NBA Thread 2020-21 Season

[MikeSU02]

Agree 100%, I don't think Draymond is what he was back 3-4 years ago either and not really close. Always hurt and with Klay he's been hurt. Steph changed the game, he's arguably the best shooter ever ( Highly debatable I know) but he and Klay are probably the best shooting back court ever. The team that lost to the Cavs before KD was one of the best teams ever and Steph was by far the best player on that team. Steph is also 6-3, 180 not a physical freak like a lot of these guys out there. I don't even like the Warriors.

I just think Steph is aging a bit and Steph and Klay are also 2nd generation and I think that hurts both their street cred to be honest and why you see some of this stuff starting to pop up.

Steph being the best shooter is not highly debatable. You are right, he is, and it's not particularly close, imo. When you consider the volume he needed to shoot at (versus a Kyle Korver, for example) plus his stats and winning (versus a Ray Allen), he has that crown.

I think you are right - Steph is a bit older, coming off injury, and at the last minute, GSW had to sign Oubre who seems like he'd rather get his fit covered than work on his jumper. Draymond is just toast. I'm sure he can still hang in there and be a solid contributor, but he isn't remotely close to what he was.

 

[Horn88]

Who are these dream teamers? Do you want to see the on/off stats for Steph vs KD when they were on the team together? I promise you the make Steph look much more valuable than KD.

Without KD, the Dubs won 73 games.

Klay and Draymond had their lives made 100x easier because of Steph. Draymond on any mediocre team is a guy who just gets technical fouls and plays good D.

It's the first two weeks of the season, how are you so sure about anything?

I specifically said in my last paragraph of this post you quote that it’s early and they very well could make the playoffs. So not sure what you’re last sentence refers to.

By dream teamers I meant guys playing on Team USA. They had multiple Team USA players throughout the Warriors run. Klay was on team USA in 2014 and 2016. Draymond was on Team USA in 2016. Then they added Durant. These are facts so again I’m not sure what to make of your question.

I think when you start dissecting which MVP on your team plays better with the other two Team USA members in a conversation about (or atleast what my point has been) superstars having to carry teams it’s kinda getting off base.

I think Steph is a great player and probably best shooter I’ll ever see. I think he’s always been treated differently than other superstars.

 

[Knicks411]

Draymond has definitely fallen off, he's battled a ton of injuries, and that 40% 3 point shooting from 2016 looks like such an outlier.

That said, a healthy, engaged Draymond is still really good. At least he was the last time that guy existed, 2019 playoffs. Such a great defensive player, so smart, he just blows plays up before they even get going. Really good playmaker too. he just sees the game so well. On the other hand, I suppose there's a ceiling on how good you can be when you shoot 39% from the field, like he did last year.

 

[Horn88]

I don't think Steph is the player he was in his MVP winning prime. He's a small guard and he's 32 now. I still think he's very good, maybe even he is great still, but he's not the 2015-18 guy.

I don't totall agree that the pre Durant warriors were "loaded". Steph was the driving force behind those teams. The on/off numbers tell the story. Klay and Draymond are both great players in their own way, but again, I think Steph was the engine there. Everything came off his shooting and the attention it drew; Draymond is a great playmaker, but they could get a 4 on 3 every time they did a Steph/Green PNR because the other team was so scared of Steph shooting they would double/trap him everywhere. It's awesome that Klay can score 50 pts or whatever and dribble 8 times in a whole game, but what if he had to dribble a little more?

I guess it’s all relative. I think the pre-Durant Warriors were great, deep teams. They had the MVP and then he was supported by two Team USA/all star guys, Iggy wasn’t in his prime but still a great role player and incredible defender, an explosive bench with a lot of scoring juice, Bogut and Barnes were good role players to fill out the starting group. I mean they won 73 games.

I’m obviously in the minority with my opinion based on the posts but I also feel like this thread has missed my point. I’ve never said Steph isn’t a great player or a superstar or anything like that.

My point is that he gets treated differently than almost any other superstar I can think of in the modern NBA. When he plays poorly in the finals it’s because he’s hurt. When they blow a 3-1 lead and he implodes in G6 and G7 he plays pretty poorly, they make excuses. When he has to step up because Klay and KD are hurt in ‘19 he gets outplayed by FVV at home to close out a ring and it isn’t really mentioned but other superstars would be crushed for all that. Now he has an average roster around him and they’re starting shaky and the excuses for him were starting up again.

Thats really all I’m saying. I’m not sure where all the other stuff came from in this thread and this isn’t directed at you but just broadly.

 

[Knicks411]

I read this take somewhere, maybe Zach Lowe, re: Curry's superstar status.

He's probably more of a ceiling raiser than a floor raiser. Take him against a guy like Russ, who is probably the ultimate floor raiser but ceiling capper; if you put him on a team like the 17 Thunder, he will basically just do everything, eat a ton of possessions with meh efficiency, but just by sheer force of nature and the amount of everything he does, the team is decent. James Harden maybe similar to this, he's way more efficient than Russ, but both guys were monopolizing the offense.

