2010 I guess then it should.

DM never had a dominant offense outside of 2012, but in games we won the offense scored for the most part. SS has been horrible in 2 yeas at putting a college offense on the field. It worse than anything DM ever put out and last year was on par with Pariani in 2005.
 
Not sure what you are trying to say. The O bailed the D in several wins. The Wake game in 2011, Toledo game in 2011, Kansas State-bowl game, Northwestern in 2009.

Our D was okay during the DM era, but it was never shutdown the opposing offense good. It got the job done but I mean it wasn't great. The Big East was never a great offensive conference. I give SS credit for owning the only real dominant O in WVU, but stop with these justification messages. Our D got a lot of manilla offense when we are getting our butts kicked or ahead.

Does the O get credit for scoring 37 points on Tulane and the D giving up 34? If your going to give the D credit for the Rutgers win in 2010 I guess then it should.

DM never had a dominant offense outside of 2012, but in games we won the offense scored for the most part. SS has been horrible in 2 yeas at putting a college offense on the field. It worse than anything DM ever put out and last year was on par with Pariani in 2005.

Let me help:

The question is not "is the offense under Shafer better than the offense under Marrone" - the numbers bear that out*. We were better under Marrone. The question is "was the defense better than the offense during the Marrone era" and the corollary "did the defense carry the offense for most of the time during the Marrone era" ...

The numbers are staggeringly clear. The defense was better than the offense by a large margin in all but one of those years. I'M NOT SAYING THE OFFENSE DIDNT SCORE to win games. I'm saying that the defense was better and more consistent then the offense in all but one of those years, i.e. they carried the offense. In 2011 you could say we just sucked, and I'd agree with you (outside of WVU).

Marrone era:
D rank/O rank
2009: 37/116
2010: 7/97
2011: 64/90
2012: 47/17
Shafer era:
2013: 34/86
2014: 27/116

Shafer was the better hire as DC, as Hackett was as OC. I don't think this can be questioned - even with 2012's insane burst of offense.

Also: Take a look at those offensive rankings again. If we could muster an offense in the 50-60 range to go with 90% of those defenses? We'd be well on our way. As to why I'm hopeful about Lester? New guy, new chance to reach that very modest goal. If I could have my pick of any OC from anywhere after last season - I'm 100% sure I wouldn't pick Lester. But that's not my call. I'm forced to buy on Lester until proven otherwise - because rainbows and unicorns and all that ;).

*EDIT: Wait! - in the combined Marrone/Shafer eras, 2013 was the second best O ranking during that period?! I don't know if that's more damning for Hackett or just sad overall. I'll go with sad and depressing. Ug.
 
Not sure what you are trying to say. The O bailed the D in several wins. The Wake game in 2011, Toledo game in 2011, Kansas State-bowl game, Northwestern in 2009.

Our D was okay during the DM era, but it was never shutdown the opposing offense good. It got the job done but I mean it wasn't great. The Big East was never a great offensive conference. I give SS credit for owning the only real dominant O in WVU, but stop with these justification messages. Our D got a lot of manilla offense when we are getting our butts kicked or ahead.

Does the O get credit for scoring 37 points on Tulane and the D giving up 34? If your going to give the D credit for the Rutgers win in 2010 I guess then it should.

DM never had a dominant offense outside of 2012, but in games we won the offense scored for the most part. SS has been horrible in 2 yeas at putting a college offense on the field. It worse than anything DM ever put out and last year was on par with Pariani in 2005.

You can't be serious .. in 2010 Syracuse was 17th in the country in allowed points per game and 93rd overall in points scored per game ... what Syracuse football team were you watching? The defense absolutely carried them to a bowl game in 2010 that can't even be debated.
 
I am not saying the D wasn't better than the O. My point is when the O was on the D didn't exactly shut the opponent down. It worked in cynic. Our D numbers were always inflated. We were never great D even if the numbers said we were good. Whenever we faced a really good O that wasn't WVU we got shredded.

