Oshae Brissett: | Page 33 | Syracusefan.com

Oshae Brissett:

theres a difference...but what do you think would happen if he sat for a year?

I think he would sign a big fat contract afterwards...that would make his salary for the upcoming season immaterial...

do you think he wouldnt? do you think hed be "cancelled" by the NBA?
He needs a big season to sign a big contract. He’s just trying to establish himself as a long term player right now. You think someone would want to sign him to a big contract if he sits out a full year after scoring 9 points a game the year before? Not a chance.
 
He needs a big season to sign a big contract. He’s just trying to establish himself as a long term player right now. You think someone would want to sign him to a big contract if he sits out a full year after scoring 9 points a game the year before? Not a chance.
big compared to what hes on now? yes. a small NBA contract is big to what he's on now. big compared to russell westbrick and john wall? no.

hes already established as an NBA player...I cant beleive that people dont see that. at least give him that much.
 
TJ Warren was a 1st round pick and thus received a guaranteed contract. He performed well relative to his draft slot and received a solid second contract. He has achieved significantly more than Obrissy in the NBA.

Brissett was undrafted and had an exhibit 10 contract and 2 way contract to start his career, but mostly had to grind things out in the minor leagues (not unlike HOFCeluck 's mom) before getting a couple 10-day contracts with the Pacers that he really made the most of. He wasn't in a particularly strong bargaining position and basically got a guaranteed 2 year deal because it's such a no-brainer for the Pacers to pick up the 2nd year option.
i understand most of the ridiculous and convoluted machinations of how money is allotted in the NBA.

i understand how all players are viewed through the pyramid shaped lens that the overall NBA salary structure is...I just dont buy into it.

I get it that Oshae had as little leverage as one can possibly have in terms of signing a multi-year deal in the NBA...he probably signed that contract with his hands tied behind his back, basically.

when i look at players like ben simmons kyrie zion kawhi etc and how they are disrespcting the league that pays them basically...they are all making a mockery of the sport with their commitment to play...and then players oike john wall on 44million being paid to not play etc...

when I then read people saying how oshae just needs to put his head down and accept his lowly status and be stoic...i dont like it and i dont agree.

it smacks of elitism and this idea that successful people are better than the rest of us and that we should accept our low spot on the totem pole and be grateful and that only the upper crust of the world doesnt have to follow the rules

if i want to win in the nba next season i pick oshae over zion. bc zions likley going to be on the sidelines eating big macs all year again cashing his sneaker checks. and oshae def wont be doing any of that.

but who cares about winning? none of the players seem to...
 
i understand most of the ridiculous and convoluted machinations of how money is allotted in the NBA.

i understand how all players are viewed through the pyramid shaped lens that the overall NBA salary structure is...I just dont buy into it.

I get it that Oshae had as little leverage as one can possibly have in terms of signing a multi-year deal in the NBA...he probably signed that contract with his hands tied behind his back, basically.

when i look at players like ben simmons kyrie zion kawhi etc and how they are disrespcting the league that pays them basically...they are all making a mockery of the sport with their commitment to play...and then players oike john wall on 44million being paid to not play etc...

when I then read people saying how oshae just needs to put his head down and accept his lowly status and be stoic...i dont like it and i dont agree.

it smacks of elitism and this idea that successful people are better than the rest of us and that we should accept our low spot on the totem pole and be grateful and that only the upper crust of the world doesnt have to follow the rules

if i want to win in the nba next season i pick oshae over zion. bc zions likley going to be on the sidelines eating big macs all year again cashing his sneaker checks. and oshae def wont be doing any of that.

but who cares about winning? none of the players seem to...
Sir, this is an Arby's.
 
i understand most of the ridiculous and convoluted machinations of how money is allotted in the NBA.

i understand how all players are viewed through the pyramid shaped lens that the overall NBA salary structure is...I just dont buy into it.

I get it that Oshae had as little leverage as one can possibly have in terms of signing a multi-year deal in the NBA...he probably signed that contract with his hands tied behind his back, basically.

when i look at players like ben simmons kyrie zion kawhi etc and how they are disrespcting the league that pays them basically...they are all making a mockery of the sport with their commitment to play...and then players oike john wall on 44million being paid to not play etc...

when I then read people saying how oshae just needs to put his head down and accept his lowly status and be stoic...i dont like it and i dont agree.

it smacks of elitism and this idea that successful people are better than the rest of us and that we should accept our low spot on the totem pole and be grateful and that only the upper crust of the world doesnt have to follow the rules

if i want to win in the nba next season i pick oshae over zion. bc zions likley going to be on the sidelines eating big macs all year again cashing his sneaker checks. and oshae def wont be doing any of that.

but who cares about winning? none of the players seem to...

