Marrone talent pool

[Pyle]

I apologize for being a bit of a . The only thing that matters is coaching. If recruiting under Marrone was awful, which I don't agree with, than that shows he was an even better coach than he's given credit for. Shafer is continuing the trajectory of improving our recruiting, now he needs to show that he can be a HC, make good hires, and make good game day decisions.

How does that prove he's a better coach? He was left high-end talent with no depth. Since Grob left what was our best LB tandem? Hogue/Smith- Grob guys. Best OL - Pugh..Grob again, WR's - Sales, Lemon...Grob, QB-Nassib...Grob. Marrone spent 4 years here during which time he developed Grob's players. Do you think Marrone was the only one developing guys? The entire defensive staff is still here but our defense isn't nearly as good as it was Marrone's first year. Talent is lacking but improving.

 

[qdawgg]

How does that prove he's a better coach? He was left high-end talent with no depth. Since Grob left what was our best LB tandem? Hogue/Smith- Grob guys. Best OL - Pugh..Grob again, WR's - Sales, Lemon...Grob, QB-Nassib...Grob. Marrone spent 4 years here during which time he developed Grob's players. Do you think Marrone was the only one developing guys? The entire defensive staff is still here but our defense isn't nearly as good as it was Marrone's first year. Talent is lacking but improving.

I think you're helping me make my main point. Thank you.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Would have been interesting to see

Robinson recruits that were drafted:

Williams, Carter, Hogue, Jones, Nassib, Pugh.

Marrone:

Tiller, Thomas, Bromley, Spruill

As arbiter of recruiting credit, I give Go an A+ for properly crediting each coach with the correct players. Well done.

 

[GoSU96]

Well, the NFL disagrees with you.

They do?

14 Robinson players got some kind of contract, to date 22 for Marrone with recruits from three different classes still on the roster.

You must be the kind of genius who thinks six is twice as many as four or that the roster Marrone inherited was better than the one he left.

 

[rrlbees]

Never knew that. Good stuff.

Memory is shaky but I think it was Brinkley and Carter? that were either injured or coming off injury. Is that also the year Hogue ripped off a long run vs PSU?

 

[CIL]

Marrone knew exactly what kind of player he needed for his system to be successful - stars and offers be damned. He was of the belief that he could scheme receivers open and find backs that fit his zone running scheme.

In some ways Alec Lemon really bodied this philosophy. I know he was recruited initially under GRob, but if you remember Marrone rescinded a bunch of offers. Doug liked bigger framed receivers that could catch the ball - he didn't need them to create a bunch of separation because he could scheme that.

Alec had a great career here despite rather pedestrian combine type numbers. You could say the same about Sales.

Doug could have been a great college football coach had he liked the other things that came along with it. Unfortunately, recruiting has evolved (perhaps devolved) into something he didn't particulary care for or enjoy.

 

[CIL]

Memory is shaky but I think it was Brinkley and Carter? that were either injured or coming off injury. Is that also the year Hogue ripped off a long run vs PSU?

Rutgers I think.

 

[dasher]

why do we keep regressing back to the Grob-Marrone cubbard bare circle jerk? Can we move past this and win some effin football games? We went 3-9, should have been 2-9. There is a correlation regarding the number of games one over consecutive years and players drafted

Maybe because we are still using Marrone players?

They do?

14 Robinson players got some kind of contract, to date 22 for Marrone with recruits from three different classes still on the roster.

You must be the kind of genius who thinks six is twice as many as four or that the roster Marrone inherited was better than the one he left.

Really? How many of those were 1st round picks? 2ud round picks? Or are you the type of genius that thinks a free agent signings is the same as an early round pick?

 

[rrlbees]

Rutgers I think.

You're probably right. Memory doesn't go back too well. Just remember an early season game where he had a long TD run.

 

[TheCusian]

I agree. So what you're saying is that last years record is solely on the coaching staff?

Huh? No. I'm saying that between the offensive coaching and the offensive players (largely recruited by Marrone) - we saw the result. You can't put it on scheme or talent alone. That would be silly. It's both. (Along with a crazy number of injuries. And playing really good defensive teams).

What we don't know is how great of a recruiter Shafer really is (esp NFL talent) since his guys are all soph and freshman. We also don't know how good Lester or his scheme is.

 

[CusefanATL]

Memory is shaky but I think it was Brinkley and Carter? that were either injured or coming off injury. Is that also the year Hogue ripped off a long run vs PSU?

Rutgers which i think put us up 14-0. all down hill after that.

 

[GoSU96]

Memory is shaky but I think it was Brinkley and Carter? that were either injured or coming off injury. Is that also the year Hogue ripped off a long run vs PSU?

It was Rutgers in the Rain.

SU up 14 nothing. Then nothing but awful.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Marrone knew exactly what kind of player he needed for his system to be successful - stars and offers be damned. He was of the belief that he could scheme receivers open and find backs that fit his zone running scheme.

