OT: derrick rose

[orangehomer]

I never really got to watch him much when he was mvp level with the bulls. first it is surreal to me that this dude is on the knicks now. but I guess I am just surprised how short he is. that dude is really short for an mvp.

and an aside: does any major star take a bigger beating than Carmelo physically? I realize he is strong as hell and creates a lot of contact, but man he gets beat on.

 

[jncuse]

How is it surreal that the Knicks have him. He is an overpaid player, once a star, who is now a bottom third starter at his position. Seems like the type of guy the Knicks have always went after.

 

[orangehomer]

How is it surreal that the Knicks have him. He is an overpaid player, once a star, who is now a bottom third starter at his position. Seems like the type of guy the Knicks have always went after.

he's only 28 and he was mvp of the league only 5 years ago. I just think it is unusual that a guy like that is gone from his original franchise so quickly. I mean it shows, he is nowhere near what he was. he went from being a superstar to being a dime a dozen role player and he isn't even 30. it's crazy how competitive the NBA is. it has to be the most competitive sports league of any kind on earth.

edit: another thing is that people keep throwing this "oh that guys is overpaid or that other guy is overpaid" or whatever. compared to what? did you see the salary cap increases in the nba over last year and the next few? and there is a floor, you have to spend a percentage of it. there are a lot worse guys than derrick rose getting paid way more than they deserve right now, according to our outdated sensibilities.

 

[RF2044]

he's only 28 and he was mvp of the league only 5 years ago. I just think it is unusual that a guy like that is gone from his original franchise so quickly. I mean it shows, he is nowhere near what he was. he went from being a superstar to being a dime a dozen role player and he isn't even 30. it's crazy how competitive the NBA is. it has to be the most competitive sports league of any kind on earth.

Injuries.

 

[orangehomer]

Injuries.

do you think it is just injuries though? I just went through the list, the only comparable one is allen Iverson. and I think we can all agree that Iverson was way better than rose for a much longer time. debilitating injuries are not common in basketball, if it is truly injuries that took out rose that is unprecedented from what I can tell from the mvp list. the dude was on top of basketball 5 years ago and now he is some has been chucker and he is only 28. it's crazy.

 

[MadNY3]

does any major star take a bigger beating than Carmelo physically? I realize he is strong as hell and creates a lot of contact, but man he gets beat on.

LeBron. Absolutely.

 

[RF2044]

do you think it is just injuries though? I just went through the list, the only comparable one is allen Iverson. and I think we can all agree that Iverson was way better than rose for a much longer time. debilitating injuries are not common in basketball, if it is truly injuries that took out rose that is unprecedented from what I can tell from the mvp list. the dude was on top of basketball 5 years ago and now he is some has been chucker and he is only 28. it's crazy.

No doubt, Rose has had a much shorter run compared to Iverson, but yes--it has absolutely been injuries that have derailed him. Both in terms of clipping several seasons short, but also with regards to robbing him of the explosive athleticism / quickness that made him so difficult to guard.

These days, he's a bigger guard who isn't nearly as fast as he used to be. And since he's never been a great shooter, he's far more limited than he used to be when he can't just get to the rim at will.

 

[OrangeDW]

LeBron. Absolutely.

Only difference is they actually call fouls when it happens to Lebron.

That play late in the game where Melo went baseline and got hammered with no call was so typical.

 

[NineOneSeven]

do you think it is just injuries though? I just went through the list, the only comparable one is allen Iverson. and I think we can all agree that Iverson was way better than rose for a much longer time. debilitating injuries are not common in basketball, if it is truly injuries that took out rose that is unprecedented from what I can tell from the mvp list. the dude was on top of basketball 5 years ago and now he is some has been chucker and he is only 28. it's crazy.

Umm... The dude has had 2 major knee injuries. Yes, I would say that's the overwhelming primary factor here.

 

[orangehomer]

Umm... The dude has had 2 major knee injuries. Yes, I would say that's the overwhelming primary factor here.

no injuries are good injuries, but reading the Wikipedia he had an acl, and two meniscus issues. acl is not really considered a major injury anymore, and the meniscus stuff was considered minor both times from what I could tell. I think the metrics of the nba have changed a lot, and he just isn't an efficient player anymore because he cant shoot.

 

[NineOneSeven]

no injuries are good injuries, but reading the Wikipedia he had an acl, and two meniscus issues. acl is not really considered a major injury anymore, and the meniscus stuff was considered minor both times from what I could tell. I think the metrics of the nba have changed a lot, and he just isn't an efficient player anymore because he cant shoot.

Dude... What????