SS after ISIS press conference lost me. I want him to succeed and want SU FB to win games. I don't trust Lester with I have seen and read. If the O does well I am going to be first person to eat crow, but with how low the bar is 115th to 80th is probably good enough for SU fans. Also look at 2009 and 2014 we finished 116th in offense both those years and in 2009 we looked a lot better.
 
I am not saying the D wasn't better than the O. My point is when the O was on the D didn't exactly shut the opponent down. It worked in cynic. Our D numbers were always inflated. We were never great D even if the numbers said we were good. Whenever we faced a really good O that wasn't WVU we got shredded.

SS after ISIS press conference lost me. I want him to succeed and want SU FB to win games. I don't trust Lester with I have seen and read. If the O does well I am going to be first person to eat crow, but with how low the bar is 115th to 80th is probably good enough for SU fans. Also look at 2009 and 2014 we finished 116th in offense both those years and in 2009 we looked a lot better.

You can't be serious. Are you sure you're not holding an anti-Shafer bias and that 2012 colored everything else orange and happy in the Marrone era? Our O was still atrocious much of the time with Hackett. It just was. Not last year bad - but we were not consistently good on O. The numbers say we were consistent on D. That's how that stuff is calculated and why season long data points paint a pretty good picture.

-

I think the ISIS stuff is overblown, frankly. But if that's where he lost you, that's where he lost you.

I'm actually getting more hopeful for this season. I trust our D coaches and think Lester's O is going to finish 50-60.

But this is a nice end point for our discussion ;). I should say - we both want the same results. Sorry if I've driven you nuts with my positivity. It's just who I am.
 
I am not saying the D wasn't better than the O. My point is when the O was on the D didn't exactly shut the opponent down. It worked in cynic. Our D numbers were always inflated. We were never great D even if the numbers said we were good. Whenever we faced a really good O that wasn't WVU we got shredded.

SS after ISIS press conference lost me. I want him to succeed and want SU FB to win games. I don't trust Lester with I have seen and read. If the O does well I am going to be first person to eat crow, but with how low the bar is 115th to 80th is probably good enough for SU fans. Also look at 2009 and 2014 we finished 116th in offense both those years and in 2009 we looked a lot better.

And my point was that the O was seldom on and if not for the D SU doesn't go bowling in 2010 .. and in some of those games when the D was shredded the O was so pathetic ... see 4 turnovers against Pitt the D either had to defend a short field or was on the field so long it didn't matter how good they were ... everyone wants to throw out rankings and averages but never want to analyze context. I am by no means happy with the offense and damn 2012 for giving me the hope of ever thinking we would see it again ... but good grief you can recite stats till the cows come home and it won't impact what is going to happen on the field in 2015 ... I hope a lot of people here are eating crow ... hell in a way I would be too. But I am willing to let them take the field before I make a single assumption.
 
I find this interview, while somewhat confusing due to verbiage (money, finwad, CIL, Crusty - help?) to be a whole lot more interesting than the dumbed down NFL comments from Lester this week:

Free article, link here, remove space between "c" and "o" http://www.sc out.com/college/syracuse/story/1555885-syracuse-offense-about-80-installed

Syracuse football is losing nearly all of its defensive starters, is trying to work back in players who were injured last season and is attempting to replace its best offensive lineman. Despite all of that, the biggest transition for the Orange entering the 2015 season is a new offensive system.

Gone is former offensive coordinator George McDonald, now the wide receivers coach at NC State, and implementing his offense is new coordinator Tim Lester.

Head coach Scott Shafer told CuseNation.com during an extensive one-on-one interview that they have about 80% of Lester’s offense installed after spring football. He believes the players, as well as the coaches, are excited about the change.

”The kids have responded extremely well,” Shafer said. “I think they’re excited about some of the things that we’ve done. The system, it’s easy. It’s hard to defend in my opinion. We haven’t run a lot of the things in media access practices for all the right reasons. To keep that tactical advantage there.

”Some of the things that they’re doing, I think the kids are really excited about the multiplicity where we can move people. Some of the different people behind the x’s and o’s get to do some of the same things by changing where they line up. They’re excited about it and so are we.”

One of the biggest changes between McDonald’s and Lester’s offense is the ability to confuse defenses with complex looks but simple assignments that are similar or the same regardless of the formation.

