One or the Other... | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

One or the Other...

That would a complete misnomar.

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CanadianSU said:
Your last sentence sums it up dude. That is simply Embarrising in a game in which 6-6 gets you a bowl, the program needs to Figure it out. Syracuse is better than what they have been showing the last ten years. 6-6 is a must. Not like I'm expecting an ACC title here.

Yeah, it sucks, no one disagrees. My question is why are you ranting that THIS is the make or break year? What if we go 5-7? Do we close down the program? Sell the Dome to a German conglomerate? I don't get why you've drawn this line in the sand.
 
Shafer has a 5 year contract. He's in year #3.

Barring a complete failure (2-10 or worse), he's getting year #4.

He doesn't need to be extended right this minute.
I would love to hear why it takes 2-10 and no year 4.
If there is no extension and we go 4-8 what is the difference. We have 2 automatic wins on the schedule URI and CMU. We should feel good about beating WF at home. Splitting USF/UVA seems very possible. That is 4 wins. If losing to the rest is getting this staff year 4 we have low standards.

I could see 4-8 or 5-7 being given as the line drawn even for year four though I personally would have it at 6-6.
 
Why don't you let Coyle watch his first SU football game before requiring him to make fire-or-extend decisions on HCSS?

It would take a lot for SS not to be back in 2016. I would hate to have to live through that. Having meaningful games in weeks 11 & 12 would be a step forward from 2014. Is it where SU football needs to be? No... but it would be a step forward.

I like the recruiting classes and would like some stability as these athletes show their skills on the field.
 
Why don't you let Coyle watch his first SU football game before requiring him to make fire-or-extend decisions on HCSS?

It would take a lot for SS not to be back in 2016. I would hate to have to live through that. Having meaningful games in weeks 11 & 12 would be a step forward from 2014. Is it where SU football needs to be? No... but it would be a step forward.

I like the recruiting classes and would like some stability as these athletes show their skills on the field.
First, off he isn't firing SS before the season. That would have been the previous AD and I think now in retrospect nothing could have happened last year short of scandal(which wouldn't happen) would have allowed the Administration to let the AD make a move.

Second, my position while unpopular with you and some others while not something you agree with is not crazy. I hate when people's opinions are swayed by who is saying it rather than what they say. You may not like me and that is fine, but I am somebody who knows what they are talking about and you may not like my style it is fair.

My point to OrangeXtreme was simple if the bar is 2-10 and SS is back that is way too low. If the bar is 4-8 or 5-7 I can atleast while disagreeing with that understand that. You said it fairly having meaningful games in week 11 and 12 that would in theory suggest 4 or 5 wins. I think we will win 5 games this year.

If somebody said 5 games and give him a 4th year okay while I disagree I can understand that. When the bar is 2-10 sorry that has to be discussed IMO because we are not expecting SS to go 3-9 and say he is getting year 4 and not expect major frustration.

Our recruiting has been slightly better but questioning this staff is not unreasonable. If I were questioning Jim Boeheim I could understand people in arms we are talking about Scott Shafer.
 
Alsacs said:
First, off he isn't firing SS before the season. That would have been the previous AD and I think now in retrospect nothing could have happened last year short of scandal(which wouldn't happen) would have allowed the Administration to let the AD make a move. Second, my position while unpopular with you and some others while not something you agree with is not crazy. I hate when people's opinions are swayed by who is saying it rather than what they say. You may not like me and that is fine, but I am somebody who knows what they are talking about and you may not like my style it is fair. My point to OrangeXtreme was simple if the bar is 2-10 and SS is back that is way too low. If the bar is 4-8 or 5-7 I can atleast while disagreeing with that understand that. You said it fairly having meaningful games in week 11 and 12 that would in theory suggest 4 or 5 wins. I think we will win 5 games this year. If somebody said 5 games and give him a 4th year okay while I disagree I can understand that. When the bar is 2-10 sorry that has to be discussed IMO because we are not expecting SS to go 3-9 and say he is getting year 4 and not expect major frustration. Our recruiting has been slightly better but questioning this staff is not unreasonable. If I were questioning Jim Boeheim I could understand people in arms we are talking about Scott Shafer.

I think he gets 4th year no matter what ($ buyout)... And to expect Coyle to extend him before this season is bonkers. The real question is: what does Coyle need to see in year 3 to give him an extension next summer?

This idea that recruiting it slightly better is crazy talk. It's way better than Marrones classes. How much of that is this staff and how much is the IPF, ACC, and Unis (I kid, I kid) - is debatable.
 
