No beef on DL

[CapitalO]

 

[ImperialOrange]

I agree that overall it’s on the offense and not the defense but as a follow up on the defense. We were good with Rosco, Black, Williams and Harper. None of those guys were 300. They ranged from 275 to 290. It’s my impression that is the desired weight range for the dline in this scheme. Would that be accurate? If so then it’s probably fair to say that if our largest dline player is 268 right now, that by the time the season starts we would want two to three guys in the 280 range? In my opinion thats not asking for 320 pounders, thats just asking for guys who fit the scheme?

If we could get 300 lb guys that move like 260 lb guys I'm sure the coaches would be about it. Think the fact the staff let Harper walk is telling about their design.

 

[ImperialOrange]

We certainly don't want immovable objects on the DL and require explosive guys in this scheme. I certainly don't think we need 300 lb guys in there but i would prefer at least 3 guys in the rotation over 270 lbs. I mean what happens if one or two get injured. I feel like maybe we could be optimal with 280 lbs in the middle and 265 lbs on one end and 255 lbs on the other end. But by looking at some of the weight changes it appears to me like the staff is thinking they don't really need any guys over 270 lbs and don't think they need to be as big at DE as we have been either. It appears they have had many guys drop weight on purpose. That many guys don't drop weight and it not be on purpose.

Geer down from 255 to 243, -12
Simmons down from 255 to 253, -2
Locket down from 265 to 264, -1
Linton down from 225 to 217, -8
Okechukwu from 265 to 269, +4
Darton down from 295 to 268m -27
McDonald down from 230 to 229, -1
Lockett down from 265 to 264, -1
Fuentes-Cundiff down from 275 to 266, -9

Darton down 27 lbs is pretty surprising. Thought he'd be the one guy on the roster they could go to for some beef. Fuentes-Cundiff dropping 9 and Geer dropping 12 are very shocking to me. Seemed they could be explosive at their previous weight and I thought they would both possibly gain weight. Guess the staff figures they will be more explosive and useful at a lighter weight. Linton dropping weight makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I don't see how he can be of any use at 217 lbs. But he has always seemed to struggled with adding bulk.

Interestingly enough though, two of our starting LB's have gained a lot of weight and are about the same weight as our DE's. Seems like we want a whole bunch of 240-265 lbs guys running around out there. Coaches must not be concerned at all about teams putting their big packages in and trying to power run on us. I guess they prefer more speed in hopes of it creating more big plays in the way of tackles for loss, sacks and turnovers? Hope it works out.

Thompson up from 235 to 247, +12
Wax up from 235 to 245, +10
Mikel Jones up from 220 to 225, +5

You just did the heavy lifting to point out the specific trends and thank you for that. I'm a numbers guy and these are all trends by design vs outliers. If you throw in players years in the program it appears our S & C staff is having players trim their "baby fat" prior to rebuilding them with grown man muscle. Our young DL could easily make the same type of good weight jumps that our LBs are currently making.

Linton is an outlier here, I don't think he's ever adding enough weight to start for us. We've seen this with football and basketball players prior... Simply cannot add weight despite efforts

 

[money3189]

If we could get 300 lb guys that move like 260 lb guys I'm sure the coaches would be about it. Think the fact the staff let Harper walk is telling about their design.

Exactly. Harper was passed by Lockett and Darton. He was not going to be the difference in stopping short yard plays.

 

[Cusefan69]

If we could get 300 lb guys that move like 260 lb guys I'm sure the coaches would be about it. Think the fact the staff let Harper walk is telling about their design.

Yeah if I remember correctly Harper was getting less run by the time the season ended though I think Darton was getting more and he was at 295. Either way it seems like the preference is for 275 to 300.

 

[TexanMark]

It is clear as day. I’ve said this since the day they installed the defense. Some just choose to ignore it.

It is hard not to...I mean I get it but...

3rd or 4th and short...when the opponent brings in the Jumbo package...my thinking is we want a few guys around the A gap close to 300lbs.

I realize with fast tempo you can't always get them in...

Is this just the trade off of the 3-3-5?

 

[kcsu]

I’m more surprised by that. He was suppose to be sliding back down to DL but he’s light for LB. I have no idea what the play is for him. Lol.

Strong safety

 

[money3189]

It is hard not to...I mean I get it but...

3rd or 4th and short...when the opponent brings in the Jumbo package...my thinking is we want a few guys around the A gap close to 300lbs.

I realize with fast tempo you can't always get them in...

Is this just the trade off of the 3-3-5?

Those were my thoughts as well but Ive noticed White runs his base defense no matter where they are at on the field. So I dont know how much that will help them overall. He is going to live and die with it. If you get their fast, and bring more guys to the point of attack you can be just as effective. I like to compare it to a faster and more athletic basketball team that runs a full court press. Trapping and forcing turnovers. They want to get up and down the court instead of playing a half court team that is bigger than them. It doesnt mean you are always going to be successful but that's with any scheme.

 

[money3189]

that. I'm a numbers guy and these are all trends by design vs outliers. If you throw in players years in the program it appears our S & C staff is having players trim their "baby fat" prior to rebuilding them with grown man muscle. Our young DL could easily make the same type of good weight jumps that our LBs are currently making.

