NFL Social Issues

[Melancer46]

Ever hear of sarcasm? Obviously nobody here said he was HOF worthy.

It's also an epic leap when you hear people say that CK is better than several current starting QBs in the NFL - which I've heard plenty of people say (not necessarily on this board). If he's so great then why did SF show no interest in retaining his services.

Presumably because they wanted to be bad this season.

At minimum, he's better than 6 starting QBs (including the guys starting due to injury right now): McCown, Kizer, Brissett, EJ Manuel, Matt Cassel, and Bortles. I'd argue that he's better at this point than Jay Cutler, Joe Flacco, Brian Hoyer, and Case Keenum as well, but those are at least debatable. And if you want to count Mike Glennon, Kaepernick is better than him too, and likely better than Trubisky will be as a rookie, but obviously that's TBD.

But yeah, I don't know how anyone could possibly disagree with the fact that he's better than a handful of current starting QBs. I think limiting it to just a handful is pretty harsh to him honestly.

Of course some of these have legitimate reasons why they went in another direction.
McCown - The Jets want to be bad so McCown helps them in that way more than Kaepernick would.
Kizer - Browns don't care if they're good right now; they want to see what they have in Kizer.
Brissett - I suppose you could argue that they want to see what they have in him.
Bortles - One last ditch effort to prove that he isn't the answer.
Flacco - Way too much money invested in him to bench him.
Cutler - Familiarity with and moderate success in Gase's system in the past.

 

[Melancer46]

That's not accurate. At the end of the regular season his senior year, Sam was projected anywhere from a late-first to a third round pick. His stock didn't drop until after he came out. Now he didn't have the greatest showing at the combine, but that's nothing new and I challenge you to find another player who went from a second/third rounder to a seventh rounder based on nothing more than the combine. (And he actually would have gone undrafted if not for Fisher wanting to make a statement.)

His preseason stats were solid. Two, even three years after his stint in the NFL was over, every player with the same number of sacks in that preseason was on a roster somewhere. Every other former SEC Defensive Player of the Year has been given numerous chances to succeed in the NFL. Sam's own college teammate, Kony Ealy, is still getting opportunities despite being considered a bust. (Going back to the early draft projections, there were debates over which of the two would get picked first.)

So even if you're right that he wasn't good enough, he didn't get much of a chance to prove otherwise and you would be hard-pressed to find another player that was treated the same way.

Do you have a source for this? Everywhere I looked had him listed as a 5th round pick at best and possibly undrafted before he had come out.

 

[Day2]

Do you have a source for this? Everywhere I looked had him listed as a 5th round pick at best and possibly undrafted before he had come out.

2014 NFL Draft Report; Full first-round mock draft unveiled … plus a few bonus second-rounders
Michael Sam vs. Kony Ealy: Which Mizzou DE is better prospect?

Now I'm obligated to ask you to provide a source that backs up your claim.

 

[bpo57]

If the baggage is the reason why teams aren't signing him, they should be transparent and admit it. I believe the Ravens are the only team to come clean so far...and that might have been after some digging by the media.

It's similar to the situation with Michael Sam. If you don't want the distraction, man up and explain your decision. Don't insult everyone's intelligence by claiming it's a football decision.

Fair point but how many have even claimed it's a football decision?

 

[Day2]

Fair point but how many have even claimed it's a football decision?

Isn't that assumed unless stated otherwise?

 

[Alsacs]

That's not accurate. At the end of the regular season his senior year, Sam was projected anywhere from a late-first to a third round pick. His stock didn't drop until after he came out. Now he didn't have the greatest showing at the combine, but that's nothing new and I challenge you to find another player who went from a second/third rounder to a seventh rounder based on nothing more than the combine. (And he actually would have gone undrafted if not for Fisher wanting to make a statement.)

His preseason stats were solid. Two, even three years after his stint in the NFL was over, every player with the same number of sacks in that preseason was on a roster somewhere. Every other former SEC Defensive Player of the Year has been given numerous chances to succeed in the NFL. Sam's own college teammate, Kony Ealy, is still getting opportunities despite being considered a bust. (Going back to the early draft projections, there were debates over which of the two would get picked first.)

So even if you're right that he wasn't good enough, he didn't get much of a chance to prove otherwise and you would be hard-pressed to find another player that was treated the same way.

Sam is too slow to play OLB.
He isn't big enough for DE.

His combine 40 killed him. 4.91 40 is not an NFL quality. He isn't being blackballed. In college that is fine not in the pros.

It's not being gay. If he could play he would be in the league.

 

[bpo57]

SF is a TERRIBLE organization right now. Let's leave out whatever they have done. From an economic standpoint alone they are stupid. In 2016, he was the top selling jersey in the league. That's usually enough to keep a guy around.

The name that immediately comes to mind is Mike Glennon. He's better than Glennon. Of course Chicago has realized this as well now so they've moved on. Let me think on this one some more.