What?!?

 

[orangehomer]

Dude... What????

What?!?

you realize that this isn't 1985, and guys tear an acl and are back to normal in like 1.5 years right? its like tommy john surgery was virtually career ending at one point, now every pitcher gets it.

 

[NineOneSeven]

you realize that this isn't 1985, and guys tear an acl and are back to normal in like 1.5 years right? its like tommy john surgery was virtually career ending at one point, now every pitcher gets it.

Of everything I have seen posted on this board, this is right up there.

You are somehow completely forgetting about the type of player he is, the overall game demands, and most importantly the mental aspect of this

 

[orangehomer]

Of everything I have seen posted on this board, this is right up there.

You are somehow completely forgetting about the type of player he is, the overall game demands, and most importantly the mental aspect of this

I realize it is easier for most people to compartmentalize things. so I when bring up sort of a big picture what-happened-to-this-guy type question, you would rather not consider nuance but would rather consider only a simple answer "oh he got hurt dude". I get it. it is an easy way out and an easy way for you to treat me like I am stupid. that's fine. the only point of my post was that the derrick rose mvp and then fall from grace was unprecedented when considering the last 30 or so mvp's.

forgetting the type of player he is? my larger point is that the nba evolves, and quickly. this dude was the mvp 5 years ago. yet, if he were at his peak this year, he would look like a bad version of Russell westbrook. that's how fast it changes. he wasn't even a good version of allen Iverson

 

[shandeezy7]

How is it surreal that the Knicks have him. He is an overpaid player, once a star, who is now a bottom third starter at his position. Seems like the type of guy the Knicks have always went after.

No way is Rose, when healthy, a bottom third starting PG in the NBA. I'd put him in the 10 to 15 range.

 

[Brooky03]

do you think it is just injuries though? I just went through the list, the only comparable one is allen Iverson. and I think we can all agree that Iverson was way better than rose for a much longer time. debilitating injuries are not common in basketball, if it is truly injuries that took out rose that is unprecedented from what I can tell from the mvp list. the dude was on top of basketball 5 years ago and now he is some has been chucker and he is only 28. it's crazy.

It's definitely the injuries. He doesn't have a jumpshot and became MVP by being more athletic than anybody else on the court pretty much. He made a living getting into the lane and dunking. His style of play resulted in a lot of contact and cost him dearly, though. Iverson was also a small athletic guy who thrived by getting into the paint, but he avoided contact much better and had a considerably better jumper.

 

[Brooky03]

Only difference is they actually call fouls when it happens to Lebron.

That play late in the game where Melo went baseline and got hammered with no call was so typical.

This. this. this. If Melo got the calls LeBron gets, he'd probably challenge Harden for the most FT attempts each season. If Harden was officiated the way Melo is, he'd be middle of the pack in FT attempts. It's crazy.

 

[OrangeDW]

I realize it is easier for most people to compartmentalize things. so I when bring up sort of a big picture what-happened-to-this-guy type question, you would rather not consider nuance but would rather consider only a simple answer "oh he got hurt dude". I get it. it is an easy way out and an easy way for you to treat me like I am stupid. that's fine. the only point of my post was that the derrick rose mvp and then fall from grace was unprecedented when considering the last 30 or so mvp's.

forgetting the type of player he is? my larger point is that the nba evolves, and quickly. this dude was the mvp 5 years ago. yet, if he were at his peak this year, he would look like a bad version of Russell westbrook. that's how fast it changes. he wasn't even a good version of allen Iverson

But with Rose, it IS the injuries. He was great, and then he suffered a major injury in the playoffs against Philly, and then kept getting hurt. He's never played at the same level since that injury in the playoffs.

All these guys aren't the same. They don't all have the same bodies, the same injuries, the same recoveries, and their games aren't all affected the same.

Yes, it's crazy to think where Rose's career was just 5 years ago vs. now. A lot has changed. It was the injury that caused it.

 

[NineOneSeven]

I realize it is easier for most people to compartmentalize things. so I when bring up sort of a big picture what-happened-to-this-guy type question, you would rather not consider nuance but would rather consider only a simple answer "oh he got hurt dude". I get it. it is an easy way out and an easy way for you to treat me like I am stupid. that's fine. the only point of my post was that the derrick rose mvp and then fall from grace was unprecedented when considering the last 30 or so mvp's.

forgetting the type of player he is? my larger point is that the nba evolves, and quickly. this dude was the mvp 5 years ago. yet, if he were at his peak this year, he would look like a bad version of Russell westbrook. that's how fast it changes. he wasn't even a good version of allen Iverson

He got hurt... Multiple times. To his knees. Multiple surgeries. That is huge for a basketball player.

