Nate Oats vs. Coach Hop Thread

[alphaorange]

I would think Hop will be the more realistic option

Im aware theres multiple reasonable additional candidates, but I find the comparison of these two to be the most interesting and the most often brought up.

Im aware theres multiple reasonable additional candidates, but I find the comparison of these two to be the most interesting and the most often brought up.

You should read my reply again. I was speaking of God and it was tongue in cheek. I also wasn't replying to your post. Other people got it, why didn't you?

 

[Trueblue25]

You should read my reply again. I was speaking of God and it was tongue in cheek. I also wasn't replying to your post. Other people got it, why didn't you?

Read it too quickly, my bad

 

[ar inj]

Bill Guthridge wasn't that bad. 2 final fours in his three years and a national coach of the year award.
Matt Doherty sucked pretty hard.

My bad I was misremembering the bad UNC fill-in.

 

[Briancuse]

I don't like Oats.

What about Hall?

 

[Doc5120]

Why not both? Co-head coaches. Lets be different.

That sounds like a 2 QB approach to me.

 

[HuskyHooper]

Hop might be available in a couple years, but not sure your AD will be able to sell the hire. It’s not very often a coach bottoms out, gets fired, and then gets hired at a better program. Obviously it’s a different situation because of Hop’s ties to Syracuse, but if he were to get fired from UW, hired by Syracuse, and didn’t do well, that would look bad on the AD. Obvious questions would be, why did you just hire a guy who couldn’t pull his own weight in a much weaker conference.

 

[721Comstock]

Hop might be available in a couple years, but not sure your AD will be able to sell the hire. It’s not very often a coach bottoms out, gets fired, and then gets hired at a better program. Obviously it’s a different situation because of Hop’s ties to Syracuse, but if he were to get fired from UW, hired by Syracuse, and didn’t do well, that would look bad on the AD. Obvious questions would be, why did you just hire a guy who couldn’t pull his own weight in a much weaker conference.

Bill Belichick says hi!

 

[HuskyHooper]

Bill Belichick says hi!

Belichick has about 5 years in between his firing from Cleveland to his hiring in NE.

 

[cuseinseattle]

Hop might be available in a couple years, but not sure your AD will be able to sell the hire. It’s not very often a coach bottoms out, gets fired, and then gets hired at a better program. Obviously it’s a different situation because of Hop’s ties to Syracuse, but if he were to get fired from UW, hired by Syracuse, and didn’t do well, that would look bad on the AD. Obvious questions would be, why did you just hire a guy who couldn’t pull his own weight in a much weaker conference.

First he is not going to get fired by UW. 2nd they would probably account for what a bad job UW is. I mean they have made the tournament 9 times in the last 35 years. The 27 wins Hopkins got is year 2 is the 2nd most wins in school history behind the #1 seed team that Romar had. They only won 2 more games and I think had 3-4 NBA players and flamed out in the sweet 16. Romar missed the tourney like 6 years in a row and there were still people not wanting to fire him. The program is an after though in the city as a whole. Few people care. It is a football school. When the football team has success which they have had over the last 5 years no one cares about anything else.

 

[Wrinkle]

The disintegration of the succession plan still really bothers me. We had a situation like no other in sports, where our legend of decades was to hand the torch to his protege of decades. It was going to be something special. I still believe Hop returns if we want him, and I really hope we do.

 

[OrangeAl]

I don't like Oats.

The only reason not to like Oats is because of how he crowed over beating SU.
Living in western NY, I found him to come off as a good, personable guy who was doing things right at UB.

 

[Briancuse]

Bill Belichick says hi!

Bill's Cleveland resume gets under valued. The guy won 11 games there one year and is the only Browns coach to win a playoff game in 30 years. Then Modell pulled the rug out from under him.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Hop was the ideal program guy to partner with JB. He was in essence the COO, and a player friendly COO to JB's CEO when he was here at SU. The two of them together made for a dynamite combo with great recruiting, great player relationships and a good partnership between player needs, game strategy and team morale.

Hop on his own has shown that the CEO role is still a work in progress. He doesn't have the feel for in game adjustments and it appears that simplicity of scouting (see recent Athletic article) takes a little longer to deploy if it was carried through. I am not sure he has really built his own style on the court. There is no doubt in his recruiting abilities and relationship building especially on the East Coast. I still think he needs to find himself game plan wise. The current staff I believe fails to challenge JB as much as Hop did. I don't say that from a source of knowledge just observation.


