Musings on the Defense

[MiniCuse]

Here, the villagers have joined together to drive Gergenstein off the Hill.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Wrong

Great analysis thanks. I have changed my mind.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

We had a lot more talent on defense in 2009 than we do now, IMO. That is why I say, pound for pound and considering the new ACC conference affiliation, this rebuild is every bit as big as Marrone's the issue though is our biggest problems were on offense then, now it's defense.

 

[GoCuse14]

Great analysis thanks. I have changed my mind.

all you did was make a statement...as did I. where was your analysis?

I think Clark, Cordy, Slayton, Winfield...and potentially Zaire at outside linebacker start on that defense. There was some talent there for sure.

 

[RF2044]

Posted this in another thread; didn't want itto get lost in the noise.

What's Houston ranked right now? 6th. Anyone take a look at what their recruiting classes looked like the past several years? 2015: 92nd. 2014: 76th. 2013: 56th.

This year: 35th.

The recruiting ratings of their starting front 7:
Jerard Carter: 2 star
Ed Oliver: 5 star
Cameron Malveaux: 2 star

LBs:
Tyus Bowser: 3 star
Matthew Adams: 3 star
Steven Taylor: 2 star
D'Juan Hines: 2 star

Most of them are 3+ years into the program. Only one, Ed Oliver, is an underclassman (and highly rated).

If anyone wants to read up on their bios, here's the link: UHCOUGARS.com :: University of Houston Official Athletic Site :: Football

The point of this post? 1st, to defend these kids. S T with the "lack of talent" crap. Most of our guys are 1-2 years into SU, and they've already have had to deal with 2 coaching staffs, two totally differing defensive schemes, and lots of injuries. Our kids, coming out of high school, pretty much match what Houston's got, and, as we can all see, Houston doesn't suck. 2nd. Implementing a new D and a new O is traumatic. Sht's gonna happen. They're ALL learning (including the staff). So, for those btching about how much we suck, cut them some goddamn slack. It's going to be a train wreck, interspersed with flashes of what this team will become by 2018. BE PATIENT and a bit more understanding of what's happened, and what's going on with these boys.

bcubs, I get where you're coming from, and I commend you for circling the wagons--you've got skin in the game like no others who post here.

But while I agree with about 50% of your post [it will take time, round peg / square hole, new systems, patience is required, etc.], I just can't agree with your take about he lack of talent. Sorry--but it is clearly evident that at many positional units, our kids are too small, too slow, or too inexperienced. Especially compared to the teams we've played the past two weeks.

Please note, I'm not suggesting that the entire team needs to be rebuilt like that post insinuated after Saturday's game, or that the team lacks any talent. In fact, there are actually a couple of positional units where the talent is more than adequate. The problem is, most of those units are on offense [QB, WR, RB?]. DT is the lone unit on defense where this is the case--again, compared to the teams we've been playing. We have significant gaps at DE, LB, CB, and S. And the depth [or lack thereof] is already hurting us and we're only in week 3.

All of which points to a glaring lack of talent on the squad. It doesn't mean that there isn't ANY talent, or that the coaching staff can't cobble together wins with the resources on hand, just that it is going to be harder to do so in year 1. And to categorize it any other way isn't particularly honest, given the roster composition.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

all you did was make a statement...as did I. where was your analysis?

I think Clark, Cordy, Slayton, Winfield...and potentially Zaire at outside linebacker start on that defense. There was some talent there for sure.

Franklin isn't very good and certainly doesn't have the quickness to play OLB. The better argument is Bennett or Thomas over EJ Carter. But in either case I would still take Carter.

Winfield is a poor tackler and isn't good in run support. His strength is as a cover guy. He isn't as good as Merkerson who is your cover corner. If you want 2 cover corners then you can take Winfield. I rather take Kevyn Scott though to help with run support.

Cordy wouldn't start over Suter. Heck I think Ellison might be better than Cordy.

Clark IMO wouldn't start over Lewis. He has potential but he is only a true soph. He might end up being very good in time but right now he isn't there.

Slayton I would probably take over Marinovich.

So there we have 1 guy out of 11.