Steph is (or was) not exactly like that, his gravity does affect his teammates and will raise their floor to an extent, but he's not going to be the guy who just totally monopolizes everything and makes you a playoff team. (we think, I guess).

But then take a team that is already good or really good, and Steph shines. His interaction with other good/great players is exponential. You put Russ on those Warriors teams, and what really do you get? Russ isn't going to interact with a Klay or Green like Steph does, he's just going to continue to use a ton of possessions with decent efficiency. Ditto Harden, he's already super efficient, but you aren't going to see what you did with Steph and the Warriors, he would just run a ton of isos or whatever.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Westbrook shouldn’t even be in these conversations. He’s never been too 5 in the league IMO. Steph on one leg torched Westbrook in games 6 and 7 of the 2016 WCF and that was the end of Durant in OKC.

 

[Horn88]

This is interesting because I'm seeing that it's helping to clarify my own position on things.

I'm also of the belief that if a guy is really that good, he gets his team to the playoffs.

But now I'm seeing, that's a standard I only care to apply to young players. Vets that have done some winning, I don't worry about it anymore. Steph to me has nothing to prove, plus, he did take his team to the playoffs twice under Mark Jackson before the Warriors really became the Warriors we knew. I didn't care when Melo didn't get the Knicks to the playoffs.

So, yeah, when a young guy is getting hyped, I want to see them get to the playoffs before I give them credit. But once a guy has done that, I'm not sure what more he needs to prove.

Yea I don’t think Steph really has anything left to prove in terms of solidifying himself as one of the best shooters I’ll ever see and HOF all that.

 

[Horn88]

I read this take somewhere, maybe Zach Lowe, re: Curry's superstar status.

He's probably more of a ceiling raiser than a floor raiser. Take him against a guy like Russ, who is probably the ultimate floor raiser but ceiling capper; if you put him on a team like the 17 Thunder, he will basically just do everything, eat a ton of possessions with meh efficiency, but just by sheer force of nature and the amount of everything he does, the team is decent. James Harden maybe similar to this, he's way more efficient than Russ, but both guys were monopolizing the offense.

Steph is (or was) not exactly like that, his gravity does affect his teammates and will raise their floor to an extent, but he's not going to be the guy who just totally monopolizes everything and makes you a playoff team. (we think, I guess).

But then take a team that is already good or really good, and Steph shines. His interaction with other good/great players is exponential. You put Russ on those Warriors teams, and what really do you get? Russ isn't going to interact with a Klay or Green like Steph does, he's just going to continue to use a ton of possessions with decent efficiency. Ditto Harden, he's already super efficient, but you aren't going to see what you did with Steph and the Warriors, he would just run a ton of isos or whatever.

I think that’s pretty much a perfect way to put it and I think Draymond is pretty similar. He can be the missing piece to push a good or really good team to the next tier with his versatility. He’s so smart defensively and is skilled with the ball as a creator along with the type of toughness and cockiness you need to win. On the other hand if he’s on a team that’s trash he’s not going to move the needle all that much.

 

[NineOneSeven]

I think that’s pretty much a perfect way to put it and I think Draymond is pretty similar. He can be the missing piece to push a good or really good team to the next tier with his versatility. He’s so smart defensively and is skilled with the ball as a creator along with the type of toughness and cockiness you need to win. On the other hand if he’s on a team that’s trash he’s not going to move the needle all that much.

One of my buddies (MSU alum, clearly) said a couple years ago if Draymond was the guy on a team he could average 22/12/8. That was definitely something. Especially what we see now, albeit after some injuries.
Regardless... he was never, ever, ever going to be a 20ppg guy, regardless of team around him. Not his game. Not sure how we even got on that conversation, but Draymond is a pretty controversial player in our group chats. Same with Carmelo (some salty Knicks' fans).

 

[MikeSU02]

One of my buddies (MSU alum, clearly), said a couple years ago if Draymond was the guy on a team he could average 22/12/8. That was definitely something. Especially what we see now, albeit after some injuries.
Regardless... he was never, ever, ever going to be a 20ppg guy, regardless of team around him. Not his game. Not sure how we even got on that conversation, but Draymond is a pretty controversial player in our group chats. Same with Carmelo (some salty Knicks' fans).

I think it's fair to say that Draymond is great at being an accelerant to a team that has pieces that fit well. And what I mean by that is that at his peak, he was such an all around good player that you could use him as part PG, part defensive shut down guy, part stretch 5, etc. His energy, again - on a good team, can help be the soul of the team.

My opinion, is if you have all that on a team that is just a random compilation of parts (sort of like Detroit this year), I'm not sure how much he helps, even at his peak. Does he make them better? Of course. Does he make them *that* much better? Eh, Im not so sure.