When I look at Oats- I look at a clean slate- new guy in town. That said if he sends the incumbents packing off the staff, who are extremely entrenched in SU hoops from multiple perspectives not the least the fans, his road to success will be tough. He will install a brand new style, different types of recruits and may have a short leash. It's good he is getting experience at Bama and has local roots but he is protected by Bama football. Here he is front and center. Can he handle it and do so with grace? We all know locals won't give him 1/10th of the rope JB gets for obvious reasons.

Both choices have their issues. It's possible neither may be ideal. I like Hop more than Oats for continuity but it's a near even line.

It's really hard to hire a new coach and make him keep the prior coach's assistants.

That seldom works out. Usually they leave, or at least the important ones.

 

[Orangezoo]

It's really hard to hire a new coach and make him keep the prior coach's assistants.

That seldom works out. Usually they leave, or at least the important ones.

Agreed it's essentially inevitable. With that said you would be losing 3 guys with deep ties to the program as players and now coaches. That is a big adjustment and loss even with bringing in a likely high quality staff.

 

[HuskyHooper]

First he is not going to get fired by UW. 2nd they would probably account for what a bad job UW is. I mean they have made the tournament 9 times in the last 35 years. The 27 wins Hopkins got is year 2 is the 2nd most wins in school history behind the #1 seed team that Romar had. They only won 2 more games and I think had 3-4 NBA players and flamed out in the sweet 16. Romar missed the tourney like 6 years in a row and there were still people not wanting to fire him. The program is an after though in the city as a whole. Few people care. It is a football school. When the football team has success which they have had over the last 5 years no one cares about anything else.

Agree to disagree then. Hop is not getting fired this year. Next year will be his fifth year, typically that’s more than enough time to fully evaluate a coach. If they finish near last this year and next (which is very likely), they will definitely consider it. I’m not saying he will get fired, but it will be under consideration. But to act like his job is safe even if he has three consecutive last place finishes is ignorance. One tourney appearance in five years is bad, they could have just kept Romar if they wanted those results. And I’ll say this again, Hop won with Romar’s recruits, not his own.

I live in Seattle, I’m fully aware UW hoops is an afterthought, but it’s still the AD’s job to have a competitive team.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Agreed it's essentially inevitable. With that said you would be losing 3 guys with deep ties to the program as players and now coaches. That is a big adjustment and loss even with bringing in a likely high quality staff.

It's like when Marrone left the football team. He took a couple assistants with him, and left a few behind, including Shafer.

If Oats, say, was the hire, I could see him keep Gerry, because he's a big name and is "a" face of the program, was a national champ, had some amazing, memorable games. Gerry has been working hard on the recruiting trail. He has a lot of contacts he has been building up.

Red, if he were passed over, would probably look for a mid-level program to get his first head coaching job, ideally around Virginia or Maryland, where he has had some recruiting success. I could see Allen Griffen going to be an assistant at a Big 10 school, as the #1 guy to the head coach. He has pulled some guys from the Midwest over the years, but I don't think he's ready to be a head coach for a MAC team yet.

The new guy could bring in a big time east coast AAU recruiter as an assistant. And then probably a young protege who has worked with Oats (or the new guy) in the past, who knows how he likes to run his practices and understands his approach.

That's kind of how I could see it, whenever it happens.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Agree to disagree then. Hop is not getting fired this year. Next year will be his fifth year, typically that’s more than enough time to fully evaluate a coach. If they finish near last this year and next (which is very likely), they will definitely consider it. I’m not saying he will get fired, but it will be under consideration. But to act like his job is safe even if he has three consecutive last place finishes is ignorance.

I live in Seattle, I’m fully aware UW hoops is an afterthought, but it’s still the AD’s job to have a competitive team.

You may live in Seattle, but you seem intent on seeing him fail.

He was TWICE Pac-12 Coach of the Year, and he had 1 bad season when you lost a 5 star point guard, and apparently a couple first round talents maybe played too selfishly.

If UW stinks this year, well, it's going to be weird for everyone because of COVID, but I would be surprised if Mike has a full healthy roster and finished last again.