In some ways Alec Lemon really bodied this philosophy. I know he was recruited initially under GRob, but if you remember Marrone rescinded a bunch of offers. Doug liked bigger framed receivers that could catch the ball - he didn't need them to create a bunch of separation because he could scheme that.

Alec had a great career here despite rather pedestrian combine type numbers. You could say the same about Sales.

Doug could have been a great college football coach had he liked the other things that came along with it. Unfortunately, recruiting has evolved (perhaps devolved) into something he didn't particulary care for or enjoy.

That tells me actually that Marrone had a low ceiling. Feels to me like he was comfortable having things be harder on himself so long as he got to do it the way he wanted. The lack of wide receiver recruiting really puzzled me under Marrone, but it makes sense if he felt he didn't need dynamic players there.

 

[RF2044]

That tells me actually that Marrone had a low ceiling. Feels to me like he was comfortable having things be harder on himself so long as he got to do it the way he wanted. The lack of wide receiver recruiting really puzzled me under Marrone, but it makes sense if he felt he didn't need dynamic players there.

ANY coach that doesn't recruit well is going to have a low ceiling. Coaching is very important, but talent trumps all. I'd say that in terms of talent versus coaching, it is easily 80/20 -- maybe more.

 

[GoSU96]

Maybe because we are still using Marrone players?

Really? How many of those were 1st round picks? 2ud round picks? Or are you the type of genius that thinks a free agent signings is the same as an early round pick?

Enough to know that thinking that two draft picks over four years doesn't prove a thing.

So now two first round picks, one a brother of a P recruit and the other a guy that never played a snap for Robinson are proof that Marrone couldn't recruit?

Since football isn't basketball 18 FA vs 8 FA is a pretty good indication of the overall improvement in the roster.

 

[TheCusian]

Enough to know that thinking that two draft picks over four years doesn't prove a thing. So now two first round picks, one a brother of a P recruit and the other a guy that never played a snap for Robinson are proof that Marrone couldn't recruit? Since football isn't basketball 18 FA vs 8 FA is a pretty good indication of the overall improvement in the roster.

There are a lot of different metrics you could go with. But using FA signings in lieu of draftees is pretty weak. It proves Marrone was good at getting mediocre guys and coaching them up. That's a fine résumé. I'd take his results over Robinsons any day all day. But I'd rather have talent and good coaching.

There is a straight line from Marrone's recruits to this seasons results. Offensive coaching played a part - but you simply can't let Marrone off the hook.

 

[GoSU96]

There are a lot of different metrics you could go with. But using FA signings in lieu of draftees is pretty weak. It proves Marrone was good at getting mediocre guys and coaching them up. That's a fine résumé. I'd take his results over Robinsons any day all day. But I'd rather have talent and good coaching.

There is a straight line from Marrone's recruits to this seasons results. Offensive coaching played a part - but you simply can't let Marrone off the hook.

Guys that get invited to NFL camps are mediocre?

And where did I say in lieu of?

I never left out the number of guys that got drafted.

 

[Full_Rebar]

There are a lot of different metrics you could go with. But using FA signings in lieu of draftees is pretty weak. It proves Marrone was good at getting mediocre guys and coaching them up. That's a fine résumé. I'd take his results over Robinsons any day all day. But I'd rather have talent and good coaching.

There is a straight line from Marrone's recruits to this seasons results. Offensive coaching played a part - but you simply can't let Marrone off the hook.

2014 Syracuse Offense
Leading QB- Hunt
Leading RB-PTG
Leading WR- West
Best OL- Hickey

Yep, Marrone's on the hook for all of them.

 

[CIL]

That tells me actually that Marrone had a low ceiling. Feels to me like he was comfortable having things be harder on himself so long as he got to do it the way he wanted. The lack of wide receiver recruiting really puzzled me under Marrone, but it makes sense if he felt he didn't need dynamic players there.

I really think you are misinterpreting my post. He wasn't recruiting against the like of St. John Fisher and Mercyhurst - his last class was looking pretty good when he left.

Marrone had a lot of confidence in his coaching ability at this level. He needed the right guys for his system - ratings be damned.

 

[Pyle]

I think you're helping me make my main point. Thank you.

You're Welcome? My point is that if he was such a good coach, we should have that caliber of player now because he would have developed them regardless of talent level, but that's not true. He needed high end talent to make those guys into NFL players, and he developed the rest of the guys into good depth, problem is when he left, we had depth but no more high end talent. Not even Marrone can make mousse out of mud, he needs a little chocolate and milk too and he didn't know how to find it himself.

 

[RF2044]

You're Welcome? My point is that if he was such a good coach, we should have that caliber of player now because he would have developed them regardless of talent level, but that's not true. He needed high end talent to make those guys into NFL players, and he developed the rest of the guys into good depth, problem is when he left, we had depth but no more high end talent. Not even Marrone can make mousse out of mud, he needs a little chocolate and milk too and he didn't know how to find it himself.

Marrone did not have "high end talent," by any measure. That includes Nassib, Lemon, Smith, Carter, Hogue, etc. who were fine collegiate players but borderline NFL prospects and far from "high end talent" compared to the rest of college football.

