Lin's Departure Teaches Knicks Fans Important Lesson

[IthacaMatt]

he could have negotiated a contract that was both more favorable to himself and also less onerous for the Knicks to match . . . instead, he chose to negotiate one that would force the Knicks to pay the equivalent of Michael Jordan money in year 3. He had to know that they couldn't stomach that . . . he's not a stupid guy, he is a Harvard econ grad. He knew full well what he was doing. He is just being disingenuous now in his protestations that he really wanted to play in NY. His actions speak the truth more clearly than his words, IMO.

You're skipping a couple steps in your analysis of how this played out. Lin did not make the first move, Lin did not enter into the poison pill 2nd offer until it was pretty plain that the Knicks didn't really want him. They never spoke to him the whole time, except for that dinner in LA. And even then, they made him fly down to meet them. Not how you ordinarily "recruit" a free agent.

 

[IthacaMatt]

no, we don't know, but they might have. We'll never know what Lin pushed for . . . all that we know is that he forced a renegotiation, and that the final result of that was a contract that the Knicks could not match. Lin was a full partner in that and knew full well what he was doing. Again, I don't begrudge him getting the money, but this Penny Pureheart act he is putting on is bullshit. He was a full and active participant in constructing this contract in this way.

How did Lin "Force" a negotiation? With whom? The Knicks MADE NO OFFER. What was he supposed to do ? Once he became a free agent, he received only ONE offer. It's hardly like he went out and played hardball until he knew that the Knicks were going to replace him with Felton.

 

[moqui]

The poison pill offer sheet was after everything else had happened. You agree with me that the Knicks misplayed this, if they wanted him. I think the bottom line is that Melo's ego got in the way, and they will be worse for it.

that's where we disagree . . . I think Lin's ego had much more to do with it than did Melo's

 

[baggerbob]

I'm sorry but the knicks played 15-10 with Lin, 8-10 after the start against weak teams, and 12-5 after he was hurt to make the playoffs. If he had at least come back, and tryed to play in the playoffs maybe you bring him back. To many people got caught up in the media hype, the Knicks won't miss him, but the rockets will regret losing their other guards.

 

[Knicks411]

I think Dolan's ego had the most to do with it.

 

[CorduroyG]

I dont think melo had anything to do with this.

 

[orange2win]

Confused about all the confusion here. An undrafted, unheralded rooky locks up a $25 million contract over 3 years and some folks are questioning if he did the right thing? The NBA is a business and Lin showed that he is worthy of his Harvard status, by negotiating the best deal imaginable for Mr. Lin. Both the Knicks and Houston got out manouvered by the kid. It's as simple as that.

 

[Ghost]

Confused about all the confusion here. An undrafted, unheralded rooky locks up a $25 million contract over 3 years and some folks are questioning if he did the right thing? The NBA is a business and Lin showed that he is worthy of his Harvard status, by negotiating the best deal imaginable for Mr. Lin. Both the Knicks and Houston got out manouvered by the kid. It's as simple as that.

When the difference is a few million (20 vs. 25 million or whatever) I think regular folk evaluate things differently. When I'm set for life either way, would I choose NYC or Houston? Where am I more marketable? Where is more fun? More challenging? Which team do I actually like. lol

If the kid got what he wanted than good for him. If he played the game and ended up in Houston, and was hoping to end up in NY, was he really the big winner because he's slightly richer. What's that extra million going to lock up for him, a 5th home?

Think of it this way, if you and all your friends graduate from college and 9 out of 10 get good jobs in NYC paying you all between 100-120K, and the other friend gets a job paying 125K because he leveraged a 118K offer from a place in NYC, but he has to work in Nowheresville, WV, did he really, really get over - even if he did lock up slightly more money?

I don't know what the kid was thinking, so who knows. I can't say he proved anything, since there no way to know what he truly wanted to accomplish. If it was JUST the contract, then I guess he did.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I dont think melo had anything to do with this.

Who do you suppose would have been the trouble in the locker room, if Lin had gotten that fat deal, then? Who was J.R. Smith talking about, if not his old buddy from Denver ?

 

[longislandcuse]

Who do you suppose would have been the trouble in the locker room, if Lin had gotten that fat deal, then? Who was J.R. Smith talking about, if not his old buddy from Denver ?

