Lin's Departure Teaches Knicks Fans Important Lesson

[Knicks411]

I'll be honest; other than the Knicks I've mainly only paid attention to the bigger moves. I now remember that Mahimi came for Collison. Don't remember the other 2, but that makes the point every stronger.

 

[br801]

Sadly, it seems that nobody bothered to link to the Onion story that was the topic of the original post . . . should have known that defensive and fearful Knicks fans would have had their false bravado triggered

I did read the Onion piece, but there is unintentionally funnier stuff on this board every day.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I absolutely agree with you and feel he is not - i do agree with the thought that the Knicks should have played this differently though.

They had a commodity and didn't get anything in return for him leaving. Granted, they always planned to match until Lin played that up to get a ton and Dolan got pissed, but a little foresight would have been good. Sign and trade or something would have been better than this.

They still may match and hope they can deal him before the third year, so who knows.

They blew it. They should have offered him a deal at the end of the season, and instead they told him to test the market. He would have signed a 4 year deal for $24M - $6M a year. Instead they took their chances. This is probably his one shot at a contract, so you can't blame him for maxing the money.

 

[IthacaMatt]

he created buzz based on one week of solid play.. didnt he also fail to make two other rosters and player poorly after his brief run.. i think you can find 30 guards with the same potential off the street

It was more like a month - something like 20 games. But your point is a valid one. There's no guarantee that this kid is ever going to be an All-Star, and his production was much worse, once they got rid of D'Antoni and his system.

 

[Knicks411]

They blew it. They should have offered him a deal at the end of the season, and instead they told him to test the market. He would have signed a 4 year deal for $24M - $6M a year. Instead they took their chances. This is probably his one shot at a contract, so you can't blame him for maxing the money.

I doubt he would've signed that contract from the Knicks; why would he? At least try and top that offer on the open market.

Though I did find it weird the original offer from the Rockets was basiclaly 4 years 30 million with the last year only a team option.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Yea, but just playing Devils Advocate (I wanted Lin back), Lin can score but when Felton isnt fat, he plays hard-nosed defense and can take a hit, Lin looks fragile so far. The Knicks also want to play through Melo/Amare and Felton will do that and play more a sidekick role whereas Lin would want to dominate the ball more. Also the locker room could be an issue although thats because they have loose cannons like JR Smith who shoot their mouths off.

"Locker room" = Melo. Stoudamire was OK with Melo coming to NYC, and Melo took over as the lead dog, pushing Amare to sidekick status. Melo got rid of the coach. Melo got rid of the popular up-and-coming point guard, because if everyone is talking about "Linsanity", then he's the bigger star on the team, and Melo wouldn't have that.

As much as I loved him as an Orangeman, I'm really growing to dislike Melo since he's been on the Knicks. I want to love the guy, but so far, he hasn't done crap except be a problem. He doesn't defend. He doesn't play hard, and he is a huge ball hog. What happened to the kid who used to play for us?

 

[IthacaMatt]

I doubt he would've signed that contract from the Knicks; why would he? At least try and top that offer on the open market.

Though I did find it weird the original offer from the Rockets was basiclaly 4 years 30 million with the last year only a team option.

Are you kidding? Why wouldn't he have signed with the Knicks for nearly the same money he's getting now ? $24M to him would still have made him set for life, even if he got exposed as a mediocre player. He had been waived by 2 different teams, and there were enough questions about his talent that the Houston offer was really kind of a miracle for Lin.

I don't think the Knicks ever thought anyone would pony up that kind of money for him. He was far from a sure thing on the free agent market. How many people are lining up to sign Donte Greene? Just because you're available doesn't mean you are going to get crazy offers. Don't you think Donte would have been really happy to be offered the contract that the Knicks should have offered Lin?

 

[IthacaMatt]

Some people like facts, so here you go Lin 25 starts knicks go 15-10. The knicks started off winning the 1st 7 games with Lin, so 8-10 until he gets hurt. Then with a broken down old point guard Baron Davis, the knicks go 12-5 down the stretch to make the playoffs.

The difference is that Melo came back and they stopped running the D'Antoni system that was just beginning to click. It was more about Melo's ego and not playing the way the coach wanted him to play, than it was the fault of Lin, IMO.

 

[Knicks411]

I think there was no question that someone was going to offer him a decent offer sheet; seems like it is worth the risk to me. And he still probably could've signed for the 4/24 from the Knicks.

