Our OOC schedule is way too weak*

[Alsacs]

If SU goes undefeated in the non-conference and goes 15-3 in the Big East we are a 1 seed. B1G champ, Duke, Florida, Big East Champ are the 1 seeds this year. Duke and Florida will roll through their conferences and have banked enough non-conference wins. I think one of Louisville or Syracuse will be a 1 seed and one of Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, Ohio State will be a 1 seed. Louisville AND Syracuse may prefer being 2 seeds if they get Indianapolis and Washingon D.C. respectively. If SU ends a 2 seed in D.C. I will be happy.

 

[heresjohnny88]

It's probably 1 game weaker than normal. San Diego St, Arkansas, Temple are 3 quality opponents. We're playing all 3 outside the Dome. And Detroit isn't terrible.

 

[PoppyHart]

Why? Because it disproves what many are saying? Just because SU chooses to play a lot of local teams doesn't mean they are worse than the schools other teams play. And take a look at how many away games these teams play. There is not an away games on the list for Duke. 5 neutral court games but no away games. UNC has 2 with 2 neutral courts. Kentucky 1 with 2 neutral courts. And all these stats can be found on CBS sports.com

There's no need to get into the home/away/neutral discussion, as that's been dissected in detail in another thread.

I'm referring to your assessment of # of games vs. top 100, top 200, and top 300 teams. It's well documented that our RPI is usually pretty good (independent of our own success) b/c we play fewer garbage teams (say 250+ RPI), and that significantly narrows the gap between schools who's schedules are more top-heavy.

Here are the average OOC RPIs, for instance, for SU and UNC. While SU has a "better" average RPI, whether it prepares us better for the long run is debatable.


SU UNC
27 6
61 7
71 31
92 71
101 107
105 140
110 150
125 158
170 172
183 218
210 226
213 304
241 _
131.5 132.5

 

[Alsacs]

There's no need to get into the home/away/neutral discussion, as that's been dissected in detail in another thread.

I'm referring to your assessment of # of games vs. top 100, top 200, and top 300 teams. It's well documented that our RPI is usually pretty good (independent of our own success) b/c we play fewer garbage teams (say 250+ RPI), and that significantly narrows the gap between schools who's schedules are more top-heavy.

Here are the average OOC RPIs, for instance, for SU and UNC. While SU has a "better" average RPI, whether it prepares us better for the long run is debatable.


SU UNC
27 6
61 7
71 31
92 71
101 107
105 140
110 150
125 158
170 172
183 218
210 226
213 304
241 _
131.5 132.5

Why don't you include the conference opponent RPIs. The ACC has been considerably weaker than the Big East thus UNC has to play better opponents non-conference to get ready for the tournament. Maryland, Duke, who else has been a constant good ACC team? Wake Forest, Boston College had a couple of good years, but the ACC has been down as a basketball conference.

 

[PoppyHart]

Why don't you include the conference opponent RPIs. The ACC has been considerably weaker than the Big East thus UNC has to play better opponents non-conference to get ready for the tournament. Maryland, Duke, who else has been a constant good ACC team? Wake Forest, Boston College had a couple of good years, but the ACC has been down as a basketball conference.

b/c the thread is about OOC scheduling.

 

[Alsacs]

b/c the thread is about OOC scheduling.

I wouldn't use UNC as an example then. A fair comparable would be a UConn type school since they are a Big East school. UConn has played a tougher non-conference school some years. I realize our OOC have been weaker than some programs, but teams from inferior leagues than the Big East have to schedule tougher OOC to get any scalps since their conferences are weaker. The top 3 conferences the past eight years have been the Big East, Big XII, Big Ten. Those teams have had plenty of ton conference games to makeup for a lack of tough non-conference schedule. The ACC has been N. Carolina, Duke...Maryland.....everybody else.

 

[zeekay]

If Big East paid us more than 5 million a year we'd schedule more away games. Syracuse is a private school that does not get 30 million from the state like Rutgers. Once we're in ACC and make what we actually deserve, the athl. dept. should definitely look into scheduling more away games as we'll be able to afford them. As of now our home basketball games support pretty much every other sport at Syracuse for the duration of the whole year (outside of football).

