Marroneball

[Czar]

You know, your posts are much more persuasive when you pretend that you're cursing.

I really have not studied this issue to the degree that you apparently have, but it seems to me that most of the teams that have won the BCS lately have had balance. Indeed, most teams that have won lately have run the ball a great deal with athletic QBs - see Florida's Tebow, Auburn's Newton, and Texas' Young.

Indeed, the style that has prevailed lately is pretty consistent with what SU was doing in the late 1980s and 1990s.

So, if you are suggesting that SU should try to recruit athletic QBs who can pass and run, I'm with you - I think that's a good strategy.

Athletic QB's who can run and pass are good, because those teams ran the new variant of the speed option offense (Which Oregon does as well, and which they all stole and upgraded from Tom Osborne and the Nebraska Deathsquads).

Texas: Take away Vince Young's carries, and it's about 57/43 for Rush to Pass.
Florida: Even closer, 399 pass for 476 run in 2006, in 2008 it skewed even more towards run, but again the QB is accounting for a LOT of those runs.
Auburn: 2/1 Run to Pass, and again that basically is all because of Cam Newton.

You really do not see a lot of teams who rely on the RB for rushing attempts and run 2 times for every 1 pass play at the top of the rankings anymore. That only works when you have a QB who can provide the threat of passing as well as running. Hence, why Broyld is a GIGANTIC get for us and needs to get on campus.

 

[Czar]

Who are "most people" who hated the McNabb pick? Do you live in Philly?

Nobody knew if Don could pass and yet he was underutilized in that regard?

A lot of NFL Draft Guru's like Akili Smith more because Akili Smith passed the ball a lot more.

And by nobody knew if he could pass, they didn't know because for them only 1,000 career attempts is usually a small sample size for a Top 5 pick, and he ran in an option system with not very complicated passing routes and lack of timed routes. Complete ing wildcard in that regard.

 

[OrangePA]

That's not my recollection.

I recall that Jon Gruden raved about McNabb at the Senior Bowl.

And of course Andy Reid, a great QB coach, loved him in college.

The consensus was that the McNabb pick was the right pick for the Eagles.

I think what you're referring to is a local sports talk show host Angelo Cataldi and a local politician, Ed Rendell who wanted the
Eagles to draft Williams the RB out of Texas. Angelo took a bunch of his listeners to NYC to boo the pick.

Question - And I mean nothing by it. How old are you?

 

[OrangePA]

Athletic QB's who can run and pass are good, because those teams ran the new variant of the speed option offense (Which Oregon does as well, and which they all stole and upgraded from Tom Osborne and the Nebraska Deathsquads).

Texas: Take away Vince Young's carries, and it's about 57/43 for Rush to Pass.
Florida: Even closer, 399 pass for 476 run in 2006, in 2008 it skewed even more towards run, but again the QB is accounting for a LOT of those runs.
Auburn: 2/1 Run to Pass, and again that basically is all because of Cam Newton.

You really do not see a lot of teams who rely on the RB for rushing attempts and run 2 times for every 1 pass play at the top of the rankings anymore. That only works when you have a QB who can provide the threat of passing as well as running. Hence, why Broyld is a GIGANTIC get for us and needs to get on campus.

Stole from Osborne?

I have never heard that one before.

How about stole from the pro option?

Or maybe Bill Yeoman?

 

[Czar]

Stole from Osborne?

I have never heard that one before.

How about stole from the pro option?

Or maybe Bill Yeoman?

Stole, borrowed, adapted, learned from, etcetera. Point is most of the teams you posted (Florida, Auburn, Texas) used the speed option to great effect because it is a simple, but very deadly play. And most of those coaches learned the speed option from Osborne, who pioneered and came up with the idea of that option variant.

Note: The Speed Option is a hell of a lot ing better than the freeze option.

 

[Chip]

Without agreeing that we're some kind of run run pass punt offense (I don't think we are), I think the comparisons to certain schools shouldn't really apply here.

1. LSU - Typically has the best defensive talent in the nation year in and year out. They can afford to be a little conservative on offense.
2. Alabama - See LSU
3. Georgia Tech - They aren't run run pass punt, they are run run run run. Johnson loves going for it on 4th down. And the way they run the ball is hardly something to compare to a conventional running game.
4. Wisconsin - Traditionally recruits some of the best run blocking offensive linemen in all of college football. But I do recall that part of why Brian White was phased out of there was because they were going to go a little more vertical with the passing game. There were several articles about this back in 2006 when we hired White.

Syracuse doesn't traditionally enjoy some of the luxuries that these schools do. Which is why we would usually have to be innovative on offense. We may not have had the passing #'s most years. But we had very athletic QBs who could run as easily as throw, and we had a scheme that could be very difficult to stop with the right personnel running it.

I'm with Scooch on this, whatever get us scoring the most points, above average points, is what I'd like to see. Maybe we get there when Marrone has all his pieces in place. I don't know for sure, but personally Ilike that the younger QBs coming up are much more athletic. I think it can only help us.

