Musings on the Defense

[SWC75]

Some of you guys need to take a step back from the ledge. Seriously. Week three is in the books. Week three in a new defense. Defense is generally easier to pick up than offense. Give the kids a break! HCDB believes the kids on the field are better options than the ones not on the field, and, yes some are in due to injuries but that is part of the game. Get over it.

The kids lost to a top five team that has bumped a top five team, a preseason favorite for the title game! The played a very good FCS team and won, in their first game in the new system! The same defense many on here are decrying held Louisville equally as good as did FSU, the preseason pic for the NC game!

Many complain about the recruiting. There are fair points, there are less than fair points, regardless, it is time to move on. HCDB will get his players in time. We have the players we have and HCDB is using as he best sees fit. Complaining about Shafer and his recruiting does no one any bit of good. You have made a point, move on! HCDB wants his version of the Tampa 2 and the kids we have were not recruited for the Tampa 2, you made your point, Move On! We don't have the talent that Alabama, Texas, FSU, Louisville, tOSU, Michigan, ND, OU have; you made your point, MOVE ON!

Every kid on this team chose to play for Syracuse. You should be thankful they did! Every kid has bought into HCDB's system, you should be thankful. Every kid is showing improvement, you should be thankful.

We play UConn Saturday and several on here believe we will be crushed, expecting 20-40 point loss. OK, I may have exaggerated, but get over yourselves. UConn is not to be mistaken with a world beater. Give it up already. Whether Syracuse wins or loses, the big picture is that HCDB has these kids learning a new system and they are improving. That said, I expect a win. It may not be pretty, but anyone that wants to favorably compare what UConn has played versus what Syracuse has played is really messed up! Colgate could be 3-0 with the UCOnn slate, I have little doubt Syracuse would be 3-0 against UConn's slate.

Can Syracuse lose? Yes, they could. The Vegas line is set to get betting action so the house does not lose, they needed to entice Syracuse bettors to put down money, so what! Vegas changes the line as necessary to get bets, not because they really believe Syracuse will win or lose, to entice gamblers to place money on the game, nothing more.

Tearing down kids because you are mad at Shafer or because you believe HCDB sold you a bill of goods makes no sense. You would be better off stating your frustrations and them moving on and building up the team. That is what real coaches do. That is what leaders do. That is what parents do. That is what adults do. I realize that as fans we sometimes lose sight of the fact that we are adults, parents, leaders, etc., but when we do, we still have an obligation to regain that sight.

Please stop complaining about these kids, they are playing their hearts out while learning a new system for which they were not directly recruited. I will take every kid in Orange right now over any moron that was lured to PedState. I would take any of these kids over a Rutgers player, recruited via phony comments about other schools. These kids chose to play for the school I could only dream of attending. Syracuse will not pull their scholarships to draw in a better recruit (can you say anyone team in the SEC?), Syracuse keeps its word to the players.

Sorry for being long winded and preachy. Stepping of my soap box.

Again, i haven't read anybody "tearing down the kids". Saying we don't have the talent level of these last two teams who blew us out and saying we need to recruit better players is dealing with reality, not "tearing down the kids".

I also haven't ready anywhere that UCONN will "crush" us. It should be noted they were the only team to beat Houston last year. That means we can't take them for granted, not that they will "crush" us.

Nor has anyone said they wish we had the guys who went to Ped State.

 

[bcubs9497]

I thought Dino was interesting in his presser this week. He kind of tread the normal ground with the offense (it takes a while for it to click, but when it does...) but he included the defense in that same category. I wonder if he's taking about the gap between reading and reacting. Seems like we're late a lot. Some of that is speed (esp vs FL athletes), but I wonder if they are playing tentative esp in the LB and secondary.

Think a lot of the reason for what's been happening is everyone trying to figure out who does what, and when. And it probably differs for each game, based on whatever offense the opposing team runs. Their collective epiphany won't occur for some time, I suspect. Not until everyone becomes comfortable.

