Meathead Football

[CousCuse]

Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it so. Although maybe you're right about dominant, but we can be damn good and have been in the past. And I realize it's not 1970 anymore and we aren't trotting out the wishbone. Nobody said not to use misdirection, etc. Fact is the current offense is broken and puts the defense back on the field way too quickly way too often. Both times we have tried to move to fast high scoring offense it hasn't worked, at least not yet. If you look at the past 18 years(9 years of WCO/AirRaid, 9 years of more traditional ball control), then you see that we've been to 1 bowl game in 9 years of WCO/AirRaid and 4 bowls in 9 years using what we would consider more traditional NE style football. That's just over 10% vs almost 50%.

Maybe we haven't had the right WCO/AirRaid coach yet. That's possible. But the fact's you stated are real.

 

[TheCusian]

Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it so. Although maybe you're right about dominant, but we can be damn good and have been in the past. And I realize it's not 1970 anymore and we aren't trotting out the wishbone. Nobody said not to use misdirection, etc. Fact is the current offense is broken and puts the defense back on the field way too quickly way too often. Both times we have tried to move to fast high scoring offense it hasn't worked, at least not yet. If you look at the past 18 years(9 years of WCO/AirRaid, 9 years of more traditional ball control), then you see that we've been to 1 bowl game in 9 years of WCO/AirRaid and 4 bowls in 9 years using what we would consider more traditional NE style football. That's just over 10% vs almost 50%.

Yes! Stats! Here's some for you. (a "0" schedule is average in all of CFB)

HC	Bowl Wins	Average Strength of Schedule	Win %
Marrone	2	0.54	.500
Shafer	1	3.26	.378
Babers	1	3.41	.421

Maybe it's less system and more a weak Big East vs a pretty good ACC?

EDIT: It's always been suspicious to me that Marrone hightailed it out of here the season before joining the ACC. I know, I know - when the NFL comes calling, you go. But I think his time here is a bit of a mirage based on poor competition.

 

[Pyle]

Yes! Stats! Here's some for you. (a "0" schedule is average in all of CFB)

HC	Bowl Wins	Average Strength of Schedule	Win %
Marrone	2	0.54	.500
Shafer	1	3.26	.378
Babers	1	3.41	.421

Maybe it's less system and more a weak Big East vs a pretty good ACC?

EDIT: It's always been suspicious to me that Marrone hightailed it out of here the season before joining the ACC. I know, I know - when the NFL comes calling, you go. But I think his time here is a bit of a mirage based on poor competition.

Maybe and maybe not. Obviously we don't have all the answers. I just know when I look at the overall body of work between the two systems, one has medium success and one has had very limited success (8/9 losing seasons). That being said, this narrative some try to push around here of needing an offense suited to the dome is either completely wrong, or their idea of what type of offense should actually be run in the dome is wrong. Let me be clear that I mean our dome, the one we are able to recruit kids to play inside of.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it so. Although maybe you're right about dominant, but we can be damn good and have been in the past. And I realize it's not 1970 anymore and we aren't trotting out the wishbone. Nobody said not to use misdirection, etc. Fact is the current offense is broken and puts the defense back on the field way too quickly way too often. Both times we have tried to move to fast high scoring offense it hasn't worked, at least not yet. If you look at the past 18 years(9 years of WCO/AirRaid, 9 years of more traditional ball control), then you see that we've been to 1 bowl game in 9 years of WCO/AirRaid and 4 bowls in 9 years using what we would consider more traditional NE style football. That's just over 10% vs almost 50%.

Your definitions are really wonky.

2012 Marrone went to a hurry up and Nassib threw the ball more than anyone had in program history.

 

[Orangefizz]

I brought my sunglasses so throw as much shade as you want. Both times we have tried an offense 'suited to the dome'(WCO, Air Raid) it has not worked out well for us. The concept is spot on, we have the perfect environment...inside. What about outside? Can we get the speedsters to come up North and play for us? Doesn't seem like it. As a matter of fact we've actually seen our worst offensive outputs from these systems.

We play our best football when forget about the stupid Dome 'advantage' and recruit the blue collar NE and mid-west kids we have in the past. I see people saying we can't recruit here. Delone Carter came here and was a stud. When we weren't using gimmicky offenses we got guys like Pugh and Tiller on the line. It works for Pitt, it works for BC and it has worked for us. You want to be consistently good? Then we need to run an offense we can consistently recruit for in CNY. Defense and ball control is a proven formula. Lightning fast 3 and outs is not.

