NCAA threatens to boot the whole state of California if bill becomes law

[NKR1978]

Why do some people act like athletes get “nothing”?

I don't think they get nothing, I just think they deserve the opportunity to get more.

 

[Alsacs]

I've read them before, it's not a plantation system.

The absence of choice/options on a plantation system, alone, makes any correlation moot and designed for shock. Again, compare it to other comparable historical situations, like any period of Industrialization. Otherwise, it's just shock value.

Why can coaches leave schools without having to sit out a year but athletes at football and basketball schools unless they get one of the minor exemptions not allowed to?

 

[RandomGuy]

Calling the system a "plantation system" is complete nonsense. It's absolutely lazy analysis.

Compare it to any period of Industrialization around the world and that makes a lot of sense. But referring to it in any way to the "plantation system" is absolutely ridiculous because the greatest factor between the two systems is choice and options.

Its straight from the former NCAA president.

Former NCAA Head Byers Says Athletes Should Be Paid

The longtime former head of the NCAA says it's time to end what he calls an outmoded system of amateurism in college sports and pay the athletes.

www.google.com

"And I attribute that to, quite frankly, to the neo-plantation mentality that exists on the campuses of our country and in the conference offices and in the NCAA. The coach owns the athlete's feet, the college owns the athlete's body and the athlete's mind is supposed to comprehend a rulebook that I challenge Dave Berst, who's sitting down in this audience, to explain in rational terms to you inside of eight hours."

He tried tearing down the model he built, because it was wrong.

 

[ForCuseSake]

But the apprentice makes money. And I bet the apprentice would get a bigger cut if she brought in a huge contract.

No, nearly all apprenticeships are clearly defined with infinite financial upside to the professional and limited financial gain for the apprentice.

The professional is taking on the additional expense and risk of training the apprentice and monitoring his/her development.

This is the model to develop trades/skills across virtually every sector of our economy.

Doctor's coming out of med school are rarely given full partnership when joining an existing practice.

Lawyers (obviously) are associates unless they hang their own shingle.

 

[NKR1978]

No, nearly all apprenticeships are clearly defined with infinite financial upside to the professional and limited financial gain for the apprentice.

The professional is taking on the additional expense and risk of training the apprentice and monitoring his/her development.

This is the model to develop trades/skills across virtually every sector of our economy.

Doctor's coming out of med school are rarely given full partnership when joining an existing practice.

Lawyers (obviously) are associates unless they hang their own shingle.

Yeah, but if an associate brings in a case they generally get a cut of the fee. At least in the PI world.

 

[ForCuseSake]

Yeah, but if an associate brings in a case they generally get a cut of the fee. At least in the PI world.

Understood.

There are unique scenarios across many sectors that allow young talent to monetize their skill set before it's fully developed.

But the vast majority of young talent, across all sectors, pays dues in the form of working longer hours, earning less pay, to develop their skill set and establish their career.

That's the primary point I was making regarding the research student's patent/university financial gain paradigm.

 

[Ghost]

Why can coaches leave schools without having to sit out a year but athletes at football and basketball schools unless they get one of the minor exemptions not allowed to?

Just a guess, but I would imagine at some point in time it had to do with academics. The student should be choosing his or her school with some serious contemplation about the education.

If they transfer, they're allowed to take classes, study, all of it, the important stuff. Or likely what was once considered important...but now, who cares, it's not about that for anyone involved in the transaction I suppose.

Anyway, the athletics, well, you likely didn't want a system of kids just going wherever PT is most plentiful...it incentivizes the wrong thing...because, of course, then they're just in school to be a free agent athlete.

Meanwhile, who the cares what coaches do? They're working adults.

 

[orangecuse]

This is exactly what I feel. This may hurt my team but I care more about free market and getting rid of restrictions to protect the ones making all the money.

If it hurts Syracuse that sucks but Syracuse is getting a good deal from the TV money and sponsorships they are getting.

In regards to the "ones making all the money" do they not take on "all" the risk? As others mentioned, these athletes get free tuition, room & board, food, stipends, state of the art facilities to enhance their bodies & craft, etc, whether they produce or not, at no cost to them, never having to worry about ever paying back a penny of it or the overhead involved. Moreover, and most importantly, it affords these athletes truly a once in a lifetime type amazing platform to showcase their talent on national TV, other countries, etc. for their futures.

If these athletes are being so wronged relative to their apparent likeness while at these schools, there are several other viable options for them as have been well documented. They are the ones that voluntarily signed on the dotted line and agreed to adhere to all of the stipulations within the agreement...100% their free will. They're the ones in breach.

 

[Alsacs]

Just a guess, but I would imagine at some point in time it had to do with academics. The student should be choosing his or her school with some serious contemplation about the education.

If they transfer, they're allowed to take classes, study, all of it, the important stuff. Or likely what was once considered important...but now, who cares, it's not about that for anyone involved in the transaction I suppose.

Anyway, the athletics, well, you likely didn't want a system of kids just going wherever PT is most plentiful...it incentivizes the wrong thing...because, of course, then they're just in school to be a free agent athlete.