I actually think SF is now headed in the right direction. They've built the makings of a very serious defensive line. Hopefully for them they can add a QB in next year's draft. They've been much more competitive this year than they were last year.

 

[bpo57]

Sam is too slow to play OLB.
He isn't big enough for DE.

His combine 40 killed him.

It's not being gay. If he could play he would be in the league.

This I agree with 100%. He was undersized and just not good enough to play in the NFL. Bad example.

 

[bpo57]

Yeah, just about every team in the league has at least one player who has taken a knee. So what are they blackballing him for? Because he started it? Some people like to say the players are playing a kid's game. Maybe we should start comparing the owners to children.

Because he's the face of the issue. Fans blame him, they don't blame some random guy who is kneeling with eight other guys. The Castro shirt and pig socks don't help the matter either.

 

[bpo57]

Jay Cutler is trash and CK would have been a better choice to fill in during the rehab.

Josh McCown? Kaep would give him a run.

Flacco, Kizer? I don't know. I think there are plenty of teams who should be looking his way right now. Especially after trump did his thing.

Kizer is a rookie. Flacco is flawed but very few people would take CK over him. McCown has already won more games this year than CK did last year. I don't like Cutler so I hear ya on that one.

 

[Alsacs]

Kaepernick is being blackballed.

Michael Sam came out prior to the draft but his teammates knew and NFL teams were aware.

Being gay isn't a big deal. There are problem a decent amount of gay players in the league.

 

[Day2]

Sam is too slow to play OLB.
He isn't big enough for DE.

His combine 40 killed him. 4.91 40 is not an NFL quality. He isn't being blackballed. In college that is fine not in the pros.

It's not being gay. If he could play he would be in the league.

He's basically the same size as Shane Ray (albeit not as fast) and was never given an opportunity to play LB, aside from a few snaps in the Senior Bowl.

Go ahead, find another player who was as decorated in college, who had similar success in the preseason, and who suffered the same fate. You can't. Any other player would be given numerous opportunities to prove your assessment wrong. That's all I'm saying.

 

[bpo57]

You know why. But he's better than Hoyer. And McCown. And Glennon (Trubisky wasn't the plan for this year). And most of the backup QBs in the league.

If you want to talk stats, I heard the other day that Kaep has the third-best interception rate in NFL history.

No I don't know why. They benched him last year before he ever took a knee. He knew he was on the outs. SF tried to trade him and received tepid interest.

 

[Day2]

Being gay isn't a big deal. There are problem a decent amount of gay players in the league.

And yet they're not out of the closet, which would indicate that it is indeed a big deal.

 

[bpo57]

Kaepernick is being blackballed.

Michael Sam came out prior to the draft but his teammates knew and NFL teams were aware.

Being gay isn't a big deal. There are problem a decent amount of gay players in the league.

It's not that he's being black-balled. There is no coordinated effort by NFL owners. NFL owners are being rational. They look at what CK brings to the table and then they consider fan-base unrest. They rationally decide it's not worth it. I think some of you guys need to go to a game and watch the fan reaction when these guys take a knee during the anthem. Half of the crowd goes gonzo. Happened in NE too if I'm not mistaken.

 

[bpo57]

He's basically the same size as Shane Ray (albeit not as fast) and was never given an opportunity to play LB, aside from a few snaps in the Senior Bowl.

Go ahead, find another player who was as decorated in college, who had similar success in the preseason, and who suffered the same fate. You can't. Any other player would be given numerous opportunities to prove your assessment wrong. That's all I'm saying.

Sam performed very poorly at the NFL Combine and it was pretty clear he did not have the speed to play LB and was too undersized to play DE. He was a very good college player. It happens. He went to the CFL, played one game and didn't record a tackle. Then quit. Sorry, he wasn't an NFL player.

 

[bpo57]

And yet they're not out of the closet, which would indicate that it is indeed a big deal.

I wouldn't deny that. You're probably right. But that doesn't make Sam an NFL player.

 

[Alsacs]

He's basically the same size as Shane Ray (albeit not as fast) and was never given an opportunity to play LB, aside from a few snaps in the Senior Bowl.

Go ahead, find another player who was as decorated in college, who had similar success in the preseason, and who suffered the same fate. You can't. Any other player would be given numerous opportunities to prove your assessment wrong. That's all I'm saying.

Shane Ray ran a 4.65 40 which is average LB speed.
He can play as a result.

Sam ran a 4.91 he can't defend RBs as a result. The guy needs to be an all world pass rusher for his 40 yard speed to play.

He is undersized as a result big tackles can handle him. Sam was a great college player but doesn't have pro speed.

 

[Alsacs]

It's not that he's being black-balled. There is no coordinated effort by NFL owners. NFL owners are being rational. They look at what CK brings to the table and then they consider fan-base unrest. They rationally decide it's not worth it. I think some of you guys need to go to a game and watch the fan reaction when these guys take a knee during the anthem. Half of the crowd goes gonzo. Happened in NE too if I'm not mistaken.