This concepts based approach is one that coach Shafer believes is often discusses, but rarely put into place. With Lester’s offense, it truly is about concepts.

That approach allows players to feel more comfortable with their role, their assignment on a given play and, in theory, will limit mistakes from the offense while creating more for the defense. The thing I like about Tim’s offense, everybody talks about being concept based, but a lot of coaches aren’t,” Shafer said. “They say they are. I don’t know if it’s en vogue to say that word. Tim’s as good as I’ve been around at doing the same thing with different formations, different alignments and different people. It makes the offense seem more complicated than it is from a defensive perspective. But for the kids, they understand the concept. Now it’s just if I’m in here I’m doing this. If I’m out here I’m doing this. So you can move a guy like Erv Philips around and create mismatch problems and all he has to know is the concept.

”If I’m inside I’m doing this. If I’m outside I’m doing this. If I’m backside I’m doing this. That’s what I like about the offense. You can go into a game and bring all your concepts. You may have practiced 40 percent of your offensive run game against one certain defense and they throw a different defense out. All you have to do is change your formation and go back to the same concept. Like for the offensive line, there’s not a lot of change. But for everybody else there is. From a pre-snap look for the defense, it’ll be totally different.”
 
I say you look at the defense in the BCS OOC games from the DM/SS era.
2009
Minnesota-23 pts allowed Grade B+
Penn State-28 pts allowed Grade B
Northwestern-34 pts allowed Grade C

2010
Washington 41 pts allowed Grade D
Boston College 16 pts allowed Grade A
Kansas State 34 pts allowed Grade D

2011
Wake Forest 29 pts allowed Grade C
USC 38 pts allowed Grade D

2012
Northwestern 42 Grade
USC 42 Grade C-
Minnesota 17 Grade A-
Missouri 27 Grade C
West Virginia 14 Grade A+

Our defense didn't exactly do well against non-Big East P5 teams. When ranking a D or O I prefer looking at points allowed over yards. Those rankings are a lot fairer as yards don't count on the scoreboard.
 
TheCusian said:
Marrone era:
D rank/O rank
2009: 37/116
2010: 7/97
2011: 64/90
2012: 47/17
Shafer era:
2013: 34/86
2014: 27/116


*EDIT: Wait! - in the combined Marrone/Shafer eras, 2013 was the second best O ranking during that period?! I don't know if that's more damning for Hackett or just sad overall. I'll go with sad and depressing. Ug.

Yeah I think the tough part was going from 17th to 86th when we really had something going and the defense got better! If shafe had brought someone in to run hacketts offense off the bat we could have been really good or that's the perception.
 
hcss said all the same things about mcdonalds offense when he was hired

its all a crapshoot at best -my biggest issue is lester showed less than zero last year- find all the excuses you want and there are almost 100000 with you guys- but the fact is he did nothing last year at all- actually less than nothing-anyone who has faith in him other than hcss is a idiot-

i would love for him to make me the idiot- but i just cant see it
 
rosconey said:
hcss said all the same things about mcdonalds offense when he was hired its all a crapshoot at best -my biggest issue is lester showed less than zero last year- find all the excuses you want and there are almost 100000 with you guys- but the fact is he did nothing last year at all- actually less than nothing-anyone who has faith in him other than hcss is a idiot- i would love for him to make me the idiot- but i just cant see it

Yeah - you've stated your point. I'm not sure anyone agrees with how far you're taking it though.

If you can't see the gap between last seasons clusterf and the new offense installed this season - I'd just stop posting in this thread. Even people who are down on Lester at least acknowledge the circumstances he was dealt last year.
 
I say you look at the defense in the BCS OOC games from the DM/SS era.
2009
Minnesota-23 pts allowed Grade B+
Penn State-28 pts allowed Grade B
Northwestern-34 pts allowed Grade C

2010
Washington 41 pts allowed Grade D
Boston College 16 pts allowed Grade A
Kansas State 34 pts allowed Grade D

2011
Wake Forest 29 pts allowed Grade C
USC 38 pts allowed Grade D

2012
Northwestern 42 Grade
USC 42 Grade C-
Minnesota 17 Grade A-
Missouri 27 Grade C
West Virginia 14 Grade A+

Our defense didn't exactly do well against non-Big East P5 teams. When ranking a D or O I prefer looking at points allowed over yards. Those rankings are a lot fairer as yards don't count on the scoreboard.