Kawhi is a two-time Finals MVP. He can do whatever he wants.

Kyrie had to play in partial games and lost his salary in the games he didn’t play.

Ben Simmons is having to sue to even try to get his salary.

Zion is a 300 pound athlete with serious leg and foot issues on a rookie contract.

John Wall is not playing because Houston told him not to so they can develop the young players.

Oshae is in line for a contract that will pay him like 7 - 10 million per year, depending on how he does this year. Maybe the Pacers’ off-season plans fall thru and they need to decline his club option and offer him like a 3/30 deal. I dunno.

But him threatening to sit… right now. He’s toast. He’s not even remotely close to good enough to pull that. And it’s why his agent hasn’t done it.
 
i understand most of the ridiculous and convoluted machinations of how money is allotted in the NBA.

i understand how all players are viewed through the pyramid shaped lens that the overall NBA salary structure is...I just dont buy into it.

I get it that Oshae had as little leverage as one can possibly have in terms of signing a multi-year deal in the NBA...he probably signed that contract with his hands tied behind his back, basically.

when i look at players like ben simmons kyrie zion kawhi etc and how they are disrespcting the league that pays them basically...they are all making a mockery of the sport with their commitment to play...and then players oike john wall on 44million being paid to not play etc...

when I then read people saying how oshae just needs to put his head down and accept his lowly status and be stoic...i dont like it and i dont agree.

it smacks of elitism and this idea that successful people are better than the rest of us and that we should accept our low spot on the totem pole and be grateful and that only the upper crust of the world doesnt have to follow the rules

if i want to win in the nba next season i pick oshae over zion. bc zions likley going to be on the sidelines eating big macs all year again cashing his sneaker checks. and oshae def wont be doing any of that.

but who cares about winning? none of the players seem to...

One of the oddest hills to die on I've ever seen...
 
One of the oddest hills to die on I've ever seen...
okay...i just dont think that his production is equivalent to a salary of 1 point something mil in todays NBA...not even remotely fair.

and without a guarantee of more i.e. a longterm deal he is risking playing this season. i hope im not proven rigth...

i'll leave it at that.
 
okay...i just dont think that his production is equivalent to a salary of 1 point something mil in todays NBA...not even remotely fair.

and without a guarantee of more i.e. a longterm deal he is risking playing this season. i hope im not proven rigth...

i'll leave it at that.
The NBA isn’t fair. Restructuring contracts is immensely rare and I’m not even sure Oshae is technically eligible to fight for a restructure. It just isn’t a thing the way it is in the NFL for example. He could try to work out a new contract that would start when his current one ends but that’s about all the power he has right now and obviously Indiana can just say they want him to play out his current deal if they want.

Having said that, they’re in the middle of a rebuild right now and seem to like him enough to have kept him around the past couple years so maybe they will end up giving him a long term deal at some point.

I’m not sure I agree with Mike on the kind of contract he’s currently in line for. He took a step back this season and was mostly bad with the exception of a handful of games at the end of the year. It’s certainly possible he could get $7-10 mil but if he plateaus or takes another step back next season he’s probably back to looking for a minimum contract again.

The end of the season was certainly promising though.
 
okay...i just dont think that his production is equivalent to a salary of 1 point something mil in todays NBA...not even remotely fair.

and without a guarantee of more i.e. a longterm deal he is risking playing this season. i hope im not proven rigth...

i'll leave it at that.
The thing you don't seem to understand is that this is the tradeoff of all NBA contracts being guaranteed. Every once in a while a guy outperforms his contract pretty significantly, and they just have to ride out those contract terms. On the other side, if a player massively underperforms relative to their contract, that money is still guaranteed over the life of the contract.

You demonstrate that you don't really understand the business fundamentals of NBA contracts when you propose things like sitting out, or state that you just don't like how it works so it should work differently.
 