I honestly don't know how you can't give a college coach who took over a program that was in very bad shape 4 years. Hell they give NFL coaches generally 3 years to rebuild and you have free agency. This seems exceptionally harder to recruit to get better.
 
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SUfanNC said:
I honestly don't know how you can't give a college coach who took over a program that was is very bad shape 4 years. Hell they give NFL coaches generally 3 years to rebuild and you have free agency. This seems exceptionally harder to recruit to get better.

This. If you are recruiting better (we are) then barring disaster, Shafer deserves to have those guys as the core of his team as JR/SR's.
 
Yeah, it sucks, no one disagrees. My question is why are you ranting that THIS is the make or break year? What if we go 5-7? Do we close down the program? Sell the Dome to a German conglomerate? I don't get why you've drawn this line in the sand.
I wana win !
 
If only our coaches had that same attitude. Clearly, that's the problem.
They didn't play like they wanted to win vs Clemson or ND. A competent Offense takes both those games, especially when Golson was tossin picks left right and center.

But I get the sarcasm.
 
I honestly don't know how you can't give a college coach who took over a program that was in very bad shape 4 years. Hell they give NFL coaches generally 3 years to rebuild and you have free agency. This seems exceptionally harder to recruit to get better.
Our program was not a rebuild or in bad shape in January 2013. I don't think SS took over a program that was full of talent, but this narrative it was in bad shape or a rebuild is not accurate. In January 2013 our job was good enough that if we wanted to do a national search we could have if we wanted to do so could resulted in a better HC than SS. SS was hired to continue the momentum of DM era.

If last year wasn't a Gerg type season then this staff would have patience. However, last year doesn't go away and as a result this year is scary. If the bar for this staff is not another 2-10/3-9 to get a year four that is wrong.

I laid my position why if the bar is atleast 5-7 I can understand that is an improvement on 2014 even though I personally wouldn't find it enough. Nobody has a clue what the AD thinks and that is the only opinion that matters.
 
Our program was not a rebuild or in bad shape in January 2013. I don't think SS took over a program that was full of talent, but this narrative it was in bad shape or a rebuild is not accurate. In January 2013 our job was good enough that if we wanted to do a national search we could have if we wanted to do so could resulted in a better HC than SS. SS was hired to continue the momentum of DM era.

If last year wasn't a Gerg type season then this staff would have patience. However, last year doesn't go away and as a result this year is scary. If the bar for this staff is not another 2-10/3-9 to get a year four that is wrong.

I laid my position why if the bar is atleast 5-7 I can understand that is an improvement on 2014 even though I personally wouldn't find it enough. Nobody has a clue what the AD thinks and that is the only opinion that matters.
Well, I do think we have SOME clue about what Coyle thinks. He specifically mentioned watching the program at Kentucky, and how it struggled mightily for the first couple of years, but the AD believed in the coach and let him take a few lumps. Obviously, we don't know how Coyle feels about Shafer, that much is true. But I do find it interesting that he talked about that situation, since it's obviously got some similarities to what Shafer is facing this season.
 
Our program was not a rebuild or in bad shape in January 2013. I don't think SS took over a program that was full of talent, but this narrative it was in bad shape or a rebuild is not accurate. In January 2013 our job was good enough that if we wanted to do a national search we could have if we wanted to do so could resulted in a better HC than SS. SS was hired to continue the momentum of DM era.

If last year wasn't a Gerg type season then this staff would have patience. However, last year doesn't go away and as a result this year is scary. If the bar for this staff is not another 2-10/3-9 to get a year four that is wrong.

I laid my position why if the bar is atleast 5-7 I can understand that is an improvement on 2014 even though I personally wouldn't find it enough. Nobody has a clue what the AD thinks and that is the only opinion that matters.

I disagree with how the program was left for SS. We have been rebuilding since Gerg left. DM had the program moving in the right direction but I don't think he was getting enough depth. The main position that was bare is the QB which plays a major factor. SS and company have been doing nicely on the recruiting trail. I think this will start to translate.

It is undeniable that there are many factors that go into last year. Some of it being at the hands of SS and some out of his control. Fact is that there is no way a college coach coming into SS situation should not be given 4 years. If he wasn't getting the recruits he is I would be more concerned. I want to see improvement but it can't lay 15 years of frustration on SS.
 
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CanadianSU said:
I wana win !