 

[cuse309]

It's a funny thing. Talent seems to be hindsight. When Texas or Florida have losing records, nobody says the team has no talent. They say they didn't play well because of A,B, or C. If those same teams from Florida or Texas or any other underachieving school, went 12-0, people would say how talented those teams are.
I'm not sure our defense has a lack of talent. People were praising Franklin, Clark, Bennett under Shafers defense. Did those players suddenly become untalented? Or is it, that they are learning a new system (this is big boy football, not Madden, or H.S. football...switching defenses is a huge adjustment), aren't deep yet, on the field a lot, playing out of position due to need, very young, etc. etc. etc. Is Daivon Ellison untalented after winning ACC defensive back of the week this week?

 

[IthacaBarrel]

2009, Jones brothers, Merk, Hogue, Smith, Perk, Lewis, Tribbey, Suter, Anderson, Thomas as a frosh, Marinovich... Looks like more talent to me

 

[HRE Otto IV]

2009, Jones brothers, Merk, Hogue, Smith, Perk, Lewis, Tribbey, Suter, Anderson, Thomas as a frosh, Marinovich... Looks like more talent to me

Starters were

DE: Chandler, Marinovich
DT: Art, Lewis
LB: Smith, Hogue, Carter
CB: Merkerson, then ? was mixture of Kevyn Scott, Nico Scott, Phil Thomas
SS: Suter
FS: Homes

On the bench we had:

DE: Kimmel
DT: Tribbey, Perkins
LB: Gillum, Stenclik
SS: Shamarko
FS: McKinnon

 

[RF2044]

It's a funny thing. Talent seems to be hindsight. When Texas or Florida have losing records, nobody says the team has no talent. They say they didn't play well because of A,B, or C. If those same teams from Florida or Texas or any other underachieving school, went 12-0, people would say how talented those teams are.
I'm not sure our defense has a lack of talent. People were praising Franklin, Clark, Bennett under Shafers defense. Did those players suddenly become untalented? Or is it, that they are learning a new system (this is big boy football, not Madden, or H.S. football...switching defenses is a huge adjustment), aren't deep yet, on the field a lot, playing out of position due to need, very young, etc. etc. etc. Is Daivon Ellison untalented after winning ACC defensive back of the week this week?

You're not sure? Have you seen the size disparity of our LB corps / secondary? Do you not see the lack of depth, speed, and experience at several positional units?

Your argument about Ellison is a straw man. The issue with Ellison--like Cordy--is that he is undersized. In fact, he'd be small for a corner, let alone a strong safety. Yet, for us that's where he plays.

Having to assimilate a new system is undoubtedly also slowing down how the team is playing on defense, no question -- which shows that the issue is multi-dimensional, and that there isn't one magic bullet that will solve everything.

But honestly, I'm at a bit of loss as to how anybody could look at our defensive raw materials and not conclude that there is a lack of talent [however anyone chooses to define what that means] on the defensive side of the ball, aside from DT. Especially compared to the two teams we just got throttled by in consecutive weeks.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Starters were

DE: Chandler, Marinovich
DT: Art, Lewis
LB: Smith, Hogue, Carter
CB: Merkerson, then ? was mixture of Kevyn Scott, Nico Scott, Phil Thomas
SS: Suter
FS: Homes

On the bench we had:

DE: Kimmel
DT: Tribbey, Perkins
LB: Gillum, Stenclik
SS: Shamarko
FS: McKinnon

3 NFL draft picks there in the starting line up. I think you are right I don't see anyone that could be replaced by what we have now, you could debate Lewis and Slayton, that would be it. Lewis was pretty good though too, GROB wasn't a bad recruiter 1-10, it was the back end of the classes where he fell off a cliff. O Line was tough too

 

[sufandu]

Not talking production, talking talent. Who from this team would you start over a 2009 D player? Maybe Slayton. Maybe Thomas. That is it. When the 2009 team had at least 9 position players (maybe all 11) that are better than the 2016 team, you have a talent issue.

I'm not saying it didn't have more talent just that you're overstating how much more. Some of that was Marrone being perceptive enough to know a couple guys were better on D than O and most of the the best players on that defense were veterans.