 

[Shrmdougluvr]

I thought Dino was interesting in his presser this week. He kind of tread the normal ground with the offense (it takes a while for it to click, but when it does...) but he included the defense in that same category. I wonder if he's taking about the gap between reading and reacting. Seems like we're late a lot. Some of that is speed (esp vs FL athletes), but I wonder if they are playing tentative esp in the LB and secondary.

I think this is really it. I think the "not fast enough" posts are off. There is virtually no difference between a kid running a 4.5 40' or a 4.6 (its something like one yard over 5 seconds, assuming they both run full bore the entire time). However, a player incorrectly diagnoses a play (constant against Louisville) and takes an extra second to react can account for a pretty big advantage when running those same speeds (like a 9 yard difference).

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I think this is really it. I think the "not fast enough" posts are off. There is virtually no difference between a kid running a 4.5 40' or a 4.6 (its something like one yard over 5 seconds, assuming they both run full bore the entire time). However, a player incorrectly diagnoses a play (constant against Louisville) and takes an extra second to react can account for a pretty big advantage when running those same speeds (like a 9 yard difference).

There have been pursuit issues. A few players have taken bad angles which has led to bigger plays. Now if the other team doesn't have speed, you can get away with taking the bad angle and make a play. Same thing if you are really fast. However when the other team has speed, those bad angles will end up being killers. With some of these players the same thing happened last year as well. I agree that the different system can slow you down, but that isn't the only issue we have had.

 

[bcubs9497]

There have been pursuit issues. A few players have taken bad angles which has led to bigger plays. Now if the other team doesn't have speed, you can get away with taking the bad angle and make a play. Same thing if you are really fast. However when the other team has speed, those bad angles will end up being killers. With some of these players the same thing happened last year as well. I agree that the different system can slow you down, but that isn't the only issue we have had.

It is the BIGGEST single issue we've had, other than stupid penalties. And that's a direct consequence of a lack of experience. As long as the kids are not as stupid as a box of rocks (they're not), things will get better as the season progresses.

 

[DoctorBombay]

All this back and forth about defense reminds me of the new similarities in our MFB and MBB programs.
When the 2-3 zone isn't working early in a given season, you'll have many people, myself included, clamoring to scrap it or "switch it up" every once in a while. Of course, since JB is committed to & has faith in his system, 9x outta 10 by season's end, it gels into the devastating D that we all know and love.
HCDB has his system. It's worked everywhere he's been and once the pieces are in place, not unlike the "big, long athletes" that work best in JBs zone, this D will work as well. And yes, before anyone points out that we have 30+ bball games versus 11 in ftball, that's precisely why it'll take a couple of years to fall into place. Patience, as I always remind my daughter, is a virtue...and in our case, a necessity.

 

[RF2044]

Again, i haven't read anybody "tearing down the kids". Saying we don't have the talent level of these last two teams who blew us out and saying we need to recruit better players is dealing with reality, not "tearing down the kids".

I also haven't ready anywhere that UCONN will "crush" us. It should be noted they were the only team to beat Houston last eyar. That means we can't take them for granted, not that they will "crush" us.

Nor has anyone said they wish we had the guys who went to Ped State.

Great post, agree 100%.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

All this back and forth about defense reminds me of the new similarities in our MFB and MBB programs.
When the 2-3 zone isn't working early in a given season, you'll have many people, myself included, clamoring to scrap it or "switch it up" every once in a while. Of course, since JB is committed to & has faith in his system, 9x outta 10 by season's end, it gels into the devastating D that we all know and love.
HCDB has his system. It's worked everywhere he's been and once the pieces are in place, not unlike the "big, long athletes" that work best in JBs zone, this D will work as well. And yes, before anyone points out that we have 30+ bball games versus 11 in ftball, that's precisely why it'll take a couple of years to fall into place. Patience, as I always remind my daughter, is a virtue...and in our case, a necessity.

What Babers ran his first 3 years on D was different than what he ran his 4th year and this year on D. So I don't think he is locked into this D and I wouldn't say he has his D system. It is what he is going with right now. If it isn't working after 2 years, I think he would switch.

 

[SoBristol]

I suspect nearly everyone understands that Dino prefers taller LBs and DBs -- and by the way, Shafer tried to recruit several of those for his defenses.