 

[Full_Rebar]

I really think you are misinterpreting my post. He wasn't recruiting against the like of St. John Fisher and Mercyhurst - his last class was looking pretty good when he left.

Marrone had a lot of confidence in his coaching ability at this level. He needed the right guys for his system - ratings be damned.

He also had confidence in his offensive system and looked for the right fit to understand how it needed to operate.

 

[Pyle]

Marrone did not have "high end talent," by any measure. That includes Nassib and Lemon, who were fine players but far from "high end talent" compared to the rest of college football.

Lemon always had skills, Marrone needed to make him into a worker. Nassib was named the starter as a frosh until DM got Paulus to come here for a year. All I'm trying to say is you can't develop everyone into D1 talent, there has to be a fair amount of natural ability to coach in the first place. Guys like Nassib, Hogue, Sales, Carter had it. Alot of the guys Marrone brought here himself never morphed into the type of players that he was able to make out of Grob recruits.

 

[RF2044]

Lemon always had skills, Marrone needed to make him into a worker. Nassib was named the starter as a frosh until DM got Paulus to come here for a year. All I'm trying to say is you can't develop everyone into D1 talent, there has to be a fair amount of natural ability to coach in the first place. Guys like Nassib, Hogue, Sales, Carter had it. Alot of the guys Marrone brought here himself never morphed into the type of players that he was able to make out of Grob recruits.

Nobody questions a kid like Lemon's talent--he was a fine player--one of the best players in the world at his position, which is why he had a cup of coffee in the NFL [and his story is still being written, btw]. He was a fine college player. He just wasn't "high end talent" -- look at the players from the power programs as a basis of comparison. Ditto Hogue, Carter, and probably Nassib. It doesn't detract from those players' accomplishments, or undersell their talent--to the contrary, those guys made it to the NFL. That Marrone was able to win with those caliber of players being our best players, and without a roster full of players at least as good or better than them, suggests that Marrone was a pretty solid coach.

I don't get the point you are making about "you can't develop everyone into D1 talent." Of course--you can't take a badminton player and turn him into a DT. But it isn't like Marrone was recruiting scrubs as some posts in this thread seem to suggest. He improved the overall depth, talent, and size of the team tangibly over the course of his brief tenure. He just didn't land skilled talent that would enable the program to take his success to the next level [not sure that can be disupted]. But it isn't like he was recruiting a bunch of non-D1 caliber athletes--his recruiting improved every season, year over year. So did the results on the field for the most part [with the blip in 2011, due to massive injuries].

Your point about what he was able to make out of GRob recruits only applies in a handful of cases, across a roster of 85 players. There were numerous examples of Marrone's recruits performing at a high level [example--Shamarko Thomas]. In fact, I think Marrone's coaching staff did a more than adquate recruiting every positional unit except QB and WR. The results there were subpar.

 

[tep624]

Nobody questions a kid like Lemon's talent--he was a fine player--one of the best players in the world at his position, which is why he had a cup of coffee in the NFL [and his story is still being written, btw]. He was a fine college player. He just wasn't "high end talent" -- look at the players from the power programs as a basis of comparison. Ditto Hogue, Carter, and probably Nassib. It doesn't detract from those players' accomplishments, or undersell their talent--to the contrary, those guys made it to the NFL. That Marrone was able to win with those caliber of players being our best players, and without a roster full of players at least as good or better than them, suggests that Marrone was a pretty solid coach.

I don't get the point you are making about "you can't develop everyone into D1 talent." Of course--you can't take a badminton player and turn him into a DT. But it isn't like Marrone was recruiting scrubs as some posts in this thread seem to suggest. He improved the overall depth, talent, and size of the team tangibly over the course of his brief tenure. He just didn't land skilled talent that would enable the program to take his success to the next level [not sure that can be disupted]. But it isn't like he was recruiting a bunch of non-D1 caliber athletes--his recruiting improved every season, year over year. So did the results on the field for the most part [with the blip in 2011, due to massive injuries].

Your point about what he was able to make out of GRob recruits only applies in a handful of cases, across a roster of 85 players. There were numerous examples of Marrone's recruits performing at a high level [example--Shamarko Thomas]. In fact, I think Marrone's coaching staff did a more than adquate recruiting every positional unit except QB and WR. The results there were subpar.

For every Nassib there was a flameout or a complete non-contributor that Marrone inherited from GRob.

Marrone's biggest weaknesses as far as the roster were - 1) not recruiting elite talent, specifically on the offensive side of the ball, 2) Poor recruiting at QB and 3) Poor recruiting/bad luck (Knapp & K. Curtis) at OL recruiting, specifically bad luck with injuries in his 2nd and 3rd classes and poor recruiting in the 4th even prior to him leaving. The OL recruiting had a major impact on Shafer's season last year.

Part of the OL gap could have been addressed by Shafer last year by aggressively pursuing and landing some high end JUCO OL - that didn't happen either. So the OL thing isn't all on Marrone.