MVP at age 22. Who knows how he may have improved if healthy

 

[PoppyHart]

I realize it is easier for most people to compartmentalize things. so I when bring up sort of a big picture what-happened-to-this-guy type question, you would rather not consider nuance but would rather consider only a simple answer "oh he got hurt dude". I get it. it is an easy way out and an easy way for you to treat me like I am stupid. that's fine. the only point of my post was that the derrick rose mvp and then fall from grace was unprecedented when considering the last 30 or so mvp's.

forgetting the type of player he is? my larger point is that the nba evolves, and quickly. this dude was the mvp 5 years ago. yet, if he were at his peak this year, he would look like a bad version of Russell westbrook. that's how fast it changes. he wasn't even a good version of allen Iverson

Perhaps, if you confine it to actual MVPs, which really limits the pool. But what about other once dominant players who were then shadows of themselves after, yes, serious injuries? Anfernee Hardaway? Bernard King? Steve Nash? I'm sure there are a lot of very solid examples.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Bill Walton, Tracy McGrady, Penny Hardaway were all NBA superstars whose injuries quickly derailed their careers into becoming journeymen.

 

[OrangeDW]

Perhaps, if you confine it to actual MVPs, which really limits the pool. But what about other once dominant players who were then shadows of themselves after, yes, serious injuries? Anfernee Hardaway? Bernard King? Steve Nash? I'm sure there are a lot of very solid examples.

Larry Johnson, Grant Hill, Tracy McGrady...there's just so many bball players it's happened to. The league is so competitive, any physical decline from a major injury is definitely enough to take a superstar to an average player.

 

[jncuse]

No way is Rose, when healthy, a bottom third starting PG in the NBA. I'd put him in the 10 to 15 range.

Seems like we might both be wrong.

There are some outstanding guards in the NBA right now.

Can't see him being in the top 14. I can't argue him over the following who are all better statistically (some not that much) and on playoff teams (other than Lillard)

Kyrie Irving
Kyle Lowry
Isaiah Thomas
John Wall
Dennis Schroeder
Jeff Teague
Kemba Walker
Steph Curry
James Harden
Chris Paul
Russell Westbrook
George Hill
Mike Conley
Damien Lillard

The debate for Rose is probably somewhere between #15-20. I guess he could slide into the 15 spot. I would go with Dragic.

Erik Bledsoe
Goran Dragic
J'rue Holiday
Derrick Rose

So he is not bottom third, but he is not that close to #10 either.

 

[shandeezy7]

Seems like we might both be wrong.

There are some outstanding guards in the NBA right now.

Can't see him being in the top 14. I can't argue him over the following who are all better statistically (some not that much) and on playoff teams (other than Lillard)

Kyrie Irving
Kyle Lowry
Isaiah Thomas
John Wall
Dennis Schroeder
Jeff Teague
Kemba Walker
Steph Curry
James Harden
Chris Paul
Russell Westbrook
George Hill
Mike Conley
Damien Lillard

The debate for Rose is probably somewhere between #15-20. I guess he could slide into the 15 spot. I would go with Dragic.

Erik Bledsoe
Goran Dragic
J'rue Holiday
Derrick Rose

So he is not bottom third, but he is not that close to #10 either.

Yeah I said 10-15 but would put him closer to 15 than 10 as well.

 

[Knicks411]

No doubt, Rose has had a much shorter run compared to Iverson, but yes--it has absolutely been injuries that have derailed him. Both in terms of clipping several seasons short, but also with regards to robbing him of the explosive athleticism / quickness that made him so difficult to guard.

These days, he's a bigger guard who isn't nearly as fast as he used to be. And since he's never been a great shooter, he's far more limited than he used to be when he can't just get to the rim at will.

The odd thing is, I watch Rose a lot, and I have to say, i am pretty surprised at the burst/quickness he still shows on a somewhat regular basis. There's more of that left in him than i thought. That being said, the injuries have clearly brought him down multiple notches and I'm not a fan of him being on the Knicks at all. I just thought he would look more "broken down" when they got him, if that makes any sense.

Perhaps, if you confine it to actual MVPs, which really limits the pool. But what about other once dominant players who were then shadows of themselves after, yes, serious injuries? Anfernee Hardaway? Bernard King? Steve Nash? I'm sure there are a lot of very solid examples.

Hey, nash was an MVP, and he just got old, I don't think he belongs in this conversation. Penny is probably the absolute best example of this though. Grant Hill is another. Brandon Roy.