Using points instead of overall o/d

2009: 74/99
2010: 17/93
2011: 73/83
2012: 46/55*
2013: 56/99
2014: 37/121

Note that using this criteria, the defense was better in every season.
 
I felt sorry for our D last year. The offense continually let them down. We ranked 114 in first downs with 202...Oregon ranked 1st with 406.

If I was on the D squad I'd be very disappointed in the O side of the team. Lacking depth on D, it doesn't help that the O can't keep you off the field.

Amazing that the defense did as well as it did given the fact that the offense failed so many times to give them some rest.
 
I say you look at the defense in the BCS OOC games from the DM/SS era.
2009
Minnesota-23 pts allowed Grade B+
Penn State-28 pts allowed Grade B
Northwestern-34 pts allowed Grade C

2010
Washington 41 pts allowed Grade D
Boston College 16 pts allowed Grade A
Kansas State 34 pts allowed Grade D

2011
Wake Forest 29 pts allowed Grade C
USC 38 pts allowed Grade D

2012
Northwestern 42 Grade
USC 42 Grade C-
Minnesota 17 Grade A-
Missouri 27 Grade C
West Virginia 14 Grade A+

Our defense didn't exactly do well against non-Big East P5 teams. When ranking a D or O I prefer looking at points allowed over yards. Those rankings are a lot fairer as yards don't count on the scoreboard.

You cherry pick the OOC games fine .. however you also need to realize circumstance and look at in conf P5 games ... you pick 13 games out of 4 years and that is the basis for your argument? Honestly? You do realize that SU was within two scores of UW in the fourth quarter until they gave Locker the short field and they only had to go 40 yards for a touchdown ... that is exclusive of two back breaking turnovers committed by the OFFENSE. They held that Minny team under 400 yards of total offense ... same with K State in the bowl game. KSU's average starting field position was their own 40 and our punter averaged a whopping 31 yards a kick ... our defense was constantly put in bad situations that season and held on ... in conference against a really good WVU team, a solid USF team and a pretty good Cincy team the defense was outstanding. I am beginning to think it pains people on this board to give Shafer credit for anything. They allow Franklin to only throw for about 200 yds and hold Beckham-Green to only 2 catches against Mizzou and they get a C ... really? And as for NW you do realize they held them to 337 yards of offense right ... the O turned it over 3 times and they allowed NW to score on a fumble return ... that also the PF call that even gave NW a chance to win at the end ... the defense has been playing with their backs against the wall for 4 years now. Only twice did NW move the ball on a drive more than 39 yards ... please honestly you can do better than this.
 
I think SS was above-average as the DC. It doesn't mean he was great. The D has done an okay job with the lack of offensive support it has gotten. SS was never a candidate for a P5 job before Marrone left. He was hired to continue the momentum of Marrone. Marrone took over a program that had gone 10-37 in 4 years and brought it to 25-25 in 4 years.

Shafer didn't have a complete rebuild when he became HC. He is suppose to be going upward. To get where Doug Marrone was after 4 years SS has to go 15-10 in the next 2 years. Las Vegas has our O/U for wins in 2015 at 4.5.

Sorry if I am not optimistic. I want to be wrong. When the OC talks about 3 NFL offenses and the only experience is D-3 I get scared. The athletes and skill in D-3 is not even close to D-1AA and that is even talking about P5 D-1 football.

The offense has not shown ANYTHING. I mean its not exactly going to catch ANYONE that off guard. They would have more leeway if the spring game had excitement or this OC wasn't the OC over the worst 5 games from a P5 team in the last 10 years during the previous season.
 
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I think SS was above-average as the DC. It doesn't mean he was great. The D has done an okay job with the lack of offensive support it has gotten. SS was never a candidate for a P5 job before Marrone left. He was hired to continue the momentum of Marrone. Marrone took over a program that had gone 10-37 in 4 years and brought it to 25-25 in 4 years.