What's the point of comparing us to ACC teams who currently earn 5x as much as we do from their conference? Once we're on even footing this will be a valid complaint.

 

[DoctorBombay]

 

[DomeStranger]

I think there was a time when the Big East was so grueling JB had to go light on the OOC knowing that 8 wins in the conference could be a battle. But the Big East is no longer that beast and is weaker than ever. The ACC won't be as tough either. Hopefully JB realizes he needs to take the next step into being an elite squad and get the big boys on the schedule when possible although that definitely easier said than done.

 

[HOFCeluck]

When I mentioned 60 SOS, I meant that 60 is pretty good for the 'horrible' schedule some posters were talking about. And it will only climb as we move into conference. I agree something awful would have to happen to drop us below a 1 or 2. Not sure I get what you're saying about '07 or '08, but maybe it's because I wasn't clear enough with what I meant about the 60 SOS.

We all know why we have a respectable SOS. What I'm saying is that "gaming" the RPI and SOS is what you do when you're a bubble team and you need those numbers to even make the field. That's why I referenced 08 and 07.

From the standpoint of this Syracuse team (and 10 and 12 for that matter) I don't see the point of scheduling "tougher" tomato cans. The only difference is a 20 to 30 pont blowout vs a 40 point plus blowout. We might play the same number of RPI 100 teams as Carolina, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find a neutral fan who thinks we play equally difficult OOC schedules.

I have no problem with playing an easier schedule OOC since the BE is so tough. But I recognize that it's not a great schedule by any means.

When Duke, Kansas, Louisville, Kentucky, Michigan State, and UNC play each other, it's sounds strange to hear posters say our schedule is tough because the turd teams we play might be middle of the pack in their turd conferences.

 

[IthacaMatt]

The issue is not the tournament, it's that SU is a top ten program and we are scheduling like we are #59. With the way recruiting is going, I want to see SU play a couple top teams every year. It's like we're driving the Maserati to the gocery store: fun, but not satisfying.

We replaced FOUR GUYS from last season. Chill out, dude.

 

[IthacaMatt]

IDK but it seems like we are still in exhibition season. How does this help? Do players feel that they are #4 and feel that as soon as they step on court they've already won? Do they see the games as oppurtunities for a highlight film (dunking and lobbying).?When you score about 60 points to the other team's less than 10 , how do you get the players to realize they have things to work on? Let's see what they can do when down in the second half. Boy hope they don't get a dose of reality when it counts! (NCAA Tournament time)

How does it help the team? Look at Cooney, who worked through his season opening slump. Look at Christman and Keita, who are both playing the best they ever have and have tons of confidence. Look at how our press is taking teams apart.

Look at the feel Mike is developing for where players will be on the floor and where to get them the ball. Look at Dirty, who exploded on to the national scene, and is now working thru what it's like to have defenses key on you as a main guy.

This is all good, and it's great that we're doing this now before the games really "matter" (although if we had lost 3 or 4 of these games, we would be looking at the bubble come tournament selection time). The margin for error is not so great. Boeheim scheduled just right for this team.

 

[Alsacs]

If Big East paid us more than 5 million a year we'd schedule more away games. Syracuse is a private school that does not get 30 million from the state like Rutgers. Once we're in ACC and make what we actually deserve, the athl. dept. should definitely look into scheduling more away games as we'll be able to afford them. As of now our home basketball games support pretty much every other sport at Syracuse for the duration of the whole year (outside of football).

What's the point of comparing us to ACC teams who currently earn 5x as much as we do from their conference? Once we're on even footing this will be a valid complaint.

+1 said this exact thing last nite in the chat. SU basketball has been used as the cashcow program for the school since the football team's attendance has been down.

 

[orange79]

We all know why we have a respectable SOS. What I'm saying is that "gaming" the RPI and SOS is what you do when you're a bubble team and you need those numbers to even make the field. That's why I referenced 08 and 07.

From the standpoint of this Syracuse team (and 10 and 12 for that matter) I don't see the point of scheduling "tougher" tomato cans. The only difference is a 20 to 30 pont blowout vs a 40 point plus blowout. We might play the same number of RPI 100 teams as Carolina, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find a neutral fan who thinks we play equally difficult OOC schedules.

I have no problem with playing an easier schedule OOC since the BE is so tough. But I recognize that it's not a great schedule by any means.