The crowds are basically Trump voters.

It's not suprising they are booing.
That is why the owners basically got the kneeling shut down last week.

Kap is being blackballed because owners are worried about fans and sponsors. If Kap was Tyrod Taylor level good owners would sign him.

Instead he is a fringe starter and teams don't want a distraction as their backup. They want the backup to not be seen or heard.

 

[bpo57]

Presumably because they wanted to be bad this season.

At minimum, he's better than 6 starting QBs (including the guys starting due to injury right now): McCown, Kizer, Brissett, EJ Manuel, Matt Cassel, and Bortles. I'd argue that he's better at this point than Jay Cutler, Joe Flacco, Brian Hoyer, and Case Keenum as well, but those are at least debatable. And if you want to count Mike Glennon, Kaepernick is better than him too, and likely better than Trubisky will be as a rookie, but obviously that's TBD.

But yeah, I don't know how anyone could possibly disagree with the fact that he's better than a handful of current starting QBs. I think limiting it to just a handful is pretty harsh to him honestly.

Of course some of these have legitimate reasons why they went in another direction.
McCown - The Jets want to be bad so McCown helps them in that way more than Kaepernick would.
Kizer - Browns don't care if they're good right now; they want to see what they have in Kizer.
Brissett - I suppose you could argue that they want to see what they have in him.
Bortles - One last ditch effort to prove that he isn't the answer.
Flacco - Way too much money invested in him to bench him.
Cutler - Familiarity with and moderate success in Gase's system in the past.

SF was bad last year with him. He won one game by one point. With a weak schedule.

I think you wildly overrate Kaepernick. He was benched for Blaine Gabbert before he ever took a knee. He's just not that good and he basically only fits a read-option system.

 

[Alsacs]

He's basically the same size as Shane Ray (albeit not as fast) and was never given an opportunity to play LB, aside from a few snaps in the Senior Bowl.

Go ahead, find another player who was as decorated in college, who had similar success in the preseason, and who suffered the same fate. You can't. Any other player would be given numerous opportunities to prove your assessment wrong. That's all I'm saying.

Jeremy Cash - Wikipedia

Jeremy Cash was ACC DPOY in 2015.

He was an all-American and not drafted.

This stuff happens.

 

[Day2]

Sam is too slow to play OLB.
He isn't big enough for DE.

His combine 40 killed him. 4.91 40 is not an NFL quality. He isn't being blackballed. In college that is fine not in the pros.

It's not being gay. If he could play he would be in the league.

Sam performed very poorly at the NFL Combine and it was pretty clear he did not have the speed to play LB and was too undersized to play DE. He was a very good college player. It happens. He went to the CFL, played one game and didn't record a tackle. Then quit. Sorry, he wasn't an NFL player.

Kony Ealy's 40 time at the combine was 4.92. He was a second round pick and is still in the NFL.

Sam's 40 time at the Mizzou pro day was 4.69. Another "motor" guy, Chris Long, was the second overall pick and his 40 time at the combine was 4.75. He was about an inch taller and ten pounds heavier than Sam coming out of Virginia.

Whether or not Sam was good enough is not the issue. The issue is that he didn't get a chance to prove otherwise. That's something you just don't see in the NFL with a former SEC Defensive Player of the Year.

 

[bpo57]

The crowds are basically Trump voters.

It's not suprising they are booing.
That is why the owners basically got the kneeling shut down last week.

Kap is being blackballed because owners are worried about fans and sponsors. If Kap was Tyrod Taylor level good owners would sign him.

Instead he is a fringe starter and teams don't want a distraction as their backup. They want the backup to not be seen or heard.

When you put it that way I guess we agree. To me the term blackball implies conspiracy. I don't think that is the case here.

 

[bpo57]

Kony Ealy's 40 time at the combine was 4.92. He was a second round pick and is still in the NFL.

Sam's 40 time at the Mizzou pro day was 4.69. Another "motor" guy, Chris Long, was the second overall pick and his 40 time at the combine was 4.75. He was about an inch taller and ten pounds heavier than Sam coming out of Virginia.

Whether or not Sam was good enough is not the issue. The issue is that he didn't get a chance to prove otherwise. That's something you just don't see in the NFL with a former SEC Defensive Player of the Year.

How do you explain his CFL experience? If he dominated there then maybe you'd have a point.

 

[Day2]

Jeremy Cash - Wikipedia

Jeremy Cash was ACC DPOY in 2015.

He was an all-American and not drafted.

This stuff happens.

There's a big difference between the SEC DPOY and the ACC DPOY. Even so, Cash went undrafted because he was dealing with multiple injuries. 20 teams tried to sign him after the draft. Apples and oranges.