Shafer didn't have a complete rebuild when he became HC. He is suppose to be going upward. To get where Doug Marrone was after 4 years SS has to go 15-10 in the next 2 years. Las Vegas has our O/U for wins in 2015 at 4.5.

Sorry if I am not optimistic. I want to be wrong. When the OC talks about 3 NFL offenses and the only experience is D-3 I get scared. The athletes and skill in D-3 is not even close to D-1AA and that is even talking about P5 D-1 football.

The offense has not shown ANYTHING. I mean its not exactly going to catch ANYONE that off guard. They would have more leeway if the spring game had excitement or this OC wasn't the OC over the worst 5 games from a P5 team in the last 10 years during the previous season.

You know the search function on the forum must be broken because I'm trying to find the post where I said he was great and super duper and it isn't coming up. Again the defense made it possible for them to go to a bowl game in 2010 and kept them in a lot of games and won them some games. So instead of disputing that you now change the argument, fine. Marrone left with a and 25-25 record which is fair but how many SU athletes were drafted this past year? I can easily argue from a talent perspective (as have many here) Marrone did nothing to increase our talent level ... he hired a guy that he knew would build a defense that was good enough for them to be competitive and play field position games.

I have never ever advocated that Shafer was the ideal hire for HC but based on program state he was the next natural progression. He is doing a ton of learning on the job and in his first year took a team to a bowl game and won with a less than poor QB situation, a situation Marrone left him with. He has shown the ability to recruit and build a defense and is feeling his way in the dark and on a budget to build an offense, something he has never had to do. He has only had to stop them, he was good enough for Harbaugh to hire and take under his wing which is a solid endorsement IMHO. He has acknowledged mistakes he has made as a coach and is looking to build on that. When you consider the way he entered as his first year as the HC he did it in a semi-rushed fashion since ole Dougie bailed out in December near the end of the recruiting cycle and left him playing catchup from day 1. Cut the guy a break and see how his this season plays out before you burn the guy at the stake. If they have a poor offense ... I won't be happy with something ranked 70 or less myself ... then we gripe, unless they somehow win 8 games which again is not likely anyway. Shafer inherits Hunt who missed a lot of time last season ... Marrone inherits the all time leading passer in school history ... and people can say Marrone molded him which is fine however Nassib still had to make the throws and have the intelligence to run that no huddle scheme ... everyone wants to compare apples to oranges.
 
You know the search function on the forum must be broken because I'm trying to find the post where I said he was great and super duper and it isn't coming up. Again the defense made it possible for them to go to a bowl game in 2010 and kept them in a lot of games and won them some games. So instead of disputing that you now change the argument, fine. Marrone left with a and 25-25 record which is fair but how many SU athletes were drafted this past year? I can easily argue from a talent perspective (as have many here) Marrone did nothing to increase our talent level ... he hired a guy that he knew would build a defense that was good enough for them to be competitive and play field position games.

I have never ever advocated that Shafer was the ideal hire for HC but based on program state he was the next natural progression. He is doing a ton of learning on the job and in his first year took a team to a bowl game and won with a less than poor QB situation, a situation Marrone left him with. He has shown the ability to recruit and build a defense and is feeling his way in the dark and on a budget to build an offense, something he has never had to do. He has only had to stop them, he was good enough for Harbaugh to hire and take under his wing which is a solid endorsement IMHO. He has acknowledged mistakes he has made as a coach and is looking to build on that. When you consider the way he entered as his first year as the HC he did it in a semi-rushed fashion since ole Dougie bailed out in December near the end of the recruiting cycle and left him playing catchup from day 1. Cut the guy a break and see how his this season plays out before you burn the guy at the stake. If they have a poor offense ... I won't be happy with something ranked 70 or less myself ... then we gripe, unless they somehow win 8 games which again is not likely anyway. Shafer inherits Hunt who missed a lot of time last season ... Marrone inherits the all time leading passer in school history ... and people can say Marrone molded him which is fine however Nassib still had to make the throws and have the intelligence to run that no huddle scheme ... everyone wants to compare apples to oranges.