But is lack of height the issue in what we have seen? Mainly, it has been the talent and speed of opposing QBs, RBs, and WRs and not necessarily how tall our defenders are.

Dino said the transition takes longer here because his defensive system is different from what Shafer/Bullough taught. I really like Dino, and there is only so much he can say after a losing effort. I doubt he wants to get into why his DEs fail to contain, why LBs aren't able to get off blocks etc, some bad positioning within his system ...

 

[DoctorBombay]

What Babers ran his first 3 years on D was different than what he ran his 4th year and this year on D. So I don't think he is locked into this D and I wouldn't say he has his D system. It is what he is going with right now. If it isn't working after 2 years, I think he would switch.

Agreed. He's only been a HC a limited number of years. JB eventually settled on the 2-3 after a number of years playing traditional M2M. I think HCDB will figure out the tweaks he needs to put in to make his D work here. He's an intelligent guy who'll weigh the pros and cons and adjust accordingly. As long as he's doing it for an emerging SU program, I'm all for it!

 

[Chip]

It is the BIGGEST single issue we've had, other than stupid penalties. And that's a direct consequence of a lack of experience. As long as the kids are not as stupid as a box of rocks (they're not), things will get better as the season progresses.

I'd say an equal combo of the the angles/pursuit, and missed assignments. Both correctable.

Doesn't mean that correcting them makes us a great defense, but it should cut down the big plays, which as KingOtto said yesterday is at a record pace (> 30 yard runs).

Taking to the next level and becoming a good to great defense is going to take a couple of years of recruiting, experience, weight training, depth building. That part will always be an uphill battle based on our offensive pace, but it can be done.

 

[Millhouse]

Sorry if someone else caught this

Dead last in the country in 30+,40+ yard runs allowed
texas has allowed one more 50+ YES
memphis and NM State have allowed one more 60+ yarder YES

 

[TheCusian]

Here's the thing. We returned much of the defense from last year. They didn't get slower or less talented. (There is a talent gap between us and the top teams, but it existed last year too).

It's the new system. Either it's bad (too soon to tell) or they are in the "growing pains" stage and we'll see improvement.

 

[Millhouse]

Here's the thing. We returned much of the defense from last year. They didn't get slower or less talented. (There is a talent gap between us and the top teams, but it existed last year too).

It's the new system. Either it's bad (too soon to tell) or they are in the "growing pains" stage and we'll see improvement.

you don't have to lose that many guys to drop off

 

[Chip]

you don't have to lose that many guys to drop off

And the defense wasn't that good last year.

It's ok to lose 2 starting DEs when you've got a couple of 2,3.4 year players who were in the rotation.

When you lose your 2 DEs, and you have to replace them with a true freshman and a redshirt freshman who never played a snap, or slide over a DT whose never played there, it's a big drop off.

We're also forced to play safeties with little to no experience.

 

[TheCusian]

you don't have to lose that many guys to drop off

We lost two DE and CB who was benched mid season. DE is a problem, but I don't think they are responsible for safeties being out of place or LB being flat footed.

 

[TheCusian]

And the defense wasn't that good last year.

It's ok to lose 2 starting DEs when you've got a couple of 2,3.4 year players who were in the rotation.

When you lose your 2 DEs, and you have to replace them with a true freshman and a redshirt freshman who never played a snap, or slide over a DT whose never played there, it's a big drop off.

We're also forced to play safeties with little to no experience.

Exactly. But I don't think we gave up the big plays as much as we have so far. Might be the competition, but I think the issues with big plays are scheme and guys not being in the right spot, more than talent disparities (although it's clear there is one).

 

[RF2044]

Here's the thing. We returned much of the defense from last year. They didn't get slower or less talented. (There is a talent gap between us and the top teams, but it existed last year too).

It's the new system. Either it's bad (too soon to tell) or they are in the "growing pains" stage and we'll see improvement.

No, it's the new system AND the personnel [at a lot of positions on D]. Once the latter is optimized, the execution will improve. It will also improve once the kids are more acclimated to their new roles / responsibilities in the Tampa 2, and as they physically mature over time / progress into being experienced upperclassmen throughout the course of their careers.