It looks to me that you want validation from this board to quit being a fan. If you can't get excited, why bother? Find something else to do that excites you. Life is too short to spend your free time on something that saps passion.
Maybe you're just having the summer blahs and you will get the excitement back in August. If not, I would recommend searching for a new hobby. I'm not being snarky, either. I believe this.
 
I disagree with how the program was let for SS. We have been rebuilding since Gerg left. DM had the program moving in the right direction but I don't think he was getting enough depth. The main position that was bare is the QB which plays a major factor. SS and company have been doing nicely on the recruiting trail. I think this will start to translate.

It is undeniable that there are many factors that go into last year. Some of it being at the hands of SS and some out of his control. Fact is that there is no way a college coach coming into SS situation should not be given 4 years. If he wasn't getting the recruits he is I would be more concerned. I want to see improvement but it can't lay 15 years of frustration on SS.
The program left in January 2013 was in a way better than position than it was in December 2008. 25-25 is the definition of mediocrity but that is significantly better than 10-37.

SS hit the jackpot when he got the HC job after DM left. He wasn't on the radar of any P5 teams to become a HC and he got a P5 job. I would agree the QB was not stocked when DM left but Hunt is atleast somebody who looks like he can play.

I can say that injuries were tough last year and hurt the team. However, what excuse do we have for the Villanova game which was a major red flag last year. Our team was outplayed by Villanova. Hunt was incredibly stupid in that game and was ejected but we should have been able to win that game without Hunt. Our D was shredded by Nova's QB.

Nobody in their right mind would lay 15 years of frustration on SS. However, it is reasonable to question his coaching when we have been blown out more times in 2 years than we did the previous 4 years and our offense has looked bad for 2 years against P5 competition.

The bar for this staff getting a 4th year shouldn't be well we can't go 2-10 that is BS. The bar should be much higher and I am not saying you said can't go 2-10.
 
Alsacs said:
Our program was not a rebuild or in bad shape in January 2013. I don't think SS took over a program that was full of talent, but this narrative it was in bad shape or a rebuild is not accurate. In January 2013 our job was good enough that if we wanted to do a national search we could have if we wanted to do so could resulted in a better HC than SS. SS was hired to continue the momentum of DM era. If last year wasn't a Gerg type season then this staff would have patience. However, last year doesn't go away and as a result this year is scary. If the bar for this staff is not another 2-10/3-9 to get a year four that is wrong. I laid my position why if the bar is atleast 5-7 I can understand that is an improvement on 2014 even though I personally wouldn't find it enough. Nobody has a clue what the AD thinks and that is the only opinion that matters.

No need to rehash the whole argument - but your contention that it wasn't a rebuild is not sound.

The defense transitioned just fine. The offense lost every coach but one and it's NFL bound QB and two very good offensive recruits (Edwards and Z.Allen).

Hackett was running a system that he effectively made-up - so finding any kind of consistency there - was lost the moment Marrone took Hackett to Buff.

Shafer 'ed up by bringing in Mcit. He had a decent idea in that the guy had a great rep as a top tier recruiter.

So it was very much a rebuild on the offensive side. That we made it to and won the Texas bowl - is a testament to someone telling Mcit that we had an NFL payer on the line, a huge back in Jerome, and a QB who could run a bit.
 
Alsacs said:
The program left in January 2013 was in a way better than position than it was in December 2008. 25-25 is the definition of mediocrity but that is significantly better than 10-37. SS hit the jackpot when he got the HC job after DM left. He wasn't on the radar of any P5 teams to become a HC and he got a P5 job. I would agree the QB was not stocked when DM left but Hunt is atleast somebody who looks like he can play. I can say that injuries were tough last year and hurt the team. However, what excuse do we have for the Villanova game which was a major red flag last year. Our team was outplayed by Villanova. Hunt was incredibly stupid in that game and was ejected but we should have been able to win that game without Hunt. Our D was shredded by Nova's QB. Nobody in their right mind would lay 15 years of frustration on SS. However, it is reasonable to question his coaching when we have been blown out more times in 2 years than we did the previous 4 years and our offense has looked bad for 2 years against P5 competition. The bar for this staff getting a 4th year shouldn't be well we can't go 2-10 that is BS. The bar should be much higher and I am not saying you said can't go 2-10.

The argument wasn't where the program was in 2013 vs 2008. It's about what the offense looked like in 2013 > 2014.

Shafer took a horrible chance on Mcit and owns that decision.