Bingo. Its by design

 

[TexanMark]

Makes sense Money,

With Linton: maybe they realize he won't get to 260 and he'll be a situational or hybrid guy. Goals like 223-225 by August...and 235-240 by his RS-Sr year seem reasonable using natural nutrition.

 

[money3189]

Makes sense Money,

With Linton: maybe they realize he won't get to 260 and he'll be a situational or hybrid guy. Goals like 223-225 by August...and 235-240 by his RS-Sr year seem reasonable using natural nutrition.

That's a good point.

 

[sutomcat]

Some general comments on this topic...

We didn't talk much about it on the board but our best DL last season was Cody Roscoe. He mentioned in an article with the DO that a big difference between 2020 and 2021, where he suddently emerged into an all conference DE, was that he lost 10 pounds between the seasons.

From 2-star to ACC sack leader: Cody Roscoe’s growth at defensive end

Cody Roscoe was playing in the FCS at McNeese State two years ago, but has changed his body to become one of the top defensive ends in the country.

w.dailyorange.com

...
Roscoe also matched his body to the new defense, he said. Last year he thought he had to be “really heavy” to play in the 3-3-5 defense, and was around 268 pounds — the heaviest he had ever been in his life, he said.

“After the season I just told myself I didn’t wanna be at that point ever again,” Roscoe said. “I wanted to get back down to a comfortable weight that I feel like I can fly around and just be chaotic when I’m on the field.”

Now, Roscoe said he is about 10 pounds lighter, and he’s changed his eating habits and focused more on flexibility. He worked with his trainer at home on single leg exercises so he could change directions quickly and become more explosive.

The results have shown for Roscoe through nine games. Last year, he had just two sacks and 20 tackles in 11 games. This year, he already has 39 tackles and eight sacks. On Saturday against Boston College, he had one of his strongest games of the season, recording five tackles and splitting a sack with Kingsley Jonathan.

When his mom told him that he was named a midseason All-American two weeks ago, Roscoe responded with, “What are you talking about?” The player who barely cracked the top-3,000 players in his class four years ago didn’t know the midseason honor existed. But now, it’s just another step on his road to proving he can be “as good as anybody in the country.”
...

I bet the staff went over film with the returning DL and a recurring theme was that they needed to get quicker; more agile. Darton is one of the strongest guys on the team but he was carrying 30 pounds of fat around out there last season. That has to affect your quickness and athletic ability. He has transformed his body and I bet he is as strong or stronger that he was last season. The same applies to a lesser extent to other players. You have to be able to out quick the OL and cause havoc to be successful with the 3-3-5.

I am not really worried with the weights of the players we have now. But I would like to have a couple more bodies in the 260-270 range on the roster for depth purposes. Hope we are able to add one or two from the portal soon.

 

[CbusCuse]

Some general comments on this topic...

We didn't talk much about it on the board but our best DL last season was Cody Roscoe. He mentioned in an article with the DO that a big difference between 2020 and 2021, where he suddently emerged into an all conference DE, was that he lost 10 pounds between the seasons.

From 2-star to ACC sack leader: Cody Roscoe’s growth at defensive end

Cody Roscoe was playing in the FCS at McNeese State two years ago, but has changed his body to become one of the top defensive ends in the country.

w.dailyorange.com

...
Roscoe also matched his body to the new defense, he said. Last year he thought he had to be “really heavy” to play in the 3-3-5 defense, and was around 268 pounds — the heaviest he had ever been in his life, he said.

“After the season I just told myself I didn’t wanna be at that point ever again,” Roscoe said. “I wanted to get back down to a comfortable weight that I feel like I can fly around and just be chaotic when I’m on the field.”

Now, Roscoe said he is about 10 pounds lighter, and he’s changed his eating habits and focused more on flexibility. He worked with his trainer at home on single leg exercises so he could change directions quickly and become more explosive.

The results have shown for Roscoe through nine games. Last year, he had just two sacks and 20 tackles in 11 games. This year, he already has 39 tackles and eight sacks. On Saturday against Boston College, he had one of his strongest games of the season, recording five tackles and splitting a sack with Kingsley Jonathan.

When his mom told him that he was named a midseason All-American two weeks ago, Roscoe responded with, “What are you talking about?” The player who barely cracked the top-3,000 players in his class four years ago didn’t know the midseason honor existed. But now, it’s just another step on his road to proving he can be “as good as anybody in the country.”
...

I bet the staff went over film with the returning DL and a recurring theme was that they needed to get quicker; more agile. Darton is one of the strongest guys on the team but he was carrying 30 pounds of fat around out there last season. That has to affect your quickness and athletic ability. He has transformed his body and I bet he is as strong or stronger that he was last season. The same applies to a lesser extent to other players. You have to be able to out quick the OL and cause havoc to be successful with the 3-3-5.

I am not really worried with the weights of the players we have now. But I would like to have a couple more bodies in the 260-270 range on the roster for depth purposes. Hope we are able to add one or two from the portal soon.