And then you are assuming he finishes last AGAIN, two years from now, when this season hasn't even happened yet, and you don't even know who will be on your team two years from now.

So, whatever.

 

[HuskyHooper]

You may live in Seattle, but you seem intent on seeing him fail.

He was TWICE Pac-12 Coach of the Year, and he had 1 bad season when you lost a 5 star point guard, and apparently a couple first round talents maybe played too selfishly.

If UW stinks this year, well, it's going to be weird for everyone because of COVID, but I would be surprised if Mike has a full healthy roster and finished last again.

And then you are assuming he finishes last AGAIN, two years from now, when this season hasn't even happened yet, and you don't even know who will be on your team two years from now.

So, whatever.

Im being a very fair with Hop.

What he did in his first two years was nothing short of amazing.

What he did last year, was also nothing short of amazing. He finished last with a ton of talent.

My issue is there is no clear plan. He hasn’t recruited at all this year and next. We have a total of one recruit between the 2020 and 2021 class. We missed on nearly everyone we went after in 2021.

The team sucks right now. Im fine with that. It’s one year. But show me where it gets better? We likely lose our two best players next year and have one kid signed. UW is down by 20 to Utah and about to start 0-3. Thy may not finish last, but it’s safe to say near the bottom. And unless he has something up his sleeve, we will likely be at or near the bottom next year.

This is his fourth year. One tourney appearance with a team that was hand picked by the former coach. He has developed no one. BPJ and Hardy transferred out. Bey and Wright have been major disappointments.

From what I’ve heard, the Quade academics issue looked really bad for Hop and the staff. It’s on coaches to make sure kids go to class and do their work. There is a reason why you almost never see academics get in the way once kids are accepted. The Naz situation doesn’t look good either.

I like Hop, and think he is a good coach. I’m just not sure he is a fit here. I think he would do great at Cuse because of his ties back East and his relationship with the school. From what I’ve heard, he has ruffled some feathers in the local basketball community. Some thought he handled McDaniels poorly. Might be why a lot of the local kids went elsewhere.

Im not out to see Hop fail. I like him and want the best for him and UW. Just don’t think it’s a fit. Finishing near last place in your third and fourth year isn’t a good sign. This is about building a program. He won early based off coaching up really good players who were already here. He is yet to show he can recruit, develop, and then win.

 

[nyucuse]

First he is not going to get fired by UW. 2nd they would probably account for what a bad job UW is. I mean they have made the tournament 9 times in the last 35 years. The 27 wins Hopkins got is year 2 is the 2nd most wins in school history behind the #1 seed team that Romar had. They only won 2 more games and I think had 3-4 NBA players and flamed out in the sweet 16. Romar missed the tourney like 6 years in a row and there were still people not wanting to fire him. The program is an after though in the city as a whole. Few people care. It is a football school. When the football team has success which they have had over the last 5 years no one cares about anything else.

That all likely is true, but our visitor's point still holds - IF JW hired MH after bombing out at UW, there is only downside for him as AD. I made the point before, when does a top program hire a coach coming off of a major failure? It would be selling the program very short. Hopefully it doesn't come to this. Ideally Hop turns it around and comes home a winner, or JW goes outside and finds the best possible candidate. As I have said before, you need to follow the OSU, UL, UVA model - take a highly accomplished coach from a program that is a step below, either A10 type, or low level P5 type (Wash St -> UVA).

 

[IthacaMatt]

Im being a very fair with Hop.

What he did in his first two years was nothing short of amazing.

What he did last year, was also nothing short of amazing. He finished last with a ton of talent.

My issue is there is no clear plan. He hasn’t recruited at all this year and next. We have a total of one recruit between the 2020 and 2021 class. We missed on nearly everyone we went after in 2021.

The team sucks right now. Im fine with that. It’s one year. But show me where it gets better? We likely lose our two best players next year and have one kid signed. UW is down by 20 to Utah and about to start 0-3. Thy may not finish last, but it’s safe to say near the bottom. And unless he has something up his sleeve, we will likely be at or near the bottom next year.

This is his fourth year. One tourney appearance with a team that was hand picked by the former coach. He has developed no one. BPJ and Hardy transferred out. Bey and Wright have been major disappointments.