If the Knicks thought no one was going to take a run at him and they could get him on the cheap, then I am even more angry with them than I already am. I think it couldn't have hurt to offer him the 4/24 when FA started; I assume he would've tried to get a better offer first, but I could be wrong.

Maybe they should've played hardball with him; offer him that 4/24 at the start of FA, and then tell him if he shops the offer then the Knicks offer is off the table. Either he signs right away, or then exactly what did happen happens, and you still have the chance to match him.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I think there was no question that someone was going to offer him a decent offer sheet; seems like it is worth the risk to me. And he still probably could've signed for the 4/24 from the Knicks.

If the Knicks thought no one was going to take a run at him and they could get him on the cheap, then I am even more angry with them than I already am. I think it couldn't have hurt to offer him the 4/24 when FA started; I assume he would've tried to get a better offer first, but I could be wrong.

I agree - I'm angry at the Knicks. They could have signed him but didn't even offer, and told him to go test the market. How would that make you feel ? Like the team doesn't really want me. So that's how it turned out. And it's probably for the best, because, seriously, I think Melo really didn't like him because he was getting all the spotlight.

 

[Knicks411]

I agree - I'm angry at the Knicks. They could have signed him but didn't even offer, and told him to go test the market. How would that make you feel ? Like the team doesn't really want me. So that's how it turned out. And it's probably for the best, because, seriously, I think Melo really didn't like him because he was getting all the spotlight.

See honestly, if I'm Lin, I am almost happy they let me test the water, because it gives me the ability to make more money. But maybe i was more optimistic about Lin's chances ont he FA market than you.

Melo's legacy is very much up in the air the next year or two. May not be fair, but it's kinda the truth. If the team doesn't win (which I don't think they will) he's gonna get a ton of crap.

 

[moqui]

Those tickets were making people money on the secondary market -- NYK did not see any of that money. The Knicks were already selling out before Lin and will be selling out after Lin. When it comes to merchandising, the franchises see little of that money, it primarily goes to whoever manufactures the jerseys and tees. Re-signing Lin, from a financial standpoint, doesn't make any sense for the Knicks. David Barri (Wages of Wins) did a couple nice interviews recently talking about this, you may be able to find a couple replays with a little googling.

however, as Nate Silver points out, the MSG market cap increased significantly - up over $600 million - with the advent of Linsanity, and then tanked just on the rumor that the Knicks might not re-sign him

 

[Knicks411]

They could raise the ticket prices this year, though.

I'm a little surprised at the part on the merchandising; I think stuff sold at the games the entire league splits; but I thought I read that jerseys etc you sell at th eteam stores you get to keep all the money.

 

[Madbiker]

I agree - I'm angry at the Knicks. They could have signed him but didn't even offer, and told him to go test the market. How would that make you feel ? Like the team doesn't really want me. So that's how it turned out. And it's probably for the best, because, seriously, I think Melo really didn't like him because he was getting all the spotlight.

Totally agree. This wasn't just about money. Lin wanted to feel loved, wanted, and recruited. He's always been told he isn't good enough. Wanted to play at Stanford...they didn't want him. Undrafted free agent, cut by 2 NBA teams and a D-League team. If the Knicks had made it clear they "loved" and wanted him, I think he jumps at a 4 yr for $24 deal without ever talking to anyone else. Telling him to go shop himself was the beginning of the end. Sometimes pro teams are just plain stupid. He may never be a star caliber PG but he sure as hell is better than the mediocre Felton who BTW has stunk in every half court system he has played in, which is what Woodson plays.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

When have the knicks ever not thrown money at a situation and worried later?

Melo must have made it clear the Lin thing was not going to fly. He doesn't want a pick and roll point guard taking away his possessions.

Though, its interesting that they pursued Steve Nash so hard...as he plays the same kind of game. Ball dominant, pick and roll point.

 

[moqui]

They blew it. They should have offered him a deal at the end of the season, and instead they told him to test the market. He would have signed a 4 year deal for $24M - $6M a year.

how do you know that?

I agree that the Knicks misplayed this hand, but Lin had a part in that. He took the affirmative step of signing the Houston offer that contained a poison pill specifically designed to scare the Knicks off. Lin - the Harvard econ grad - certainly knew what he was signing. He could have demurred, and told Houston he would be happy to sign an offer sheet but not one structured like that.

The fact that the Knicks forced him to go onto the open market to establish his value says a lot about the Knicks, but the fact that Lin signed a sheet that handed a sandwich to the Knicks says just as much about Lin, IMO.