The NBA isn’t fair. Restructuring contracts is immensely rare and I’m not even sure Oshae is technically eligible to fight for a restructure. It just isn’t a thing the way it is in the NFL for example. He could try to work out a new contract that would start when his current one ends but that’s about all the power he has right now and obviously Indiana can just say they want him to play out his current deal if they want.

Having said that, they’re in the middle of a rebuild right now and seem to like him enough to have kept him around the past couple years so maybe they will end up giving him a long term deal at some point.

I’m not sure I agree with Mike on the kind of contract he’s currently in line for. He took a step back this season and was mostly bad with the exception of a handful of games at the end of the year. It’s certainly possible he could get $7-10 mil but if he plateaus or takes another step back next season he’s probably back to looking for a minimum contract again.

The end of the season was certainly promising though.
It's really hard to peg what guys in the middle make. There are X many max contracts, and Y many guys on vet minimum deals, and then a weird swath of players in the middle that have all kinds of different factors that play into their salary. Cap room, bird rights, the different exceptions for teams over the cap, etc. Plus sometimes a team may increase a contract offer not because of the player, but so that the contract value can give more flexibility as a puzzle piece in potential trades and they're willing to overpay a little for that kind of flex.
 
The NBA isn’t fair. Restructuring contracts is immensely rare and I’m not even sure Oshae is technically eligible to fight for a restructure. It just isn’t a thing the way it is in the NFL for example. He could try to work out a new contract that would start when his current one ends but that’s about all the power he has right now and obviously Indiana can just say they want him to play out his current deal if they want.

Having said that, they’re in the middle of a rebuild right now and seem to like him enough to have kept him around the past couple years so maybe they will end up giving him a long term deal at some point.

I’m not sure I agree with Mike on the kind of contract he’s currently in line for. He took a step back this season and was mostly bad with the exception of a handful of games at the end of the year. It’s certainly possible he could get $7-10 mil but if he plateaus or takes another step back next season he’s probably back to looking for a minimum contract again.

The end of the season was certainly promising though.

7-10 might be on the upper end, but with the new media deal looming, that’s going to be Pennie’s, relatively. That’s why I think he could get it. Might not tho.
 
The thing you don't seem to understand is that this is the tradeoff of all NBA contracts being guaranteed. Every once in a while a guy outperforms his contract pretty significantly, and they just have to ride out those contract terms. On the other side, if a player massively underperforms relative to their contract, that money is still guaranteed over the life of the contract.

You demonstrate that you don't really understand the business fundamentals of NBA contracts when you propose things like sitting out, or state that you just don't like how it works so it should work differently.

I agree -- and I think it is important to not apply the lens of hindsight to when Oshae signed the contract.

He'd gone undrafted. He'd toiled in obscurity in the minors, he was chasing a dream -- and then he got his foot in the door in the most limited way possible. Sink or swim, it was up to him. And he knocked it out of the park with how he played, and Indiana kept him around longer than most call-ups.

And when they offered him a contract, I strongly doubt that Oshae felt like his "hands were tied behind his back" -- I bet he was overjoyed to sign that initial contract. Because it put him in 7 figures, and it meant he would be sticking around the league for longer.

And most importantly, because the trade off was:
  1. Sign an NBA contract, even one that wasn't extremely lucrative, but which made him a millionaire
  2. Take a principled stand and go back to the minors, and take his chances
I mean... what's difficult to understand about this?

I completely agree that he's "outplayed" that contract, and that his performance warrants a bigger payday. That's what second contracts are all about.

I'll bet that instead of crying that he didn't sign a bigger first contract, Oshae is grateful that he got the opportunity to live out his dream and prove his worth, positioning him for a bigger payday down the road. When he signed that first contract, and had basically not made a substantial amount of money up to that point -- do you honestly think he felt exploited, used, or disrespected when he signed a multi-year contract with guaranteed money, that pushed him to earning 7 figures? I don't.

He's on the cusp of achieving that dream anyway.


EDIT -- something else I didn't think of earlier, but compare and contrast how things worked out for Brissett compared to another Orange great, C.J. Fair. Fair also toiled for a long time in the g-league, was a key starter on a team that won a championship, a g-league all star, etc. He went to training camps with the Pacers, and even almost made the opening day roster one year, but never got an opportunity to actually play at the NBA level.