Well that article explains a lot if true. I kind of always though Roscoe's size, power and speed last year seemed kind of prototypical for productivity in our system. Very interesting that he was listed on the roster at 275 lbs but he says his heaviest weight was 268 lbs and that was before the season.. So he actually played quite a bit less than that last year at probably around 260 lbs. That makes me feel a bit better. I assume our guys will gain a little bit back both at the DE and DT positions. But we definitely need a bit more depth.

 

[richard levy]

It’s amazing how many people assume big is better. It’s a 80’s mindset. Players don’t wear neck collars and just play between the tackles anymore. Schemes change and players are BFS. This defense gives opposing offensive line fits. Very hard to block faster athletic DE’s and LB’s. If the O lineman have bad feet they are dead meat. People want unique but then complain about the defense.

Somebody needs to tell this to the SEC and Big Ten.

 

[money3189]

Somebody needs to tell this to the SEC and Big Ten.

Tell what?

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

Somebody needs to tell this to the SEC and Big Ten.

You unwittingly just pointed out why Syracuse is taking this approach.

6'5" 300 pound DLs who are quick are, perhaps, the biggest unicorns in a sport filled with genetic freaks. They are so few and so valued, they end up at Georgia, Alabama, and Ohio State. Because that's the way recruiting works right now.

Those guys aren't looking at Syracuse, and because the coaching staff here values quickness on the DL, they've had to adapt to a scheme that works the best it can with smaller guys.

 

[kcsu]

If you look at the rosters of some of the other 335 schools they all seem to have some big DL guys

 

[JRHEETER]

If you look at the rosters of some of the other 335 schools they all seem to have some big DL guys

Sorry. That’s not our scheme here at Syracuse.

Tony White clearly doesn’t want those massive guys and honestly, at this point, Tony White has earned my trust.

He has built a very good defensive machine…if we can at least get a halfway decent offensive production, this defense would be even better.

We lost many games because they spent too much time on the field by the 4th quarter and were gassed.

 

[richard levy]

Tell what?

That, the top 20-30, or more, teams in the country don’t subscribe to that theory. And is fantasy to think that we will ever become one of those teams until we can recruit bigger DL’s. If you look at the 18 offers for DL’s on 247, half of them already are listed at over 275lbs, one at over 300. Don’t think that if SU get them, we wouldn’t take them.The Roscoes are outliers.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Miss St runs a 3-3-5 and they have plenty of guys between 280-305. I just think it comes down to recruiting limitations and also that Tony White prefers smaller quicker D Line

 

[money3189]

That, the top 20-30, or more, teams in the country don’t subscribe to that theory. And is fantasy to think that we will ever become one of those teams until we can recruit bigger DL’s. If you look at the 18 offers for DL’s on 247, half of them already are listed at over 275lbs, one at over 300. Don’t think that if SU get them, we wouldn’t take them.The Roscoes are outliers.

When did I ever say the scheme is full proof? No scheme is. Each scheme present certain challenges and I was simply telling people what the 3–3-5 does. I run it myself. It still comes down to fundamentals and discipline no matter what scheme you run. SU is not recruiting 300 pound DT’s. And they are certainly not getting ones that can run 4.8 40’s like the SEC has. Look at SU’s roster. Do you not see DLineman weights? How is that a theory? Lol

 

[money3189]

Sorry. That’s not our scheme here at Syracuse.

Tony White clearly doesn’t want those massive guys and honestly, at this point, Tony White has earned my trust.

He has built a very good defensive machine…if we can at least get a halfway decent offensive production, this defense would be even better.

We lost many games because they spent too much time on the field by the 4th quarter and were gassed.

White is sticking to the San Diego st model. Where it was mastered. They were a very good run stopping defense for years. I’ll take the 26th ranked defense any day. When was the last time SU's defense was ranked that high?

 

[Newhouser]

White is sticking to the San Diego st model. Where it was mastered. They were a very good run stopping defense for years. I’ll take the 26th ranked defense any day. When was the last time the defense was ranked that high?

Rankings can be skewed a bit. I think our D is better since White got here for sure, but the numbers had to be helped by playing Ohio, Albany, Rutgers and BC with a Frosh QB. My concern is ACC teams, most of whom went for over 30 and some even 40 on us. The lack of offense contributed for sure but the D still needs to get better, and I don't care what the ranking says they were not the 26th best defense in the country last year.

 

[GoSU96]

Makes sense Money,

With Linton: maybe they realize he won't get to 260 and he'll be a situational or hybrid guy. Goals like 223-225 by August...and 235-240 by his RS-Sr year seem reasonable using natural nutrition.

Kid makes plays

 

[money3189]

Rankings can be skewed a bit. I think our D is better since White got here for sure, but the numbers had to be helped by playing Ohio, Albany, Rutgers and BC with a Frosh QB. My concern is ACC teams, most of whom went for over 30 and some even 40 on us. The lack of offense contributed for sure but the D still needs to get better, and I don't care what the ranking says they were not the 26th best defense in the country last year.

Wouldnt you take better than worse? You think SU is the only team that play some lesser opponents? The defense was one of the most productive units in the Acc.