Meanwhile, who the cares what coaches do? They're working adults.

If you transfer in football or basketball you have to sit out a year.
If you transfer in lacrosse, field hockey, soccer, any non revenue sport you don’t have to sit out a year.

The transfer rules are targeted at the revenue sports.

 

[upperdeck]

You could also argue that the same system exists in other sports like hockey/mlb for kids to skip College and go play for pay and they earn almost nothing, spend long hours, most of them dont go pro. by trying to push the college football/bball model down that road you may end up with no college sports and 99% of the kids never going to college at all and no degrees.

 

[NKR1978]

You could also argue that the same system exists in other sports like hockey/mlb for kids to skip College and go play for pay and they earn almost nothing, spend long hours, most of them dont go pro. by trying to push the college football/bball model down that road you may end up with no college sports and 99% of the kids never going to college at all and no degrees.

Or maybe more marginal kids will play college hockey and baseball due to the possible money involved.

 

[upperdeck]

Imagine I am a booster and I pay some kid 50K to go play at USC and he hates it and transfers to Minn.. do i get my money back? Its all taxable so they kid only got 35K and now owes me 50K? how does that all work?

 

[Ghost]

If you transfer in football or basketball you have to sit out a year.
If you transfer in lacrosse, field hockey, soccer, any non revenue sport you don’t have to sit out a year.

The transfer rules are targeted at the revenue sports.

Yeah, just guessing - perhaps to avoid the free agency aspect of it all then in revenue generating sports? Interesting. Has that always been the rule across the board? I'm intrigued by the difference, I wouldn't have guessed that was the case.

 

[NKR1978]

Imagine I am a booster and I pay some kid 50K to go play at USC and he hates it and transfers to Minn.. do i get my money back? Its all taxable so they kid only got 35K and now owes me 50K? how does that all work?

Sounds like the booster is out of luck. You're not paying them to attend. You're hiring then to market them. If the contract is for one appearance then the athlete met his burden.

And honestly, who cares if boosters get ripped off. The more that get screwed the more will wait to give money to juniors/seniors. Or not do it at all.

 

[NKR1978]

Yeah, just guessing - perhaps to avoid the free agency aspect of it all then in revenue generating sports? Interesting. Has that always been the rule across the board? I'm intrigued by the difference, I wouldn't have guessed that was the case.

There's no money involved in those sports so they don't care.

This came up in Pony Excess. A&M boosters bought a kid a car and he ended up going to SMU.

 

[Townie72]

Townie, the former president of the NCAA -the guy that coined the term student athlete- has said the NCAA has evolved into a "plantation system" His words. Nkr1978's comments are not without merit. I'll take the guys word who came up with this whole damn mess, that its broken.

As a free market capitalist, I believe that the market will most often come up with a solution. I dont know of another industry that completely relies on unpaid, talented workers, but we're not even talking about that.

I feel every argument against , is the fear that "my team" may not compete as well. While it may be true, I can't argue that position. I hope the NCAA/PA would institute policies where the have nots have a better chance to level the field. (Use of likeness revenue share to the have nots? Distributed across the team, as opposed to the few big earners?)

So you are a free market capitalist who wants to redistribute the money?

Sort of like “From each oaccording to their ability and to each according to their need”??? (Karl Marx)

Actually I do understand. In order for Alabama to be Alabama, they need Ole Miss and Vanderbilt to be healthy.

 

[NKR1978]

So you are a free market capitalist who wants to redistribute the money?

Sort of like “From each oaccording to their ability and to each according to their need”??? (Karl Marx)

Actually I do understand. In order for Alabama to be Alabama, they need Ole Miss and Vanderbilt to be healthy.

How is a bunch of rich guys voluntarily giving money to student athletes "redistribution"?

 

[CuseLegacy]

 

[Townie72]

How is a bunch of rich guys voluntarily giving money to student athletes "redistribution"?

Just a suggestion, but why don't you read what I was responding to first. Then it might be clearer to you.

Random guy wrote; "I hope the NCAA/PA would institute policies where the have nots have a better chance to level the field. (Use of likeness revenue share to the have nots? Distributed across the team, as opposed to the few big earners?

 

[RandomGuy]

So you are a free market capitalist who wants to redistribute the money?

Sort of like “From each oaccording to their ability and to each according to their need”??? (Karl Marx)

Actually I do understand. In order for Alabama to be Alabama, they need Ole Miss and Vanderbilt to be healthy.

Lol. I believe there will be winners and losers. I'm fine with that.

For those that aren't? Then a luxury tax/ cap type solution could exist. I can't put the good of all, above an individual right. For me, the current situation is the historical Marx result. Talent and worth ignored for the overall good of the oligarchy.

That suggestion was for those willing to put their teams competitiveness, above what many feel is the right thing to do.

 

[CousCuse]

The question is, will Syracuse be in the top division when the realignment happens.

 

[Alsacs]

The question is, will Syracuse be in the top division when the realignment happens.