I have been beating that drum for quite some time. But every time I mention a ball controlled, running offense I get shut down that’s it stylistically not suitable for the inside dome fast playing surface. All I want are points and wins. 3 and out result in no points abs kills our defense. I don’t care if we run the wishbone offense as long as it can provide consistent winning teams. For me it’s Paul Johnson or Jeff Monken, winning coaches and leading experts at the triple option.

 

[Cusefan69]

Pyle brings up one fair point and that is the offense that is being run at Syracuse puts tremendous pressure on our defense week in and week out. Now that could be less “offense type” and more play calls and execution but the defense is getting the short end of the stick with the offense unable to sustain drives longer than 2 minutes. Until Babers has the personnel on offense to run his scheme how he wants, I would not mind seeing the execution slow down, run the play clock and be more deliberate be run or pass.

 

[TheCusian]

Pyle brings up one fair point and that is the offense that is being run at Syracuse puts tremendous pressure on our defense week in and week out. Now that could be less “offense type” and more play calls and execution but the defense is getting the short end of the stick with the offense unable to sustain drives longer than 2 minutes. Until Babers has the personnel on offense to run his scheme how he wants, I would not mind seeing the execution slow down, run the play clock and be more deliberate be run or pass.

That's what we've been doing this year.

 

[Cusefan69]

That's what we've been doing this year.

Not completely...it was trying to go fast with TD. It slowed some with Rex. Strangely it felt like it picked up some with Jacobian.

 

[MSOrange]

I have been beating that drum for quite some time. But every time I mention a ball controlled, running offensive I get shut down that’s it stylistically not suitable for the inside dome fast playing surface. All I want are points and wins. 3 and out result in no points abs kills our defense. I don’t care if we run the wishbone offense as long as it can provide consistent winning teams. For me it’s Paul Johnson or Todd Monken, winning coaches and leading experts at the triple option.

I'm actually not opposed to a different style. I also just want to win at this point regardless of what it looks like. My parents two alma maters both run different style offenses than Syracuse to more success. Granted one is in the Mountain West, so the competition level is different, but they still do pretty well. I'm not as excited about Paul Johnson as you are. He's a bit older than I'd prefer. Seems like it would take a few years to turn over the roster to fit his style and then he'd be even older. But Jeff Monken is a good coach (I assume you are referring to Jeff, the Army coach)

 

[Orangefizz]

Here let me define gimmick: An offense with no playbook that takes 2.5 years to learn with only 5 base plays with multiple variations that the QB has to correctly read pre-snap in order to work. If you don't like gimmick, fine, pick another word, 'unique'?

Yeah I brought up Gerg. He treid to force an offense that his personnel wasn't capable of running...No I don't think we are Gerg level bad but we also aren't successful and we're doing the same thing. When Gerg got fired everyone said you can't do that here, you have to recruit the blue bloods and play NE football. Ss we got Marrone and he was successful, and then we had Shafer and he wasn't so everyone said we needed an offense 'suited' to the Dome again. It's BS.

I like your comparison of coaches and offensive styles. But why don’t you go back a little further to Coach Mac and Coach P? When we had a competent dual threat quarterback, those offenses were dynamic, the dome was packed, and we won consistently.

 

[money3189]

It is NOT the System!!! Its a lot of other things that is causing us to be unsuccessful. The scheme has a lot of power elements to it. Its primarily a gap scheme. The tempo hurts our defenses like I said. It just seems like all the discussions are focused on Power football, which we do have in this system.

 

[CousCuse]

It is NOT the System!!! Its a lot of other things that is causing us to be unsuccessful. The scheme has a lot of power elements to it. Its primarily a gap scheme.

Do you have confidence that Gilbert can run these scheme at a high efficiency in the ACC, when he has things in place?

 

[TheCusian]

Maybe and maybe not. Obviously we don't have all the answers. I just know when I look at the overall body of work between the two systems, one has medium success and one has had very limited success (8/9 losing seasons). That being said, this narrative some try to push around here of needing an offense suited to the dome is either completely wrong, or their idea of what type of offense should actually be run in the dome is wrong. Let me be clear that I mean our dome, the one we are able to recruit kids to play inside of.

I don't think the conclusion I'd derive from that chart is that one has very limited success or look at just winning records. You could make the case that Dino would have had the same or better success if he'd had the soft Big East schedule that Marrone had.