You can't completely separate production from talent either. Smith and Hogue were able to cover for their lack of experience by playing downhill much of the time in Shafer's defense. How would they have looked trying to cover guys downfield while playing more of a read and react style?

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I'm not saying it didn't have more talent just that you're overstating how much more. Some of that was Marrone being perceptive enough to know a couple guys were better on D than O and most of the the best players on that defense were veterans.

You can't completely separate production from talent either. Smith and Hogue were able to cover for their lack of experience by playing downhill much of the time in Shafer's defense. How would they have looked trying to cover guys downfield while playing more of a read and react style?

Hogue was probably athletic enough to do anything really.

 

[phil77]

Plus you also have to compare our talent to the league we played in. That 2009 team had top end big east talent. The 2016 while it has some talented pieces is still in the bottom of the league in terms of overall group talent. We still have Big East type players at some positions trying to compete against ACC talent.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Plus you also have to compare our talent to the league we played in. That 2009 team had top end big east talent. The 2016 while it has some talented pieces is still in the bottom of the league in terms of overall group talent. We still have Big East type players at some positions trying to compete against ACC talent.

Just goes to show how poorly Shafer recruited at many spots, really bad. GROB loaded up with better athletes

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I'm not saying it didn't have more talent just that you're overstating how much more. Some of that was Marrone being perceptive enough to know a couple guys were better on D than O and most of the the best players on that defense were veterans.

You can't completely separate production from talent either. Smith and Hogue were able to cover for their lack of experience by playing downhill much of the time in Shafer's defense. How would they have looked trying to cover guys downfield while playing more of a read and react style?

See 2010 where we played coverage the whole year.

 

[phil77]

Just goes to show how poorly Shafer recruited at many spots, really bad. GROB loaded up with better athletes

I do agree that overall Shafer didn't recruit well. I think he had a couple of nice hits but overall his recruiting was a problem.

 

[cuse309]

You're not sure? Have you seen the size disparity of our LB corps / secondary? Do you not see the lack of depth, speed, and experience at several positional units?

Your argument about Ellison is a straw man. The issue with Ellison--like Cordy--is that he is undersized. In fact, he'd be small for a corner, let alone a strong safety. Yet, for us that's where he plays.

Having to assimilate a new system is undoubtedly also slowing down how the team is playing on defense, no question -- which shows that the issue is multi-dimensional, and that there isn't one magic bullet that will solve everything.

But honestly, I'm at a bit of loss as to how anybody could look at our defensive raw materials and not conclude that there is a lack of talent [however anyone chooses to define what that means] on the defensive side of the ball, aside from DT. Especially compared to the two teams we just got throttled by in consecutive weeks.

Lack of talent to compete for a N.C...yes. Lack of talent to field a competitive top 25 program...I don't think so. There have been a lot of teams with far less talent (according to recruiting sites) that finish in the top 25 or even play in New Years bowl games.

Lack of experience as you pointed out, does not equate to a lack of talent. Lack of depth is something that will be fixed with continued recruiting. Being undersized is nothing new for us. You can't point at a measurable like size and speed, and automatically say that due to them being shorter and slower, that they aren't talented. We've had plenty of "undersized" guys drafted, and play in the NFL. I don't think of a players 40 time, or height and weight when I think of talent. I think of football I.Q., and right now, it's unfair to assume any of these kids on defense aren't smart/talented enough to pick up the Tampa 2. They have played 3 games in it against 2 really good offenses. Keep in mind, these kids were recruited for Shafers attacking, aggressive, balls to the wall, hit like a freight train defense. Height for db's wasn't as much of a priority. Now these undersized kids are being asked to forget what is in their nature, and what they were taught, and play a much more passive defense.
We all knew this was the case. We all new that defense would be a tremendous challenge this year. All that is playing out, is what we expected.

Undersized for the T2...yes (that will change)
Unfamiliar with the T2...yes (that is currently changing)
Untalented...no

 

[RF2044]

Lack of talent to compete for a N.C...yes. Lack of talent to field a competitive top 25 program...I don't think so. There have been a lot of teams with far less talent (according to recruiting sites) that finish in the top 25 or even play in New Years bowl games.