Returning starters isn't particularly relevant if the returning group isn't that strong. Last year's defense was the worst we've had in 8 years or so.

It's okay to acknowledge that we have some gaps on the roster, whereas other positional units are well stocked / more experienced / performing at a higher level right now.

 

[GoSU96]

3 NFL draft picks there in the starting line up. I think you are right I don't see anyone that could be replaced by what we have now, you could debate Lewis and Slayton, that would be it. Lewis was pretty good though too, GROB wasn't a bad recruiter 1-10, it was the back end of the classes where he fell off a cliff. O Line was tough too

AJones, Perkins, Lewis, Stenclik were P recruits.

Shamarko, Phil Thomas, Carter, Sharpe and Ball were brought in by Marrone and of course Hogue was moved from RB and I think Smith had played on the DL the year before.

Merk and the Scotts were okay, but I wouldn't put them head and shoulders above anybody and Phil Thomas ended up playing a lot. Suter was edged out over time by Shamarko as a true freshmen. Mike Holmes was very good. Other than Art and Chandler I'd say those other guys were decent upper classmen, but wouldn't go beyond that.

Playing a lot of new guys and throwing them in the deep end. What they are as freshmen and sophs isn't what they are going to be as seniors.

 

[TheCusian]

No, it's the new system AND the personnel [at a lot of positions on D]. Once the latter is optimized, the execution will improve. It will also improve once the kids are more acclimated to their new roles / responsibilities in the Tampa 2, and as they physically mature over time / progress into being experienced upperclassmen throughout the course of their careers.

Returning starters isn't particularly relevant if the returning group isn't that strong. Last year's defense was the worst we've had in 8 years or so.

It's okay to acknowledge that we have some gaps on the roster, whereas other positional units are well stocked / more experienced / performing at a higher level right now.

I agree. I should have been clearer. Without doing the research, it feels like the amount of big plays have increased. I was speaking specifically to that increase, but didn't quote the post).

Maybe that's due to the increase in possessions. But I think it's scheme more than talent.

Overall D: I think it's a combo of possessions, talent, and new scheme.

 

[GoSU96]

Sorry if someone else caught this

Dead last in the country in 30+,40+ yard runs allowed
texas has allowed one more 50+ YES
memphis and NM State have allowed one more 60+ yarder YES

Pointed that out earlier, that's why the numbers on defense is skewed. Eliminate those long TD runs and the defense won't look so ridiculous.

 

[Orangello]

Sorry if someone else caught this

Dead last in the country in 30+,40+ yard runs allowed
texas has allowed one more 50+ YES
memphis and NM State have allowed one more 60+ yarder YES

I'd add to that the inability of our DB's to cover post/seam routes. Ville ran the same play about 10 times for huge gains and USF hit on it about 5 times. Get rid of the long runs and wide open over the middle bombs and this D might have a puncher's chance.

 

[HtownOrange]

Again, i haven't read anybody "tearing down the kids". Saying we don't have the talent level of these last two teams who blew us out and saying we need to recruit better players is dealing with reality, not "tearing down the kids".

I also haven't ready anywhere that UCONN will "crush" us. It should be noted they were the only team to beat Houston last eyar. That means we can't take them for granted, not that they will "crush" us.

Nor has anyone said they wish we had the guys who went to Ped State.

SWC, you are due much respect. On this issue we will disagree. As you state, "Saying we don't have the talent level of these last two teams who blew us out and saying we need to recruit better players," is one thing. Claiming Syracuse may not win another game or cannot go bowling and such are tearing down kids. Being realistic is approaching the new system and evaluating the kids against what they were last season and last week and the week before that. Complaining about the last coaching staff's recruiting is slamming the kids on the team as the majority we recruited by Shafer and Co. You don't have to agree, but the kids do. They know that when reference is made to Shafer's recruits and the kids previously recruited, etc., lack the skills, lack the talent, etc. posters are cutting these kids down. Repetitive complaints about it only makes things worse; not you, but a few posters cannot stop posting about how bad the talent is, in this thread and other threads.