Not to take anything from him, he's a winner.

 

[NineOneSeven]

I think it's fair to say that Draymond is great at being an accelerant to a team that has pieces that fit well. And what I mean by that is that at his peak, he was such an all around good player that you could use him as part PG, part defensive shut down guy, part stretch 5, etc. His energy, again - on a good team, can help be the soul of the team.

My opinion, is if you have all that on a team that is just a random compilation of parts (sort of like Detroit this year), I'm not sure how much he helps, even at his peak. Does he make them better? Of course. Does he make them *that* much better? Eh, Im not so sure.

Not to take anything from him, he's a winner.

Yep, he's built a much better career than I would have guessed. He also played a pretty big role in the 73 win Warriors team not finishing the job by getting suspended.

 

[MikeSU02]

Westbrook shouldn’t even be in these conversations. He’s never been too 5 in the league IMO. Steph on one leg torched Westbrook in games 6 and 7 of the 2016 WCF and that was the end of Durant in OKC.

I'm not saying he shouldn't have gotten his MVP, but he basically got the sympathy vote because he stayed in OKC.

I get the numbers (believe me, I have him on my fantasy team), but he should not be an MVP. I think Harden should have gotten it that year.

 

[Knicks411]

Westbrook shouldn’t even be in these conversations. He’s never been too 5 in the league IMO. Steph on one leg torched Westbrook in games 6 and 7 of the 2016 WCF and that was the end of Durant in OKC.

Yeah I hesitated to pick Russ, but his year in OKC where he got MVP kinda struck me as the ultimate floor raising season, he just did did everything for them.

Another name for this: Allen iverson. I think of the 2001 sixer team, he basically carried the entire scoring load. But not sure how well he works with another star

 

[Cusefan0307]

The Nets aren't exactly lighting the world on fire and now Durant is out for at least a week cause of Covid.

 

[Day2]

The Nets aren't exactly lighting the world on fire and now Durant is out for at least a week cause of Covid.

Just in time for my fantasy matchup against his owner.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Just in time for my fantasy matchup against his owner.

Yeah, that's me.

It's cool though, I picked up Deandre Hunter, so you're toast.

 

[Alsacs]

jncuse

 

[MikeSU02]

Knicks v Hawks, Mavs v Rockets and a lot of other fun matchups tonight.

Hope Trae is ready for #Knickstape to shut him down.

 

[OrangeDW]

Yeah, legacy wise Draymond isn't looking so good anymore. Nothing wrong with being the right guy/right place/right role player, but it looked at one time like he was more than that, and now it looks like the stars aligned perfectly for him and it's doubtful if he was anywhere else if he would have had any significant impact.

another guy people tried to elevate above Carmelo on here when he had a hot year and when the media made it cool and edgy to hate on Melo.

Joakim Noah. Jabari Parker. Lolsmh

 

[jncuse]

jncuse

Baynes has been a bit of a disaster early on compared to what we had. A real setback from Gasol (non bubble version) and Ibaka, but it was still a worthwhile calculated risk to preserve space for Giannis. Kyle relies heavily on the roll game and Baynes hands in tight space are not good. But it's early and hopefully he gets it.

1-4 right now... the only bright spot looking forward (negative I suppose) is that we could of won some of those games as we have blown 4 double digit leads. It's going to be a step back year, but how far down will it be. I'm not a "tanker" so hope we can turn it around. Depending how it goes the biggest development this year would probably be the trade of Kyle Lowry assuming he gives the go ahead. If the Sixers don't get Harden, the Philly Born Lowry would make a lot of sense for them. (Green + Scott + maybe Thybulle and First)

Raps finally hitting shots tonight -- not normal for them against the Celts.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

Knicks v Hawks, Mavs v Rockets and a lot of other fun matchups tonight.

Hope Trae is ready for #Knickstape to shut him down.

I watch a lot of Hawks games because of Kevin Huerter. Trae Young is a great talent. John Collins is a very good talent.

 

[jncuse]

Yeah, that's me.

It's cool though, I picked up Deandre Hunter, so you're toast.

Perhaps it's a different league. But I think you are taking on me. I know that Day2 and myself are easily confused given our interests in the Clippers.

 

[Day2]

Yeah, that's me.

It's cool though, I picked up Deandre Hunter, so you're toast.

Oh, I’m not in the board league.

 

[jncuse]

Fantasy wise anyway, Julius Randle is having a hell of a start to the season 21/10/7, 50% shooting from 3's on 4 attempts. Not sure if any of it actually really translates to wins on the floor but good for my fantasy team. His assists have never been close to this level (7 this year vs an average of about 3 for this career).

Having another big game tonight with 12/5/3 in the first quarter.

 

[jncuse]

Raptors seem to be well on their way to blowing another double digit lead.

I wonder if any NBA team in history has lost 5 of its first 6 games of the season when it lead the game by double digits in all 5 losses.