 

[Knicks411]

It says that he wanted to make as much money as he could, which is true for just about every athlete there is, especially one who hadn't signed any contract of substance yet.

I mentioned this before; the first offer sheet from Houston made no sense at all.

 

[MikeSU02]

They could raise the ticket prices this year, though.

I'm a little surprised at the part on the merchandising; I think stuff sold at the games the entire league splits; but I thought I read that jerseys etc you sell at th eteam stores you get to keep all the money.

And to keep the momentum for tickets going, they are going to stoke the CP3 to the Knicks (some way, some how eventually) to keep people on the hook.

 

[Knicks411]

I am not falling for that one.

 

[moqui]

It says that he wanted to make as much money as he could, which is true for just about every athlete there is, especially one who hadn't signed any contract of substance yet.

I mentioned this before; the first offer sheet from Houston made no sense at all.

it's a negotiation; he isn't just a passive receiver waiting for the offer sheet to float in through the window. He could have proposed modifications to the offer . . . hell, as far as we know, the poison pill year was his idea.

Whether it ws his idea or not, I don't think he wanted the Knicks to match; he knows how unrealistic Knicks fans are in their expectations, and I don't think he wanted the pressure.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

See honestly, if I'm Lin, I am almost happy they let me test the water, because it gives me the ability to make more money. But maybe i was more optimistic about Lin's chances ont he FA market than you.

Melo's legacy is very much up in the air the next year or two. May not be fair, but it's kinda the truth. If the team doesn't win (which I don't think they will) he's gonna get a ton of crap.

Melo's legacy up in the air? Have you lost your mind? Of course it is not fair, and it is not true. The guy is a Winner. Always will be. What he does in his professional career is still to be decided. But there is no debate on his legacy. Winner.

Don't let the NY media influence you to think otherwise (looks like they've got their hooks firmly in IM - the guy has lost it). I can understand that as a Knicks fan it can be frustrating to watch them slide back into semi-irrelevance. But don't let that anger be misguided towards Melo. That was not his decision.

 

[Knicks411]

it's a negotiation; he isn't just a passive receiver waiting for the offer sheet to float in through the window. He could have proposed modifications to the offer . . . hell, as far as we know, the poison pill year was his idea.

Right, but he wanted the most money he could get, which makes him no different than anyone in that situation. No way you can do that without the poison pill. I'm sure he wasn't going to say no to $25 million instead of $20 million (throwing out the team option for the 4th year, since that wasn't guaranteed).

I guess my point is what it says about him is that he wanted the best contract he could possibly get; and i don't really see the problem with that. He did the best he could for himself and I don't see how you could expect anyone else to do any differently.

 

[br801]

Melo's legacy up in the air? Have you lost your mind? Of course it is not fair, and it is not true. The guy is a Winner. Always will be. What he does in his professional career is still to be decided. But there is no debate on his legacy. Winner.

Don't let the NY media influence you to think otherwise (looks like they've got their hooks firmly in IM - the guy has lost it). I can understand that as a Knicks fan it can be frustrating to watch them slide back into semi-irrelevance. But don't let that anger be misguided towards Melo. That was not his decision.

Not only is his legacy as a player up in the air, so too is his legacy as a GM. So far the numerous coaching and personnel moves Carmelo has made in Denver and New York have not translated into much post season success.

 

[Knicks411]

Funny thing about that last post is I bet half the people think it's sarcastic and half think it's serious.

 

[moqui]

I'm sure he wasn't going to say no to $25 million instead of $20 million (throwing out the team option for the 4th year, since that wasn't guaranteed)..

that's the point . . . Houston proposed an offer sheet that wasn't to Lin's liking (4 years, 28M but only 3/20 guaranteed), so they renegotiated. The second one not only gave him more guaranteed money, but also a stronger poison pill that virtually guaranteed the Knicks would not match it. Remember, both offers had poison pills structured into them, but the second one was even stronger. The key thing here is that it looks like Houston and Lin worked together to come up with this deal. Jeremy - the Harvard economist - had input, possibly significant input, into how the final offer sheet was designed.

I don't have any problem with anyone trying to maximize their earnings - I am quite in favor of it. But I think all signs point to other motivations for Mr. Lin beyond simply financial. I just don't think he really wanted to play for the Knicks, and played the game beautifully to get both of his desires - to get paid, and to play elsewhere.