I assumed JR Smith was talking about JR Smith. He signed for less with NY this year knowing the Knicks have his Bird Rights after next year and will be able to give him a nice payday should he play well.

 

[quentin cassidy]

I have no idea if going to Houston is what Lin wanted or not, but ultimately I think being in Houston for the next couple years will be better for his career than being in New York. The Knicks are built to try to win now, and I don't think Lin is ready to be the starting PG on a contender just yet. He needs to improve his ball-handling and decision-making to cut down on his turnovers and improve defensively, and the Knicks don't really have time to wait for him to develop. In Houston, given their current roster, there will be no pressure at all to win games, and with very little competition on the roster at the PG position, he'll get big minutes all year long. This should help him reach his ultimate potential and could lead to an even bigger contract for him in 3 years, when he'll still only be 26 years old.

 

[realorange]

When the difference is a few million (20 vs. 25 million or whatever) I think regular folk evaluate things differently. When I'm set for life either way, would I choose NYC or Houston? Where am I more marketable? Where is more fun? More challenging? Which team do I actually like. lol

If the kid got what he wanted than good for him. If he played the game and ended up in Houston, and was hoping to end up in NY, was he really the big winner because he's slightly richer. What's that extra million going to lock up for him, a 5th home?

Think of it this way, if you and all your friends graduate from college and 9 out of 10 get good jobs in NYC paying you all between 100-120K, and the other friend gets a job paying 125K because he leveraged a 118K offer from a place in NYC, but he has to work in Nowheresville, WV, did he really, really get over - even if he did lock up slightly more money?

I don't know what the kid was thinking, so who knows. I can't say he proved anything, since there no way to know what he truly wanted to accomplish. If it was JUST the contract, then I guess he did.

Believe it or not, there are actually people who don't want to live in or around NYC.

 

[Ghost]

Believe it or not, there are actually people who don't want to live in or around NYC.

Not the point at all......i tried to make it pretty clear that I have no idea what Lin is actually thinking.

For all I know he really wants to live in Houston. In which case, he was the big winner. However, if he did really want to stay in NY, than just because he went from being super-wealthy to slightly more super-wealthy doesn't necesarily make him the world's shrewdest man.

 

[Knicks411]

Not the point at all......i tried to make it pretty clear that I have no idea what Lin is actually thinking.

For all I know he really wants to live in Houston. In which case, he was the big winner. However, if he did really want to stay in NY, than just because he went from being super-wealthy to slightly more super-wealthy doesn't necesarily make him the world's shrewdest man.

My guess is he didn't care that much either way; since if he really wanted to be in NY then he would've signed the first offer sheet which the Knicks almost surely would've matched on.

As I've said, I think his #1 goal was to make the most money possible, and he would've been fine playing in either Houston or NY.

 

[orangefog]

My guess is he didn't care that much either way; since if he really wanted to be in NY then he would've signed the first offer sheet which the Knicks almost surely would've matched on.

As I've said, I think his #1 goal was to make the most money possible, and he would've been fine playing in either Houston or NY.

I am sure he has confidence in his abilities, as he should, but he is a smart young man. He should capatilize on this rare opportunity while his stock is still high, because honestly, I don't think Linsanity is going to last. He may stay popular in the local Asian community wherever he plays, but I think that the league will figure him out pretty quickly and neutralize his limited skills.

 

[Ghost]

My guess is he didn't care that much either way; since if he really wanted to be in NY then he would've signed the first offer sheet which the Knicks almost surely would've matched on.

As I've said, I think his #1 goal was to make the most money possible, and he would've been fine playing in either Houston or NY.

Yeah, if money was all that was driving it, then he played it perfectly.

 

[orange2win]

When the difference is a few million (20 vs. 25 million or whatever) I think regular folk evaluate things differently. When I'm set for life either way, would I choose NYC or Houston? Where am I more marketable? Where is more fun? More challenging? Which team do I actually like. lol

If the kid got what he wanted than good for him. If he played the game and ended up in Houston, and was hoping to end up in NY, was he really the big winner because he's slightly richer. What's that extra million going to lock up for him, a 5th home?

Think of it this way, if you and all your friends graduate from college and 9 out of 10 get good jobs in NYC paying you all between 100-120K, and the other friend gets a job paying 125K because he leveraged a 118K offer from a place in NYC, but he has to work in Nowheresville, WV, did he really, really get over - even if he did lock up slightly more money?

