Lin's Departure Teaches Knicks Fans Important Lesson

[Knicks411]

I guess I just don't necessarily see it. They offered $20 million, he wanted to get more. Why does that necessarily mean he didn't want to be a Knick instead of he wanted more money from either side? Maybe I'm being naive, but all I see is he was offered one contract and then negotiated a more favorable contract. What are the other signs you are referring to? I read articles in the NY papers about how Lin wanted the Knicks to match; I'm not saying put any stock in those but I didn't really read anything saying the other. But either way, I think the bottom line was Lin wanted the most money he could get. I also think you are too sure the Knicks wouldn't have matched. You were right in hindsight of course, but I don't see it being obvious prior to that.

I'm a little curious if the Knicks screwed themselves over here, since they said they would match any offer, and Woodson even said Lin would be the starting PG. Maybe they showed their hand and the Rockets decided to put them to the test? Considering how much money the Knicks have spent in the past, I really don't see how Lin could have necessarily looked at the contract offer he got and could have been convinced that the Knicks wouldn't match. I do wonder if there was any discussion between Lin's agent and the Knicks prior to signing the offer sheet.

If he really didn't wan tot be a Knick his best bet would have been to play out the year and a unrestricted FA next year. Of course there was no chance of that, since the qualifying offer was $2.5 million or something like that.

 

[br801]

Funny thing about that last post is I bet half the people think it's sarcastic and half think it's serious.

I think you're wrong. Way more than half believe it's serious.

 

[Knicks411]

I am curious about how the timing of the offer sheet went. Lin and the Rockets clearly never officially agreed to the first deal. Maybe Houston comes up to Lin and says "let's renegotiate this and get you more guaranteed money and make it harder for the Knicks to match." Lin isn't going to say no to that. Or maybe he comes up to the Rockets and says the thing; maybe he thought he could manipulate the Rockets into increasing their offer while still thinking the Knicks were gonna match. Or not. I have no idea. I would love to know what exactly went down.

 

[moqui]

all I see is he was offered one contract and then negotiated a more favorable contract.

he could have negotiated a contract that was both more favorable to himself and also less onerous for the Knicks to match . . . instead, he chose to negotiate one that would force the Knicks to pay the equivalent of Michael Jordan money in year 3. He had to know that they couldn't stomach that . . . he's not a stupid guy, he is a Harvard econ grad. He knew full well what he was doing. He is just being disingenuous now in his protestations that he really wanted to play in NY. His actions speak the truth more clearly than his words, IMO.

 

[Knicks411]

he could have negotiated a contract that was both more favorable to himself and also less onerous for the Knicks to match .

How?

The first 2 years have to be $5 million. And we don't know that Houston would have guaranteed a fourth year.

 

[CorduroyG]

he could have negotiated a contract that was both more favorable to himself and also less onerous for the Knicks to match . . . instead, he chose to negotiate one that would force the Knicks to pay the equivalent of Michael Jordan money in year 3. He had to know that they couldn't stomach that . . . he's not a stupid guy, he is a Harvard econ grad. He knew full well what he was doing. He is just being disingenuous now in his protestations that he really wanted to play in NY. His actions speak the truth more clearly than his words, IMO.

why should he be worried about the knicks when hes negotiating what will probably be the biggest and most important contract of his life? if im lin im not saying to the rockets "i want a contract that gives me the most money but also is easy for the knicks to match". besides you think houston is gonna go along with that? knicks should have kept their mouths shut, once houston heard that the knicks were gonna match whatever houston offered they went back and made an offer that was gonna be alot tougher for the knicks to match.

 

[moqui]

How?

The first 2 years have to be $5 million. And we don't know that Houston would have guaranteed a fourth year.

no, we don't know, but they might have. We'll never know what Lin pushed for . . . all that we know is that he forced a renegotiation, and that the final result of that was a contract that the Knicks could not match. Lin was a full partner in that and knew full well what he was doing. Again, I don't begrudge him getting the money, but this Penny Pureheart act he is putting on is bullshit. He was a full and active participant in constructing this contract in this way.

 

[CorduroyG]

no, we don't know, but they might have. We'll never know what Lin pushed for . . . all that we know is that he forced a renegotiation, and that the final result of that was a contract that the Knicks could not match. Lin was a full partner in that and knew full well what he was doing. Again, I don't begrudge him getting the money, but this Penny Pureheart act he is putting on is bullshit. He was a full and active participant in constructing this contract in this way.

the final result was more guaranteed money in lin's pocket

 

[moqui]

why should he be worried about the knicks when hes negotiating what will probably be the biggest and most important contract of his life? if im lin im not saying to the rockets "i want a contract that gives me the most money but also is easy for the knicks to match". besides you think houston is gonna go along with that? knicks should have kept their mouths shut, once houston heard that the knicks were gonna match whatever houston offered they went back and made an offer that was gonna be alot tougher for the knicks to match.