I also don't think I'd come to the conclusion that "an offense suited to the dome is wrong" based on that info. One more chart for you:

HC	Avg SOS	Avg Yards per Play	Scoring Average	Top 25 Wins
Marrone	0.54	5.36	24.4	2
Shafer	3.26	5.04	22.3	0
Babers	3.41	5.21	27.98	3

 

[Orangefizz]

I'm actually not opposed to a different style. I also just want to win at this point regardless of what it looks like. My parents two alma maters both run different style offenses than Syracuse to more success. Granted one is in the Mountain West, so the competition level is different, but they still do pretty well. I'm not as excited about Paul Johnson as you are. He's a bit older than I'd prefer. Seems like it would take a few years to turn over the roster to fit his style and then he'd be even older. But Jeff Monken is a good coach (I assume you are referring to Jeff, the Army coach)

Triple option with a competent coaching staff - dual threat QB, Hough, Tucker, Jordan, Taj, Queeley, Benson and an OL of Bergeron, Bleich, Ilaoa, Vet, Davis is what I envision.

 

[money3189]

Do you have confidence that Gilbert can run these scheme at a high efficiency in the ACC, when he has things in place?

If you stay healthy and have serviceable players any scheme can be productive. The problem is teams are scoring a lot of points. Offensive coaches are getting smarter. All the new rules allows them to design plays that put them in the advantage. Its hard to keep up. You better have a scheme in place that allows you to do the same or you better play lights out defense, and that's hard to do.

 

[TheCusian]

Not completely...it was trying to go fast with TD. It slowed some with Rex. Strangely it felt like it picked up some with Jacobian.

I'm on a roll

year	plays per game on average	yards per play
2020	60	4.4
2019	75.75	5.21
2018	81.77	5.68
2017	85.58	5.33
2016	80.92	5.45

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I'm on a roll

year	plays per game on average	yards per play
2020	60	4.4
2019	75.75	5.21
2018	81.77	5.68
2017	85.58	5.33
2016	80.92	5.45

That chart is painful.

 

[FloridaFan]

that graph doesn’t show speed. That shows me we can’t get first downs. What’s the time between snaps

 

[TheCusian]

That chart is painful.

Yeah. All not great - last two years ungood

 

[SoBristol]

It is NOT the System!!! Its a lot of other things that is causing us to be unsuccessful. The scheme has a lot of power elements to it. Its primarily a gap scheme. The tempo hurts our defenses like I said. It just seems like all the discussions are focused on Power football, which we do have in this system.

Actually, there aren’t a “lot of power elements” in a system that uses 4 WRs in a spread, a pro style QB who does not run, and a single back. Especially not if you have a backfield of Devito and Jordan, as we rolled out in September.

 

[Millhouse]

I would argue that the reason behind a significant number of our program's issues is because we have not ever, in fact, actually committed to taking advantage of the Dome environment by tailoring our style of play to it, and the fact that you point to Gerg's attempt at a WCO as a failure doing so shows just how pathetic and clownish your justification for meathead football truly is.

Meatheads can make 90000 stupid punts in a row and when they miss one fourth down its all AHA THIS DOESN'T WORK

Same with a modern offense.

 

[Millhouse]

I brought my sunglasses so throw as much shade as you want. Both times we have tried an offense 'suited to the dome'(WCO, Air Raid) it has not worked out well for us. The concept is spot on, we have the perfect environment...inside. What about outside? Can we get the speedsters to come up North and play for us? Doesn't seem like it. As a matter of fact we've actually seen our worst offensive outputs from these systems.

We play our best football when forget about the stupid Dome 'advantage' and recruit the blue collar NE and mid-west kids we have in the past. I see people saying we can't recruit here. Delone Carter came here and was a stud. When we weren't using gimmicky offenses we got guys like Pugh and Tiller on the line. It works for Pitt, it works for BC and it has worked for us. You want to be consistently good? Then we need to run an offense we can consistently recruit for in CNY. Defense and ball control is a proven formula. Lightning fast 3 and outs is not.

Curious if you happen to be a giants fan

 

[Cusefan69]

I'm on a roll

year	plays per game on average	yards per play
2020	60	4.4
2019	75.75	5.21
2018	81.77	5.68
2017	85.58	5.33
2016	80.92	5.45

The thing with data is you can read it differently. That data could suggest our pace is slowing down. It could also suggest we have allot of 3 and outs. Does the data set you are harvesting from denote how many possessions on offense they have a game?

 

[CousCuse]

If you stay healthy and have serviceable players any scheme can be productive. The problem is teams are scoring a lot of points. Offensive coaches are getting smarter. All the new rules allows them to design plays that put them in the advantage. Its hard to keep up. You better have a scheme in place that allows you to do the same or you better play lights out defense, and that's hard to do.

I was wondering what your opinion of Gilbert is. He is the guy that is going to make the O work or not work. I like the 2 QB's he brought in.

 

[orangepassion]

I'm on a roll

year	plays per game on average	yards per play
2020	60	4.4
2019	75.75	5.21
2018	81.77	5.68
2017	85.58	5.33
2016	80.92	5.45

After last year, I couldn't believe our offense could be worse. Guess I was wrong.