I don't know what the kid was thinking, so who knows. I can't say he proved anything, since there no way to know what he truly wanted to accomplish. If it was JUST the contract, then I guess he did.

You know I was hoping Lin would see it exactly as you stated. I really wanted to see him to play here in NYC and keep the excitment going, but I had to recognize that the average NBA career lasts only 4.7 years and Lin could not sensibly expect a longer run. He already has shown himself to be injury prone. We cannot say he was foolish to go for the extra cash while he had the chance, but I actually agree with your sentiment that in long run he could have milked the worldwide media blitz for more than the cash differnce if he has stayed here in NYC. Of course, when you consider the pressure and expectations that would be on his shoulders as well as the jealousies of his underpaid peers here in NY, he probably saw Houston as a safer bet.

 

[CorduroyG]

When the difference is a few million (20 vs. 25 million or whatever) I think regular folk evaluate things differently. When I'm set for life either way, would I choose NYC or Houston? Where am I more marketable? Where is more fun? More challenging? Which team do I actually like. lol

If the kid got what he wanted than good for him. If he played the game and ended up in Houston, and was hoping to end up in NY, was he really the big winner because he's slightly richer. What's that extra million going to lock up for him, a 5th home?

Think of it this way, if you and all your friends graduate from college and 9 out of 10 get good jobs in NYC paying you all between 100-120K, and the other friend gets a job paying 125K because he leveraged a 118K offer from a place in NYC, but he has to work in Nowheresville, WV, did he really, really get over - even if he did lock up slightly more money?

I don't know what the kid was thinking, so who knows. I can't say he proved anything, since there no way to know what he truly wanted to accomplish. If it was JUST the contract, then I guess he did.

I get that hes getting a stuffload of money either way, whether its 20 or 25 million. but its not like lin is in lebron james territory where its easy for him to take less money to go to miami, or in lin's case new york. theres a good chance this is the biggest and most important contract he'll ever sign in his life, he could flame out and be riding the bench in 2 years. there are pro athletes in every sport who have been around a long time and have ridiculous amounts of money who still hold out for every last cent, its hard to take less money no matter who you are, especially for a guy who didnt even know he had a future in the nba 6 months ago.

 

[Knicks411]

Also throw in the fact that the union always encourages guys to take the most money they can.

 

[Ghost]

I get that hes getting a stuffload of money either way, whether its 20 or 25 million. but its not like lin is in lebron james territory where its easy for him to take less money to go to miami, or in lin's case new york. theres a good chance this is the biggest and most important contract he'll ever sign in his life, he could flame out and be riding the bench in 2 years. there are pro athletes in every sport who have been around a long time and have ridiculous amounts of money who still hold out for every last cent, its hard to take less money no matter who you are, especially for a guy who didnt even know he had a future in the nba 6 months ago.

I get all of that, but you have tons of players that take less as well. Jared Weaver took 85 million to stay in LA because it's where he's from. Boras was livid because he could have gotten 100m+ on the open market. Just to be clear, the post I originally responded to was wondering how people could even question what he did because he got the best deal out there.

My point is primarily that a lot of people (especially those w/out 8m per year salaries) could easily evaluate it differently and see some flaws in his strategy (if they think he ultimately wanted to be in NY - which maybe he did not.) Who knows, maybe he could make up the difference with additional marketing opporutnites in NY, maybe not. I'm not sure, just saying that I can see plenty or reasons why people might think he didn't exactly win the life lotto because he squeezed out an extra few million in Houston.

I'm really not trying to argue either way. I don't think he's very good, so either way he's a big winner in my eyes.

 

[moqui]

Confused about all the confusion here. An undrafted, unheralded rooky locks up a $25 million contract over 3 years and some folks are questioning if he did the right thing? The NBA is a business and Lin showed that he is worthy of his Harvard status, by negotiating the best deal imaginable for Mr. Lin. Both the Knicks and Houston got out manouvered by the kid. It's as simple as that.

Plenty of people are questioning whether the Knicks did the right thing, but nobody is questioning whether Lin did the right thing . . . all I'm saying is that I think he is lying when he says his first preference was to stay in New York.