From what I’ve heard, the Quade academics issue looked really bad for Hop and the staff. It’s on coaches to make sure kids go to class and do their work. There is a reason why you almost never see academics get in the way once kids are accepted. The Naz situation doesn’t look good either.

I like Hop, and think he is a good coach. I’m just not sure he is a fit here. I think he would do great at Cuse because of his ties back East and his relationship with the school. From what I’ve heard, he has ruffled some feathers in the local basketball community. Some thought he handled McDaniels poorly. Might be why a lot of the local kids went elsewhere.

Im not out to see Hop fail. I like him and want the best for him and UW. Just don’t think it’s a fit. Finishing near last place in your third and fourth year isn’t a good sign. This is about building a program. He won early based off coaching up really good players who were already here. He is yet to show he can recruit, develop, and then win.

Well, you're right that this is a big year for him. Good luck.

 

[moqui]

hop drops another tonight

 

[HuskyHooper]

That all likely is true, but our visitor's point still holds - IF JW hired MH after bombing out at UW, there is only downside for him as AD. I made the point before, when does a top program hire a coach coming off of a major failure? It would be selling the program very short. Hopefully it doesn't come to this. Ideally Hop turns it around and comes home a winner, or JW goes outside and finds the best possible candidate. As I have said before, you need to follow the OSU, UL, UVA model - take a highly accomplished coach from a program that is a step below, either A10 type, or low level P5 type (Wash St -> UVA).

I just don’t think it’s very realistic that any program would hire a guy after he bottoms out and gets fired. At least not right away. Maybe Hop gets fired, takes an assistant job somewhere and then lands the Syracuse job down the line. But the AD would be putting their job on the line if they hire Hop after a bad showing at UW.

And like you guys, we are also thinking of future coaches. I agree that best candidates are guys doing really well one level below. Think Brad Underwood, Mike Young, etc.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I just don’t think it’s very realistic that any program would hire a guy after he bottoms out and gets fired. At least not right away. Maybe Hop gets fired, takes an assistant job somewhere and then lands the Syracuse job down the line. But the AD would be putting their job on the line if they hire Hop after a bad showing at UW.

And like you guys, we are also thinking of future coaches. I agree that best candidates are guys doing really well one level below. Think Brad Underwood, Mike Young, etc.

I'm not sure why I keep responding, but you don't seem to understand the situation with any sense of neutrality.

Hopkins, if he got fired in a couple years, could walk into many mid-major head coaching jobs. He won't have to be an assistant again.

He coached the NBA guys on the Olympics team. He was a terrific recruiter, and I'm sure he could be again, if he's stalling out with UW. He was written up as one of the best assistants in America numerous times.

His resume is better than most candidates out there. He won Coach of the Year in a P-5 Conference in his first 2 years as a head coach anywhere. He has a great, upbeat personality.

I mean, you think this guy can't get another head coaching job? You're nuts. I mean, really. You are nuts.

 

[HuskyHooper]

I'm not sure why I keep responding, but you don't seem to understand the situation with any sense of neutrality.

Hopkins, if he got fired in a couple years, could walk into many mid-major head coaching jobs. He won't have to be an assistant again.

He coached the NBA guys on the Olympics team. He was a terrific recruiter, and I'm sure he could be again, if he's stalling out with UW. He was written up as one of the best assistants in America numerous times.

His resume is better than most candidates out there. He won Coach of the Year in a P-5 Conference in his first 2 years as a head coach anywhere. He has a great, upbeat personality.

I mean, you think this guy can't get another head coaching job? You're nuts. I mean, really. You are nuts.

Where did I say he can’t get another head coaching job? I just said maybe he goes back to being an assistant. Some guys prefer being an assistant at a P5 school over being a head coach at a mid major. If UW and Hop part ways, of course he will become a HC again, most any P5 coaches that get fired resurface.

What isn’t common is a P5 coach getting fired and getting hired by another P5 team immediately after.

 

[orangepassion]

Where did I say he can’t get another head coaching job? I just said maybe he goes back to being an assistant. Some guys prefer being an assistant at a P5 school over being a head coach at a mid major. If UW and Hop part ways, of course he will become a HC again, most any P5 coaches that get fired resurface.

What isn’t common is a P5 coach getting fired and getting hired by another P5 team immediately after.

I think that's a fair comment