I am not begrudging him signing this deal at all. My point is that he is lying when he says he really wanted to stay in New York and play with the Knicks . . . you are right, he shouldn't have been worried about the Knicks - and he wasn't. If anything, I think his actions show that he never wanted to play for the Knicks.

the final result was more guaranteed money in lin's pocket

there were an infinite number of other possible contract formulations between the first Houston offer and the final offer . . . Lin was a participant in constructing one at the extreme end that the Knicks could not match.

more guaranteed money was, indeed, one final result . . . the other was that he doesn't have to play for the Knicks any more. He got what he wanted, both ways

 

[Knicks411]

They might have, but we still don't know that would have happened, so I don't think you could say for sure he could have negotiated a contract that would have benefited him more and made the Knicks more likely to match.

Just like Lin wasn't just standing by waiting, neither were the Rockets. The Knicks have a ton of huge contracts coming off their books for what would have been the 4th year of a Lin contract; so why would Houston do anything to make it more likely the Knicks would match? Maybe Lin asked for four years guaranteed and the Rockets said no. It doesn't make much sense for the Rockets to guarantee a foruth year, since the Knicks wouldn't care nearly as much about that as the third year, and the Rockets probably weren't sold on Lin either, because of the small sample that he played. Between the Rockets and Lin, which side are you more confident in saying was going to try and craft a contract that the Knicks wouldn't match?I'd go with the Rockets.

 

[Knicks411]

just wanted to go back to this

he could have negotiated a contract that was both more favorable to himself and also less onerous for the Knicks to match

Why would Houston sign this contract?

What I really don't understand is why Houston offered the first contract in the first place. (And moqui, I guess that is your best response to my question). The Knicks were always going to match that one.

Do we agree that both of these statements are true

A) Lin wanted the most money he could get
B) He didn't necessarily care if he played for the Knicks

I can agree with that; that doesn't mean to me that he didn't want to be a Knick.

 

[CorduroyG]

I am not begrudging him signing this deal at all. My point is that he is lying when he says he really wanted to stay in New York and play with the Knicks . . . you are right, he shouldn't have been worried about the Knicks - and he wasn't. If anything, I think his actions show that he never wanted to play for the Knicks.


there were an infinite number of other possible contract formulations between the first Houston offer and the final offer . . . Lin was a participant in constructing one at the extreme end that the Knicks could not match.

more guaranteed money was, indeed, one final result . . . the other was that he doesn't have to play for the Knicks any more. He got what he wanted, both ways

id say houston was a bigger participant. whether the knicks matched the offer or not, lin was getting his money either way. but houston was not getting lin either way, so they had more incentive to make the contract as hard as possible for the knicks to match. what do you expect lin to say to houston? "ok guys, i want the most guaranteed money, but id prefer to stay in new york, so give me alot of money but also something that the knicks will probably match."

 

[longislandcuse]

This article will feel like a punch in the gut to Knicks fans. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/basketball/nba/07/18/jeremy-lin-exclusive/index.html

 

[Knicks411]

Honestly, I preferred New York," Lin said. "But my main goal in free agency was to go to a team that had plans for me and wanted me. ​

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The diplomatic way of saying "I wanted lots and lots of money"

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The last time Lin talked to Knicks owner James Dolan was right before Game 5 of the first round of the Eastern Conference playoffs, when New York was down, 3-1, to eventual NBA champion Miami. Lin, who had suffered a meniscus tear in his left knee, had been ruled out for the remainder of the regular season and had already missed the first four games of this playoff series. Now Dolan, with point guard Baron Davisalso injured, wondered about Lin's availability. But the matter had already been settled. "Every single vet on our team that has been in the league longer than five years pulled me aside and told me that I shouldn't play," Lin said. "And I had arguments with them about why I should."​

Dolan -- who didn't talk to Lin often but had generally been "really nice to me" -- wound up expressing support. "I have plans for you in the future," Lin recalled the owner saying. "This is a long-term investment. Don't rush back."​

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[Knicks411]

I absolutely buy that the veteran players were telling him not to play. They might never admit to it publicly, but if you have been in the league long enough I think you get it's a business first.