 

[Millhouse]

Well, then why haven't we?

Why do all the coaches we hire fail to do what you think we should do?

all the coaches we hire ha.

we've had 4 head coaches in 30 years. it's not like that's a big sample

 

[Millhouse]

Without agreeing that we're some kind of run run pass punt offense (I don't think we are), I think the comparisons to certain schools shouldn't really apply here.

1. LSU - Typically has the best defensive talent in the nation year in and year out. They can afford to be a little conservative on offense.
2. Alabama - See LSU
3. Georgia Tech - They aren't run run pass punt, they are run run run run. Johnson loves going for it on 4th down. And the way they run the ball is hardly something to compare to a conventional running game.
4. Wisconsin - Traditionally recruits some of the best run blocking offensive linemen in all of college football. But I do recall that part of why Brian White was phased out of there was because they were going to go a little more vertical with the passing game. There were several articles about this back in 2006 when we hired White.

Syracuse doesn't traditionally enjoy some of the luxuries that these schools do. Which is why we would usually have to be innovative on offense. We may not have had the passing #'s most years. But we had very athletic QBs who could run as easily as throw, and we had a scheme that could be very difficult to stop with the right personnel running it.

I'm with Scooch on this, whatever get us scoring the most points, above average points, is what I'd like to see. Maybe we get there when Marrone has all his pieces in place. I don't know for sure, but personally Ilike that the younger QBs coming up are much more athletic. I think it can only help us.

Here's where we were on offense from 91 to 98. Fair sample of our best years i think?

1991 33 overall, 61 passing
1992 14, 37
1993 42, 32
1994 69, 89
1995 50, 74
1996 35, >50 (could only find top 50 in the random scanned stat pdfs I scrounged up)
1997 15, 40
1998 22, 68

They averaged 35th overall, 56th in passing (at best - 1996 we might've been 51st, or 100th or anything in between

And that's when they were as loaded on offense as we're ever going to be. I think they could've been better than 35th over that timeframe. I don't think we're ever getting athletes like that again but I think Marrone can get us into the 30s if he can recruit at all

fwiw, those are averages of averages which isn't perfect but it was quick and dirty.

 

[OrangePA]

A lot of NFL Draft Guru's like Akili Smith more because Akili Smith passed the ball a lot more.

And by nobody knew if he could pass, they didn't know because for them only 1,000 career attempts is usually a small sample size for a Top 5 pick, and he ran in an option system with not very complicated passing routes and lack of timed routes. Complete ******* wildcard in that regard.

Still curious.

How old are you?

How long have you been watching college football?

 

[Chip]

Here's where we were on offense from 91 to 98. Fair sample of our best years i think?

1991 33 overall, 61 passing
1992 14, 37
1993 42, 32
1994 69, 89
1995 50, 74
1996 35, >50 (could only find top 50 in the random scanned stat pdfs I scrounged up)
1997 15, 40
1998 22, 68

They averaged 35th overall, 56th in passing (at best - 1996 we might've been 51st, or 100th or anything in between

And that's when they were as loaded on offense as we're ever going to be. I think they could've been better than 35th over that timeframe. I don't think we're ever getting athletes like that again but I think Marrone can get us into the 30s if he can recruit at all

Is that scoring though or just total offense?

If total offense, I'd be curious where we were in scoring. We had some stinkers in all those years for sure (we know it as well as anyone) but it also seemed like we scored a lot of points.

It's even harder now because we don't have the built in recruiting advantages, like no competition in the area, and we recruited athletic QBs that other schools wanted to convert. If Donovan McNabb were a senior today, and let's even say Deleone was still here, would we be in his Top 20? Doubtful.

 

[Millhouse]

Is that scoring though or just total offense?

If total offense, I'd be curious where we were in scoring. We had some stinkers in all those years for sure (we know it as well as anyone) but it also seemed like we scored a lot of points.

It's even harder now because we don't have the built in recruiting advantages, like no competition in the area, and we recruited athletic QBs that other schools wanted to convert. If Donovan McNabb were a senior today, and let's even say Deleone was still here, would we be in his Top 20? Doubtful.

Just yards. I figure over 8 years, it works out about the same

 

[Czar]

Still curious.

How old are you?

How long have you been watching college football?

I'm not answering that because it doesn't have a god damn thing to do with this debate whatsoever.

 

[SWC75]

The BYU system has resulted in limited success against fairly mediocre competition. The lack of balance in such a system probably explains why no major program uses it and why BYU is and has been over the years a decent but not great program.

Five head coaches and many, many offensive coordinators at SU, including Tom Coughlin, apparently have not seen the appropriateness of a throw all the time system in the Dome for the past 30 years - it may also be that our recruiting region does not lend itself to the development of the players you identified - throwing the ball in the NE to that extent at the HS level is probably not feasible.