Toward the end of his g-league career, he got called up by the Chicago Bulls, who were having massive injury problems [I think that they were flirting with not having the minimum number of available players, like 7, due to the numerous injuries]. A bunch of substitute roster guys were going to have to play, just because somebody has to. CJ got called up on like a Thursday, but as timing would have it the Bulls weren't playing a game until Sunday. But he was a shoo-in for minutes. Practiced with the team a couple of days... only to get cut on Sunday, because the Bulls wanted to sign some other 10-day contract player that another team dumped.

He came within 12 hours or so of at least playing in an NBA game. If the Bulls schedule had a game on Saturday, he would have played. All just bad luck with the timing. Even if he never made it any further than that, for the rest of time he could have known that he made it to the bigs, and played in an NBA game. Maybe he didn't stick, maybe he didn't earn big bucks, but he'd forever his legacy would be that of someone who played in the NBA.

I'm pretty sure that given how things worked out, and given how tantalizingly close he came, CJ would probably cut off his left foot if it meant he could have played in that one NBA game. Comparatively, Brissett hit a grand slam.
 
Last edited:
I’m not sure I agree with Mike on the kind of contract he’s currently in line for. He took a step back this season and was mostly bad with the exception of a handful of games at the end of the year. It’s certainly possible he could get $7-10 mil but if he plateaus or takes another step back next season he’s probably back to looking for a minimum contract again.

The end of the season was certainly promising though.

I think it's tough to put too much stock in the early mixed bag result wise. Its a team that had lots of questions to start the year given injuries and a new coach. Oshae made his mark with the previous staff and got very little time to build off that. New start means a lot of work and focus on the team's core. He was oddly utilized this season and at times just didn't make sense. He is certainly a massive bargain- he also was given the kind of opportunity you give a guy you see as a trade asset despite that it makes far more sense to keep him.

It was overall a very weird year for them. I would have expected more from a Carlisle coached team.
 
I think it's tough to put too much stock in the early mixed bag result wise. Its a team that had lots of questions to start the year given injuries and a new coach. Oshae made his mark with the previous staff and got very little time to build off that. New start means a lot of work and focus on the team's core. He was oddly utilized this season and at times just didn't make sense. He is certainly a massive bargain- he also was given the kind of opportunity you give a guy you see as a trade asset despite that it makes far more sense to keep him.

It was overall a very weird year for them. I would have expected more from a Carlisle coached team.
Yeah. Carlisle's a good coach. I thought they'd be a lot better.
 
It's really hard to peg what guys in the middle make. There are X many max contracts, and Y many guys on vet minimum deals, and then a weird swath of players in the middle that have all kinds of different factors that play into their salary. Cap room, bird rights, the different exceptions for teams over the cap, etc. Plus sometimes a team may increase a contract offer not because of the player, but so that the contract value can give more flexibility as a puzzle piece in potential trades and they're willing to overpay a little for that kind of flex.
Yep. And the recent trend towards everyone only giving out 1 year deals or like 3 year deals where it’s nonguaranteed after the first year. It’s a tough time to be a guy of Oshae’s caliber but he does at least have youth on his side.
 
Yep. And the recent trend towards everyone only giving out 1 year deals or like 3 year deals where it’s nonguaranteed after the first year. It’s a tough time to be a guy of Oshae’s caliber but he does at least have youth on his side.
If this was a few years prior he could have pulled a Mozgov and inked a massive contract relative to what the heck he was contributing on the court, like a few others during that "boom".
 
TJ Warren was a 1st round pick and thus received a guaranteed contract. He performed well relative to his draft slot and received a solid second contract. He has achieved significantly more than Obrissy in the NBA.

Brissett was undrafted and had an exhibit 10 contract and 2 way contract to start his career, but mostly had to grind things out in the minor leagues (not unlike HOFCeluck 's mom) before getting a couple 10-day contracts with the Pacers that he really made the most of. He wasn't in a particularly strong bargaining position and basically got a guaranteed 2 year deal because it's such a no-brainer for the Pacers to pick up the 2nd year option.
You know Lent is almost over, right?! :p
 
I agree -- and I think it is important to not apply the lens of hindsight to when Oshae signed the contract.
but i posted at the time that he signed the multiyear deal witn the Pacers that he should just sign for 1 year...and if he had...he'd be in line for a lot more money, and sooner. he'd already be on a mch better, guarnateed contract RIGHT NOW. theres nothing hinsight about this for me. couldnt he have negotiated the deal he signed???? like in terms of years or performance or something...and if he couldnt - if he literally had to take whatever was offered no questions asked- how is that something that he should honor??? is that really the way it should be considering how most NBA players are dealt with (where they are just thrown bags of money based on potential that they seem to rarely live up to)?
The thing you don't seem to understand is that this is the tradeoff of all NBA contracts being guaranteed. Every once in a while a guy outperforms his contract pretty significantly, and they just have to ride out those contract terms. On the other side, if a player massively underperforms relative to their contract, that money is still guaranteed over the life of the contract.