Dr. Gross dropped the ball when he rushed the hire after Marrone left. This board was split on whom to pick between Shafer and Hackett.

It is safe to say it wasn't an ideal situation for Shafer when he took over with that said he has gone backwards. 2014 was worse than anything from 2009 thru 2012. 2013 was an acceptable season but not good. Why did it get so bad from 2013 to 2014. People want patience and I willing to be patience if I feel the results will be there. This is more like blind faith. Sorry with Lester's performance from last year you don't get blind faith without it being scary.

If we look good I will be the first to eat my crow. However, the OC should know better than talk about 3 pro offenses when describing his system which has only been executed at the D-3 level.
 
I think SS was above-average as the DC. It doesn't mean he was great. The D has done an okay job with the lack of offensive support it has gotten. SS was never a candidate for a P5 job before Marrone left. He was hired to continue the momentum of Marrone. Marrone took over a program that had gone 10-37 in 4 years and brought it to 25-25 in 4 years.

Shafer didn't have a complete rebuild when he became HC. He is suppose to be going upward. To get where Doug Marrone was after 4 years SS has to go 15-10 in the next 2 years. Las Vegas has our O/U for wins in 2015 at 4.5.

Sorry if I am not optimistic. I want to be wrong. When the OC talks about 3 NFL offenses and the only experience is D-3 I get scared. The athletes and skill in D-3 is not even close to D-1AA and that is even talking about P5 D-1 football.

The offense has not shown ANYTHING. I mean its not exactly going to catch ANYONE that off guard. They would have more leeway if the spring game had excitement or this OC wasn't the OC over the worst 5 games from a P5 team in the last 10 years during the previous season.
8 of those wins, Akron-2, Maine-2, Colgate-1, Rhode Island-1, Stony Brook-1, Toledo-1, an officials gift, and Tulane a ninth win. Big East record was 11-17 with a 5-2 the last year. People need to look at the total 4 year record, not just the last year, we were a long way from being good, when Doug Left. I'm glad Doug came, but in reality there was still a lot of work to do when he left, one good year isn't a turnaround.
 
Not sure what you are trying to say. The O bailed the D in several wins. The Wake game in 2011, Toledo game in 2011, Kansas State-bowl game, Northwestern in 2009.

Our D was okay during the DM era, but it was never shutdown the opposing offense good. It got the job done but I mean it wasn't great. The Big East was never a great offensive conference. I give SS credit for owning the only real dominant O in WVU, but stop with these justification messages. Our D got a lot of manilla offense when we are getting our butts kicked or ahead.

Does the O get credit for scoring 37 points on Tulane and the D giving up 34? If your going to give the D credit for the Rutgers win in 2010 I guess then it should.

DM never had a dominant offense outside of 2012, but in games we won the offense scored for the most part. SS has been horrible in 2 yeas at putting a college offense on the field. It worse than anything DM ever put out and last year was on par with Pariani in 2005.
Look man you're simply dead wrong on this topic. There is absolutely do doubt whatsoever that the defense was much better than the offense during almost the entire Marrone era You nit picking a few games where the offense was good just isn't working for you. The defense was good the entire Marrone era and the offense wasn't. That's fact man undeniable fact. It was Shafer coaching that defense. Maybe you just don't want to acknowledged because you've decided you don't like him. I think you need to deal with reality not the way you want things to be

The reality of the situation right now is Marrone is a position coach in the NFL right where he started. Deal with it.
 
Shafer was also a very successful defensive coordinator with Stanford under JH. He got shafted at Michigan because he was forced to run a system that wasn't his and they had to use some one as scape goat at that time. Then Michigan had the audacity to hire GERG and the look what happened to their defense There's no question he's an excellent defensive coach.

His career will come down to who he hires an OC. Obviously MacDonald was a disaster. Lester seems to hold a bit more promise but we will see on the field. In the meantime all any of you are doing is guessing and trying to predict the future So I suggest being excited about the upcoming season and stop reliving last year
 

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