In one post you list all the famous quarterbacks and receivers we have had and in another you say:
"... it may also be that our recruiting region does not lend itself to the development of the players you identified - throwing the ball in the NE to that extent at the HS level is probably not feasible."

 

[OrangePA]

I'm not answering that because it doesn't have a god damn thing to do with this debate whatsoever.

Telling.

 

[OrangePA]

In one post you list all the famous quarterbacks and receivers we have had and in another you say:
"... it may also be that our recruiting region does not lend itself to the development of the players you identified - throwing the ball in the NE to that extent at the HS level is probably not feasible."

Right.

I didn't list guys like Jim McMahon, Steve Sarkasian, Ty Detmer, Koy Detmer, who were basically traditional drop back passers.

I listed guys who were dual threat QBs - whose legs helped them succeed. I was very satisfied with the play of Donnie, Todd, Marvin, Donovan and Kevin Mason. And I think the dual threat QB is probably the way to go for SU. It has worked with teams like Florida, Texas, Auburn et al.

There are drop back passers in the NE, clearly, but probably not as many HS offenses in the NE that play a pro-style when compared to the west coast.

I'm pretty sure that you've asked the question many times before, but for our benefit this year, please ask Coach Marrone this week why he doesn't run the BYU offense.

 

[SmilinBob]

I want a qb that can do everything pass, run and intelligent. I'm not sure there's a coach in the nation that would rather have a stiff qb over an athletic one if everything else is even. From there, the HC has to determine what he can live with or live without, pluses and minuses and along those lines I want a mix of qb's on the bench as well, the better passer and the athletic type qb's but again, only if you don't the the 3 attributes I mentioned.

 

[SWC75]

Right.

I didn't list guys like Jim McMahon, Steve Sarkasian, Ty Detmer, Koy Detmer, who were basically traditional drop back passers.

I listed guys who were dual threat QBs - whose legs helped them succeed. I was very satisfied with the play of Donnie, Todd, Marvin, Donovan and Kevin Mason. And I think the dual threat QB is probably the way to go for SU. It has worked with teams like Florida, Texas, Auburn et al.

There are drop back passers in the NE, clearly, but probably not as many HS offenses in the NE that play a pro-style when compared to the west coast.

I'm pretty sure that you've asked the question many times before, but for our benefit this year, please ask Coach Marrone this week why he doesn't run the BYU offense.

I've already submitted my question which is about something else. That doesn't prevent you from submitting a question:

http://www.suathletics.com/sb_output.aspx?form=4

To get back to the subject our current passer is clearly more of a drop back passer and an offense like the BYU offense would work just fine with this personnel. And Northeastern teams have had plenty of drop-back passers over the years. And if we ran a BYU-type offense we would be a national recruiter for the passing game.

 

[OrangePA]

I have no interest in asking the question because I don't think your position is correct.

Don't you find it odd though that a lay fan from North Syracuse such as yourself, whom I gather has never coached college football, finds the solution so easy while Doug Marrone - or any other SU offensive coach since the Dome was built - can't figure it out?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I have no interest in asking the question because I don't think your position is correct.

Don't you find it odd though that a lay fan from North Syracuse such as yourself, whom I gather has never coached college football, finds the solution so easy while Doug Marrone - or any other SU offensive coach since the Dome was built - can't figure it out?

Great Gatsby, man! We're not talking about physicists, we're talking about football coaches. I absolutely believe that a lay fan from North Syracuse could find the solution so easy while a football coach would not.

 

[OrangePA]

Clearly you feel that way.

You have already stated that Marrone is a meathead.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Clearly you feel that way.

You have already stated that Marrone is a meathead.

There have been some decisions he has made that have lead me to believe he can be a meathead, and I have stated such, yes.

 

[Czar]

Guys, OrangePA is clearly right no matter what and we're all wrong, because he's an expert. Pack it up guys, nothing to say here.

 

[SWC75]

I have no interest in asking the question because I don't think your position is correct.

Don't you find it odd though that a lay fan from North Syracuse such as yourself, whom I gather has never coached college football, finds the solution so easy while Doug Marrone - or any other SU offensive coach since the Dome was built - can't figure it out?

From time to time someone cites the expertese of the coach as a response to someone's point. But if we took that to it's logical extension, this board would serve no purpose. It's an outlet for the opinions of the fans, not a cheering section for the coach. I have alot of respect for Marrone but I think when you have a passer and receivers like the ones we have and two smallish but quick running backs, trying to "establish the run" to set up the pass rather than using the pass to open things up for the run is folly. That opinion may be incorrect but it's the only one I've got.

 

[rrlbees]

To get back to the subject our current passer is clearly more of a drop back passer.

I don't see Nassib as a typical drop back passer. He rarely drops back and steps up into the pocket or moves around in the pocket by slipping the rush. While he is not an option type QB, he seems to roll out a lot to make the pass.

 

[44PRIDE]

Holy schweddy balls Batman...

The thread that just wont die.