 

[moqui]

How did Lin "Force" a negotiation?

• Houston presented an offer sheet
• Lin didn't sign it
• so they came back with a second offer

that's a renegotiation . . .

If he was serious about keeping the Knicks in the game and maintaining at least a potential chance to remain in NY, Lin could have refused the 2nd and told the Rockets to re-work it again when it was obvious that the 2nd offer sheet made it highly unlikely the Knicks would match. There are many, many creative ways to have worked it out so that (a) Houston would have been more likely get Lin than they were with the first offer and at the same time (b) give the Knicks somewhat of a realistic thought of matching.

Lin chose the route that was most likely to avoid a return to New York.

I'm glad the kid is getting paid, and I am neither Knick fan nor a Rockets fan, so I have no skin in the game either way. I'm just pointing out that Lin was an active participant in the way this all shook down, and the image being portrayed that this Harvard educated econ major was really an innocent naif with no pull or ability to influence anything is bulls*t.

 

[Knicks411]

I disagree with you being so sure the Knicks wouldn't match the second offer. You had the leak that the Knicks would match anything up to a billion dollars, and you had Woodson saying Lin was going to be the starting PG.

If you read the NY papers, it sounds like Dolan got mad that the offer sheet signed was not the original one we heard about and not matching was very much a personal decision. I think it's 20-20 hindsight to say that the Knicks clearly weren't going to match the contract.

There are many, many creative ways to have worked it out so that (a) Houston would have been more likely get Lin than they were with the first offer and at the same time (b) give the Knicks somewhat of a realistic thought of matching.

You've said this a few times, but you haven't given an example. They were hamstrung in many ways in what they could offer. First 2 years had to be at roughly $5 million. There was no indication they would guarantee a 4th year. How do you propose threading that needle other than having Lin turn down money?

I'm just pointing out that Lin was an active participant in the way this all shook down, and the image being portrayed that this Harvard educated econ major was really an innocent naif with no pull or ability to influence anything is bulls*t.

You seemed to be saying before that Lin actively didn't want to play for the Knicks. I don't have any issue with the statement quoted.

 

[moqui]

You've said this a few times, but you haven't given an example. They were hamstrung in many ways in what they could offer. First 2 years had to be at roughly $5 million. There was no indication they would guarantee a 4th year. How do you propose threading that needle other than having Lin turn down money?

there is no indication that they wouldn't guarantee a 4th year, either, if Lin had pressed them on the issue, is there?

How about this: 5-5-9-12 with the 4th year partially guaranteed & fully guaranteed if certain performance markers are met? Then he gets $25M & possibly more, with an out for the team and with less of a tax hit for the Knicks if they choose to match.

There are myriad ways to formulate this deal . . . once they showed a willingness to change their first offer, the ability to be creative was in the Harvard trained economists hands, and we see what the final result was.

You seemed to be saying before that Lin actively didn't want to play for the Knicks.

I'm still saying that. If he really wanted to play for the Knicks, he had cards to play to make it more rather than less likely as an outcome. He was a co-author of this play, and I believe that he got what he wanted, both in money and in destination, and he is lying when he says that NY was his preference.

 

[Knicks411]

there is no indication that they wouldn't guarantee a 4th year, either, if Lin had pressed them on the issue, is there?

What is the evidence that Lin didn't? What player wouldn't rather get an extra guaranteed year than not get one? I think you're reaching on this particular point. Occam's razor says that the reason Lin didn't get a guaranteed fourth year is because Houston wouldn't guarantee it.

How about this: 5-5-9-12 with the 4th year partially guaranteed & fully guaranteed if certain performance markers are met? Then he gets $25M & possibly more, with an out for the team and with less of a tax hit for the Knicks if they choose to match.

This gets us back to the first part; we have no idea if Houston was willing to guarantee a fourth year. We obviously can't tell either way, but if they were, I don't see Lin saying no, so I'm guessing they weren't. That proposal is very similar to the original offer the Rockets made; only difference being the last year in their offer was a team option, and the total value was like $500,000 less.



And it also gets back to the point that while Lin wasn't an innocent bystander in this, either was Houston. It's in their best interests to create a contract the Knicks aren't going to match. Which makes the first offer you heard about a little interesting. I would like to know what happened between the original offer sheet and the final one that came out.