As for UConn praise, re-read the posts. If you still disagree, so be it. I have seen nothing from UConn that makes me believe that Syracuse cannot win. I have seen nothing to lead me to believe that Syracuse should not win. As for UConn and Houston, Houston was without their leadership that game. How good was UConn otherwise? Essentially, you imply UConn was great because they beat Houston, not that Houston had one bad game - take a look at why UConn was able to beat Houston; considering where Houston finished and UConn finished, there probably is an aberration in the results.

My comments about the other schools was simply to show support for our guys on the team, not to address any alleged claim that a poster wanted kids from PedState. My point had to do with the fact that every kid on the team has chosen to play on the HIll and wear orange. Every kid on the team right now deserves our support as fans. Apparently I failed to make that point clear, that is my failure. Regardless, I support this team because I am an Orange fan. I won't criticize the kids because Shafer recruited them and they don't fit Baber's system. They are learning and they will make mistakes. If they make these same mistakes in week 10 or 12, then there may be some room for criticism for their play, not because Shafer recruited them.

Anyway, as I said, you are due much respect. You are generally honest in your analysis and I will continue to read your "Why Opponent Will Win" and "Why Syracuse Will Win" and other posts.

 

[SWC75]

SWC, you are due much respect. On this issue we will disagree. As you state, "Saying we don't have the talent level of these last two teams who blew us out and saying we need to recruit better players," is one thing. Claiming Syracuse may not win another game or cannot go bowling and such are tearing down kids. Being realistic is approaching the new system and evaluating the kids against what they were last season and last week and the week before that. Complaining about the last coaching staff's recruiting is slamming the kids on the team as the majority we recruited by Shafer and Co. You don't have to agree, but the kids do. They know that when reference is made to Shafer's recruits and the kids previously recruited, etc., lack the skills, lack the talent, etc. posters are cutting these kids down. Repetitive complaints about it only makes things worse; not you, but a few posters cannot stop posting about how bad the talent is, in this thread and other threads.

As for UConn praise, re-read the posts. If you still disagree, so be it. I have seen nothing from UConn that makes me believe that Syracuse cannot win. I have seen nothing to lead me to believe that Syracuse should not win. As for UConn and Houston, Houston was without their leadership that game. How good was UConn otherwise? Essentially, you imply UConn was great because they beat Houston, not that Houston had one bad game - take a look at why UConn was able to beat Houston; considering where Houston finished and UConn finished, there probably is an aberration in the results.

My comments about the other schools was simply to show support for our guys on the team, not to address any alleged claim that a poster wanted kids from PedState. My point had to do with the fact that every kid on the team has chosen to play on the HIll and wear orange. Every kid on the team right now deserves our support as fans. Apparently I failed to make that point clear, that is my failure. Regardless, I support this team because I am an Orange fan. I won't criticize the kids because Shafer recruited them and they don't fit Baber's system. They are learning and they will make mistakes. If they make these same mistakes in week 10 or 12, then there may be some room for criticism for their play, not because Shafer recruited them.

Anyway, as I said, you are due much respect. You are generally honest in your analysis and I will continue to read your "Why Opponent Will Win" and "Why Syracuse Will Win" and other posts.

Has someone claimed that Syracuse "will not win another game"?

I didn't say UCONN was great, I said they beat Houston. Since Houston runs the spread, that has to be a concern.

As far as comments about the kids Shafer recruited, you can't evaluate the team without evaluating the talent. We aren't insulting the kids. We're just describing what we see. It may take 2-3 recruiting classes to catch up to some of the teams we are playing.

It's possible to make points without overstating what others have said.

 

[alphaorange]

Him being at C/OG won't help the D.

I didn't say he wouldn't make the 2 deep. IMO he wouldn't have started over Lewis.

I don't think it is an insult to say that an upperclassman who was a decent college player and was good enough to sign as an undrafted FA with an NFL team is better than a true soph.

I also didn't say that one day Clark won't be better than Lewis. What I am saying is that 2016 Clark isn't as good as 2009 Lewis. However chances are 2017 Clark will be better than 2009 Lewis, but that does nothing to help the 2016 D.

Not really a matter of talent, then, is it? Seems more like a matter of experience which is something totally different.