 

[HtownOrange]

Yeah, but if an associate brings in a case they generally get a cut of the fee. At least in the PI world.

Even in your scenario, the law student may NOT get a cut, nor may a law clerk awaiting Bar results so he or she can start actually being a lawyer. Until they have the actual law license, they may not share in the revenue other than a stated hourly rate or salary. Bonuses may be paid as a general benefit but may not be tied to any particular cases (at least here in Texas). Thus, you are mandating that law students (who are also limited in the amount of time they may work jobs while attending full time as mandated by the Bar Association) be treated worse that a kid that merely has a physical gift to play sports.

The parallel to your scenario is that the student athlete is getting a fixed income (room, board, food, special diet, work out facilities, gear, stipend, all tax free making the whole deal worth approximately $100K/year) and must wait until they turn pro/leave school.

Also, concvenient points most on here are missing include:
1) The kids are signing a contract, they are not forced into sports by the schools
2) The kids can choose which school to attend
3) the kids can reject a school offer (in fact, most offers are rejected because most kids get multiple offers)
4) The kids' likeness is likely worth nothing without being associated with a team
5) Schools will sell jerseys, they can leave the name of the player off the jersey, no royalty paid to student
6) Schools can quit offering scholarships and these kids will not have this option as a means of showcasing their talents for the pros
7) Schools can drop the sports altogether (same issue as in 6)
8) Kids have other options besides college (this is limited in football, but it is still there)
9) Kids are prohibited from going pro out of HS, this has nothing to do with the NCAA, both the NBA and NFL set the age limits for their benefit - the reality is that most kids are not physically ready for either sport out of HS. There are exceptions, but too few for the NBA and NFL to make it worth their while. MLB does not care, they have the minor league system in place.
10) Schools do NOT make as much money as everyone thinks. Most schools lose money on their Athletic Departments. SU is blessed because they manage their resources well (in spite of some of our complaints, mine as well as others), but they are one of about 20 that runs in the black.
11) The talent pool for college level sports is far larger than the talent pool for the pro leagues. Elite talent in every industry gets paid more than general talent. The market already addresses this issue.
12) The tax issues have failed to be addressed. As a player's popularity becomes greater as he/she is associated with a certain school, the scholarship will likely be counted as income as it contributes to the earning power of the desired "likeness" deals. Without the school, the player's likeness is worthless. The IRS will take their share one way or the other and if they sniff a new argument to bring in new revenues, they will follow it.
13) The NCAA is a coalition of the schools to create an "even" playing field. Is it completely fair based on talent? No, no body claimed it was. However, the schools agreed to the set of rules as a means of ensuring some level of fairness and consistency, as corrupt as they are, the corruption is still far less than before the NCAA was in place. That said, the NCAA will do what the member schools direct it to do.
14) Title IX is real. It may not be ignored. Too many posters on hear are attempting to scheme around it (make players employees, increased stipends for hoops/football, etc., etc., etc.) but ignore the intent of the Feds in making Title IX.
15) It is extremely unlikely that any federal legislation that would in any manner appear that some athletes in revenue generating sports could get more benefits (stipend, pay, etc.) than other athletes will never see the light of day.
16) As noted elsewhere, schools are non-profits and reinvest in future generations of training students. They are multi-billion dollar entities and as non-profits, they reinvest their "profits". It costs a fortune to conduct research, without the research conducted at schools by students, we would not enjoy many of the advances we enjoy to date as compared to 50, 100, 150, 200 years ago.
17) Considering the last point, the measly $20MM profit the few schools make off of their athletics departments really is minimal. The ADs are designed to build comraderie of students, "advertise" the school, and have some fun. The investment is not as profitable as most imply.
18) Many posters liken the student to the coach while ignoring the coaching pool is much more specialized, has a lesser talent pool, and suffers all the pressure (they can be fired for failure, a school cannot withdraw a scholarship for poor play - Yes, athletic scholarships are not guaranteed for four years, they should be! - Thankfully, schools like SU generally only withdraw scholarships for academic or behavioral issues.
19) The argument that players do not get unemployment benefits and/or Workman's Compensation is not an issue. Students are NOT employees. Student athletes get full medical care, advanced care, in reality.

While I agree with you in principal (athletes should be able to make some money off their likenesses, but I feel no sorrow for the players as they are getting the equivalent of $100K/year which is more than most individuals will ever earn) individual states have no legal basis to invalidate the contract that the schools across the nation have made with each other nor to invalidate the contracts of the conferences and schools and everything else. The unintended consequences are not worth the risk when the parties were and are looking into the matter. I would rather the parties involved work this out rather than Congress, or California, or all 50 states.

 

[CousCuse]

View attachment 170942

That New York's college team campaign that DG engineered could pay a huge dividend.

 

[qdawgg]

Why can coaches leave schools without having to sit out a year but athletes at football and basketball schools unless they get one of the minor exemptions not allowed to?

how does that have anything to do with “plantation system” which is what my message you quoted is about.

Seriously, at least quote something I said that pertains to your question instead of just randomly jumping in with a comment that has zero to do with that particular conversation.