Blow outs with Shafer vs loses vs bad/mediocre teams with Marrone? Name the team that we were favored over the last two years that we lost?
 
The program left in January 2013 was in a way better than position than it was in December 2008. 25-25 is the definition of mediocrity but that is significantly better than 10-37.

SS hit the jackpot when he got the HC job after DM left. He wasn't on the radar of any P5 teams to become a HC and he got a P5 job. I would agree the QB was not stocked when DM left but Hunt is atleast somebody who looks like he can play.

I can say that injuries were tough last year and hurt the team. However, what excuse do we have for the Villanova game which was a major red flag last year. Our team was outplayed by Villanova. Hunt was incredibly stupid in that game and was ejected but we should have been able to win that game without Hunt. Our D was shredded by Nova's QB.

Nobody in their right mind would lay 15 years of frustration on SS. However, it is reasonable to question his coaching when we have been blown out more times in 2 years than we did the previous 4 years and our offense has looked bad for 2 years against P5 competition.

The bar for this staff getting a 4th year shouldn't be well we can't go 2-10 that is BS. The bar should be much higher and I am not saying you said can't go 2-10.


Precisely. Marrone had this team on the upswing. We were a dangerous team at the end of 2013. Any reasonable person would consider us back on the upswing. The job wasn't done but SS inherited something 100x better than the pile of crap DM inherited.

Based on all of that, certainly Shafer is coaching for his job this year. I'm not sure how anyone could see it differently. I have no line in the sand number either. If we start off 5-1 and lose the remainder of games badly (shades of 93) vs start 1-5 and then win 4 of 6 to end the season (in ACC Play) those two things to me would look differently to me in terms of retaining SS.

Let's just hope we play competitive football, get to a bowl game and this becomes moot. Syracuse is in a big boy league now so the expectations from my end are not the glory days of 88-98. But certainly a winning record yearly is achievable considering what our peers have done recently.
 
It looks to me that you want validation from this board to quit being a fan. If you can't get excited, why bother? Find something else to do that excites you. Life is too short to spend your free time on something that saps passion.
Maybe you're just having the summer blahs and you will get the excitement back in August. If not, I would recommend searching for a new hobby. I'm not being snarky, either. I believe this.

I'm excited every year for this team. I'm in bed with Syracuse football however it goes. Not sure how anyone can just jump on and off based on results. I guess that's the deal with the devil of being an alum. I divorced my feelings for BC the moment I decided to go to SU and now will root them on no matter how dire. When they do turn it around for that one shining moment it'll be that much more enjoyable.
 
No need to rehash the whole argument - but your contention that it wasn't a rebuild is not sound.

The defense transitioned just fine. The offense lost every coach but one and it's NFL bound QB and two very good offensive recruits (Edwards and Z.Allen).

Hackett was running a system that he effectively made-up - so finding any kind of consistency there - was lost the moment Marrone took Hackett to Buff.

Shafer 'ed up by bringing in Mc. . . . it. He had a decent idea in that the guy had a great rep as a top tier recruiter.

So it was very much a rebuild on the offensive side. That we made it to and won the Texas bowl - is a testament to someone telling Mc. . . . it that we had an NFL payer on the line, a huge back in Jerome, and a QB who could run a bit.
Honest question do you feel the need or urge to respond to every one of my posts?

College Football circa 2013 is a game that favors the offense. McDonald was a bad coach but we won games in 2013 on using the strength of the team in having a power run game.

I don't care if the cupboard was stock full or not the program SS was hired to be the HC was not in rebuild mode. There was talent on the roster and while I would say there were no proven QBs the program wasn't in a state of shock. It has gone .500 for four years after being a laughing stock.

The idea we as a fanbase thought we were going to take one step back to take two steps forward that is not accurate and if your honest you would admit that.
 
The argument wasn't where the program was in 2013 vs 2008. It's about what the offense looked like in 2013 > 2014.

Shafer took a horrible chance on Mc. . . . it and owns that decision.

Blow outs with Shafer vs loses vs bad/mediocre teams with Marrone? Name the team that we were favored over the last two years that we lost?
We were favored at home vs. Maryland last year. In 2013 the coaching staff embraced what it had and abandoned what they wanted to do and guess what we were lucky to win some games. In 2014 we didn't use our talent correctly on offense. There is no reason the staff should have been as poor as it was and that falls on the HC. He owned it and replaced the OC well guess what this year you gotta do more than just not go 2-10 to get a 4th year.
 

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