 

[moqui]

just wanted to go back to this



Why would Houston sign this contract?

as I noted, there are myriad possible formulations between their first offer and their final offer . . . they demonstrated through those offers that they were comfortable with both a less onerous poison pill (the first one) and with $25M guaranteed (the final one). There are lots of ways this could have been formulated. Now, if you think innocent little Jeremy Lin was just sitting there, waiting for them to hand him something,had no input on what it would contain, and was just grateful to have such a large guarantee land in his lap and was so, so sorry that it hurt the poor Knicks, then I will never convince you. I, on the other hand, think he is a smart & savvy kid and knew full well the details and what would best structure the offer sheet to fully serve all of his interests, and it seems somewhat evident to me that among them was an interest in not playing for the Knicks.

 

[Bayside44]

I'll be honest, I liked him, but I don't think he is strong / durable enough to last and NBA season plus playoffs and he did get exposed at the end of the run. Plus his defense stunk. Tough to invest those kind of dollars into that kind of player.

 

[Knicks411]

as I noted, there are myriad possible formulations between their first offer and their final offer . . . they demonstrated through those offers that they were comfortable with both a less onerous poison pill (the first one) and with $25M guaranteed (the final one). There are lots of ways this could have been formulated. Now, if you think innocent little Jeremy Lin was just sitting there, waiting for them to hand him something,had no input on what it would contain, and was just grateful to have such a large guarantee land in his lap and was so, so sorry that it hurt the poor Knicks, then I will never convince you. I, on the other hand, think he is a smart & savvy kid and knew full well the details and what would best structure the offer sheet to fully serve all of his interests, and it seems somewhat evident to me that among them was an interest in not playing for the Knicks.

Never said that. As I said, I think his primary goal was to get the most money possible, and if that meant he wasn't a Knick, then so be it. I don't think his primary goal was leaving the Knicks, and I don't think he actively didn't want to be a Knick.

 

[Knicks411]

Also there really weren't that many different combinations of contracts; I don't think it could be any m ore than 4 years, and the first 2 years had to be at roughly $5 million each. And he still ended up negotiating a better contract for himself, which was his goal from the start. And you don't know that Houston would've guaranteed that fourth year. So I'm not sure what this better contract offer would have been that the Knicks would've been more likely to match. I literally don't see any way you could draw up a different contract that would guarantee him more money over the same amount of years.

 

[CorduroyG]

Never said that. As I said, I think his primary goal was to get the most money possible, and if that meant he wasn't a Knick, then so be it. I don't think his primary goal was leaving the Knicks, and I don't think he actively didn't want to be a Knick.

exactly. he wanted the most money, if the knicks matched it great, if not oh well. i dont get where moqui is getting this from, like he went out of his way to negotiate a contract that the knicks wouldnt match cuz he didnt want to play there. why would he be so dead set against playing in new york?

 

[Ghost]

Totally agree. This wasn't just about money. Lin wanted to feel loved, wanted, and recruited. He's always been told he isn't good enough. Wanted to play at Stanford...they didn't want him. Undrafted free agent, cut by 2 NBA teams and a D-League team. If the Knicks had made it clear they "loved" and wanted him, I think he jumps at a 4 yr for $24 deal without ever talking to anyone else. Telling him to go shop himself was the beginning of the end. Sometimes pro teams are just plain stupid. He may never be a star caliber PG but he sure as hell is better than the mediocre Felton who BTW has stunk in every half court system he has played in, which is what Woodson plays.

It's interesting he chose to play for a team that didn't want him in the end...he showed them!

 

[longislandcuse]

This is freakin great!

#!

 

[longislandcuse]

And then theres this...The Knicks fans who need to be prescribed Xanax and thrown into anger management.

http://i.imgur.com/OBSyL.jpg

 

[NovaOrange]

Ghost your slowly becoming my favorite poster

 

[IthacaMatt]

how do you know that?

I agree that the Knicks misplayed this hand, but Lin had a part in that. He took the affirmative step of signing the Houston offer that contained a poison pill specifically designed to scare the Knicks off. Lin - the Harvard econ grad - certainly knew what he was signing. He could have demurred, and told Houston he would be happy to sign an offer sheet but not one structured like that.

The fact that the Knicks forced him to go onto the open market to establish his value says a lot about the Knicks, but the fact that Lin signed a sheet that handed a sandwich to the Knicks says just as much about Lin, IMO.

The poison pill offer sheet was after everything else had happened. You agree with me that the Knicks misplayed this, if they wanted him. I think the bottom line is that Melo's ego got in the way, and they will be worse for it.