Lack of experience as you pointed out, does not equate to a lack of talent. Lack of depth is something that will be fixed with continued recruiting. Being undersized is nothing new for us. You can't point at a measurable like size and speed, and automatically say that due to them being shorter and slower, that they aren't talented. We've had plenty of "undersized" guys drafted, and play in the NFL. I don't think of a players 40 time, or height and weight when I think of talent. I think of football I.Q., and right now, it's unfair to assume any of these kids on defense aren't smart/talented enough to pick up the Tampa 2. They have played 3 games in it against 2 really good offenses. Keep in mind, these kids were recruited for Shafers attacking, aggressive, balls to the wall, hit like a freight train defense. Height for db's wasn't as much of a priority. Now these undersized kids are being asked to forget what is in their nature, and what they were taught, and play a much more passive defense.
We all knew this was the case. We all new that defense would be a tremendous challenge this year. All that is playing out, is what we expected.

Undersized for the T2...yes (that will change)
Unfamiliar with the T2...yes (that is currently changing)
Untalented...no

Honestly, I think you're splitting hairs. Right now, we are deficient at the following positional units, for any of a variety of reasons:

OL, TE, DE, LB, CB, and S

I completely understand that the kids on the current roster were recruited for another system, that required them to do different things. Well, that's in the rear view mirror--and for the current system, many of the incumbents aren't great fits.

You're right, many of us were worried that we were going to struggle massively on defense for a second consecutive year. And that in large part that was attributable to growing pains for the new system, but also a lack of talent on that side of the ball, save for at DT.

Need proof? Consider the players we have, and then consider that it wouldn't matter WHAT system we played with the personnel on hand this year--the defense wouldn't be able to overcome having 4 of the 6 DEs on the roster never having played a snap and being true frosh, both of our safeties being undersized, the horrendous depth at CB, and having players that are much smaller than their counterparts at LB, CB, and S. That clearly demonstrates that the issue comes down to the personnel [i.e., talent] is the main problem on that side of the ball.

I don't know where you're interpreting "aren't smart enough to pick up the Tampa 2" from me--I think they're doing the best they can, with limited capabilities at several positional units. And being undersized doesn't help matters. But there is no way this defense is comparable to what it would take to field at top 25 caliber team--sorry, but that isn't even remotely close to being true. And when we're a top 25 team in two years, everyone will look back and see the noticeable difference.

Doesn't mean that they can't be more competitive against teams that suck offensively like UConn, bc, wake, etc. But top 25 with the personnel on hand defensively? C'mon--you can't honestly believe that.

 

[CuseLegacy]

Not talking production, talking talent. Who from this team would you start over a 2009 D player? Maybe Slayton. Maybe Thomas. That is it. When the 2009 team had at least 9 position players (maybe all 11) that are better than the 2016 team, you have a talent issue.

You mean that 2009 year, with all that talent, that we had a four win season beating Northwestern, Maine, Akron and Rutgers.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

You mean that 2009 year, with all that talent, that we had a four win season beating Northwestern, Maine, Akron and Rutgers.

That was my point. It wasn't the most talented D in the world yet it still had a lot more talent than the D we currently have. So how can we "not lack talent" if we aren't as talented as a D that went 4-8?

 

[IthacaBarrel]

You mean that 2009 year, with all that talent, that we had a four win season beating Northwestern, Maine, Akron and Rutgers.

Yes the team with the 19th rated defense in the country and one of the worst offenses.. The D did their part, that was the year we had bubble boy, I think amrrone would have fired him 6 games in if he could have

 

[CuseLegacy]

That was my point. It wasn't the most talented D in the world yet it still had a lot more talent than the D we currently have. So how can we "not lack talent" if we aren't as talented as a D that went 4-8?

I don't agree with your point. I think it is premature to decide that this team is less talented until the season is over and all the games are played.

 

[sufandu]

I don't like this excuse, we played who was on the schedule. We could take this back and forth even further, marrone didn't have any facility upgrades, see what I did there?

It's not an excuse it's a legitimate factor. You don't think Colgate looks better against FCS teams than they did against us? Discounting SOS is just lazy.

 

[sufandu]

Hogue was probably athletic enough to do anything really.

Sure. But would he have grasped things mentally? Maybe. But he didn't have to.