You demonstrate that you don't really understand the business fundamentals of NBA contracts when you propose things like sitting out, or state that you just don't like how it works so it should work differently.
no i get it. most big contracts arent worth it so it makes sense that there would be some underperformers that outplay what they are on...but i think in oshaes case, he still hasnt earned much in NBA terms and hasnt solidified much in terms of guarantees...especially relative to what he has shown as a player. I'd say even most players who outperform contracts in the NBA are generally in a much better place financially than brissett is...

to your other point, i mean...are we not seeing a plethora of athletes in all sports in recent times sit out when they dont like their contract status????? is that not the era we are in??? i dont like it. but thats the norm now...and the players are getting away with it pretty well i'd say!

It's really hard to peg what guys in the middle make. There are X many max contracts, and Y many guys on vet minimum deals, and then a weird swath of players in the middle that have all kinds of different factors that play into their salary. Cap room, bird rights, the different exceptions for teams over the cap, etc. Plus sometimes a team may increase a contract offer not because of the player, but so that the contract value can give more flexibility as a puzzle piece in potential trades and they're willing to overpay a little for that kind of flex.
thats why you have seen some teams without (m)any max players or (m)any stars do really well lately a la the miami heat, atlanta hawks nets (before the stars) etc...and star laden teams like the lakers etc underperform. the contract process in the NBA is drifting further and further away from a correlation to what actually happens on the court. i'd like to see a team that goes for 12, 10-million dollar players and no max contracts give it a go (i'd bet that team would do very very well)...but i guess agents would never let that happen...there always has to be an alpha on every roster...even if its only in terms of salary and not performance.
 
but i posted at the time that he signed the multiyear deal witn the Pacers that he should just sign for 1 year...and if he had...he'd be in line for a lot more money, and sooner. he'd already be on a mch better, guarnateed contract RIGHT NOW. theres nothing hinsight about this for me. couldnt he have negotiated the deal he signed???? like in terms of years or performance or something...and if he couldnt - if he literally had to take whatever was offered no questions asked- how is that something that he should honor??? is that really the way it should be considering how most NBA players are dealt with (where they are just thrown bags of money based on potential that they seem to rarely live up to)?

no i get it. most big contracts arent worth it so it makes sense that there would be some underperformers that outplay what they are on...but i think in oshaes case, he still hasnt earned much in NBA terms and hasnt solidified much in terms of guarantees...especially relative to what he has shown as a player. I'd say even most players who outperform contracts in the NBA are generally in a much better place financially than brissett is...

to your other point, i mean...are we not seeing a plethora of athletes in all sports in recent times sit out when they dont like their contract status????? is that not the era we are in??? i dont like it. but thats the norm now...and the players are getting away with it pretty well i'd say!


thats why you have seen some teams without (m)any max players or (m)any stars do really well lately a la the miami heat, atlanta hawks nets (before the stars) etc...and star laden teams like the lakers etc underperform. the contract process in the NBA is drifting further and further away from a correlation to what actually happens on the court. i'd like to see a team that goes for 12, 10-million dollar players and no max contracts give it a go (i'd bet that team would do very very well)...but i guess agents would never let that happen...there always has to be an alpha on every roster...even if its only in terms of salary and not performance.

Give it up
 
but i posted at the time that he signed the multiyear deal witn the Pacers that he should just sign for 1 year...and if he had...he'd be in line for a lot more money, and sooner. he'd already be on a mch better, guarnateed contract RIGHT NOW. theres nothing hinsight about this for me. couldnt he have negotiated the deal he signed???? like in terms of years or performance or something...and if he couldnt - if he literally had to take whatever was offered no questions asked- how is that something that he should honor??? is that really the way it should be considering how most NBA players are dealt with (where they are just thrown bags of money based on potential that they seem to rarely live up to)?

no i get it. most big contracts arent worth it so it makes sense that there would be some underperformers that outplay what they are on...but i think in oshaes case, he still hasnt earned much in NBA terms and hasnt solidified much in terms of guarantees...especially relative to what he has shown as a player. I'd say even most players who outperform contracts in the NBA are generally in a much better place financially than brissett is...

to your other point, i mean...are we not seeing a plethora of athletes in all sports in recent times sit out when they dont like their contract status????? is that not the era we are in??? i dont like it. but thats the norm now...and the players are getting away with it pretty well i'd say!


thats why you have seen some teams without (m)any max players or (m)any stars do really well lately a la the miami heat, atlanta hawks nets (before the stars) etc...and star laden teams like the lakers etc underperform. the contract process in the NBA is drifting further and further away from a correlation to what actually happens on the court. i'd like to see a team that goes for 12, 10-million dollar players and no max contracts give it a go (i'd bet that team would do very very well)...but i guess agents would never let that happen...there always has to be an alpha on every roster...even if its only in terms of salary and not performance.


It's still an awful take.

Demonstrates zero perspective.
 
okay...i just dont think that his production is equivalent to a salary of 1 point something mil in todays NBA...not even remotely fair.

and without a guarantee of more i.e. a longterm deal he is risking playing this season. i hope im not proven rigth...

i'll leave it at that.

I guess you didn't leave it at that. Outside the 25k other good reasons provided - sit out a year for more money and there are 50 other guys with good potential getting the spot you wouldn't take because of wanting more money. They would be thanking Oshae for his generosity.

There are maybe 15-20 guys total in the league that can play that card successfully give or take a few.
 

Just read an interesting article about the Miami Heat's approach to roster building and it made me think of this thread.

Something is broken in terms of how the NBA assesses and incorporates talent into its teams...and that is why the Heat have been able to do so well with undrafted players.

in the article it says that they give undrafted players the same chances as first rounders...which is what all teams should do. instead, there's a hierachy of opportuntiy based on status etc

Brissett is another example of this. Myabe I havent expressed what I am getting at well in this thread but my general point is that talent and on-court production is very often misaligned with compensation in today's NBA...in fact, its rare when compensation actually matches production.

I personally feel like players cant really do anything about it...they are going to take whatever opportunity is there, expecially undrafted players...but its not right in terms of simply creating a level playing field for talent to access the league.
 

Just read an interesting article about the Miami Heat's approach to roster building and it made me think of this thread.

Something is broken in terms of how the NBA assesses and incorporates talent into its teams...and that is why the Heat have been able to do so well with undrafted players.

in the article it says that they give undrafted players the same chances as first rounders...which is what all teams should do. instead, there's a hierachy of opportuntiy based on status etc

Brissett is another example of this. Myabe I havent expressed what I am getting at well in this thread but my general point is that talent and on-court production is very often misaligned with compensation in today's NBA...in fact, its rare when compensation actually matches production.

I personally feel like players cant really do anything about it...they are going to take whatever opportunity is there, expecially undrafted players...but its not right in terms of simply creating a level playing field for talent to access the league.
The smarter NBA teams will eventually copy the Heat model.
 

Just read an interesting article about the Miami Heat's approach to roster building and it made me think of this thread.

Something is broken in terms of how the NBA assesses and incorporates talent into its teams...and that is why the Heat have been able to do so well with undrafted players.

in the article it says that they give undrafted players the same chances as first rounders...which is what all teams should do. instead, there's a hierachy of opportuntiy based on status etc

Brissett is another example of this. Myabe I havent expressed what I am getting at well in this thread but my general point is that talent and on-court production is very often misaligned with compensation in today's NBA...in fact, its rare when compensation actually matches production.

I personally feel like players cant really do anything about it...they are going to take whatever opportunity is there, expecially undrafted players...but its not right in terms of simply creating a level playing field for talent to access the league.
Awesome article.

Also, how hilarious is the Sioux Falls to Miami developmental shuttle?
 

Forum statistics

Threads
170,660
Messages
4,904,318
Members
6,005
Latest member
bajinga24

Online statistics

Members online
350
Guests online
2,027
Total visitors
2,377


...
Top Bottom