When Duke, Kansas, Louisville, Kentucky, Michigan State, and UNC play each other, it's sounds strange to hear posters say our schedule is tough because the turd teams we play might be middle of the pack in their turd conferences.

I don't know. I think it's pretty smart. Given how young this year's team is, 'gaming' the RPI with 'tougher tomato cans' makes sense to me. Give the kids some competition and some experience without killing them with the top teams. Plus, like it or not, RPI and SOS is a factor come tourney time - and not just for bubble teams. Seeding is involved too, as you well know. playing 'tougher tomato cans' as opposed to weaker ones can make a one or two seed difference. And that could mean the difference between being a protected seed and not.

I don't really care what other fans think of our schedule. All I know is that it has seemed to work.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Dude, we lost 4 main guys from last year. This team is doing really well so far, but there was no guarantee that they would be this good this soon. This is a great schedule for this group. A couple fairly tough early teams is enough, and we get to ease into the Big East again with a couple easy ones to start. They need to continue to ramp it up.

It's the same every year. Even before the refrain about us never leaving the state, the criticism was of our cupcake schedule. Matters not who's returning.

Frankly, it sucks as a fan, to watch these games in which I have zero emotional investment. No tension. They're boring. Might as well all be exhibitions.

 

[orange79]

It's the same every year. Even before the refrain about us never leaving the state, the criticism was of our cupcake schedule. Matters not who's returning.

Frankly, it sucks as a fan, to watch these games in which I have zero emotional investment. No tension. They're boring. Might as well all be exhibitions.

Ahhhh - not sure what you're looking for in a schedule. Can't play Duke every night.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I don't know. I think it's pretty smart. Given how young this year's team is, 'gaming' the RPI with 'tougher tomato cans' makes sense to me. Give the kids some competition and some experience without killing them with the top teams. Plus, like it or not, RPI and SOS is a factor come tourney time - and not just for bubble teams. Seeding is involved too, as you well know. playing 'tougher tomato cans' as opposed to weaker ones can make a one or two seed difference. And that could mean the difference between being a protected seed and not.

I don't really care what other fans think of our schedule. All I know is that it has seemed to work.

It hasn't worked. One final four per 12 years is not "working."

The goal is a deep March run...not a protected seed.

 

[Quazzum69]

When you kill 10 out of 13 teams by 30+, the schedule is too easy any way you cut it. I don't see why the players can't practice (as opposed to completely obliterate) on slightly tougher teams. Maybe the OOC teams should be a little more normally distributed so that we have, say, two games decided by <10 points, 4 games between 10-20, 4 games from 20-30 and 2 or 3 legitimate turds where we win by 30+. Last year seems like the perfect preseason schedule.

 

[orange79]

It hasn't worked. One final four per 12 years is not "working."

The goal is a deep March run...not a protected seed.

So, you're saying if we played the toughest schedule out there, we would make more FF's? Not sure I buy that. If we had played Duke in the regular season last year we would've beaten OSU? And I know the goal is a deep run in March and not a protected seed. An Elite 8 is pretty deep. It seems you think that unless we make a FF, the season is not a success. We disagree on that. Peace.

 

[HOFCeluck]

So, you're saying if we played the toughest schedule out there, we would make more FF's? Not sure I buy that. If we had played Duke in the regular season last year we would've beaten OSU? And I know the goal is a deep run in March and not a protected seed. An Elite 8 is pretty deep. It seems you think that unless we make a FF, the season is not a success. We disagree on that. Peace.

Turning an argument into an issue of black vs white is so Syracuse.com.

At no point did I say that I feel that if we don't make a final four the season is a success. Thats a strawman.. But for an elite program one final four per twelve years doesn't stack up to other elite programs/coaches.

BTW ...Izzo has six final fours with equal to slightly lesser talent than Boeheim. He doesn't duck anyone. just sayin...

 

[Room 914]

So, you're saying if we played the toughest schedule out there, we would make more FF's? Not sure I buy that. If we had played Duke in the regular season last year we would've beaten OSU? And I know the goal is a deep run in March and not a protected seed. An Elite 8 is pretty deep. It seems you think that unless we make a FF, the season is not a success. We disagree on that. Peace.

I think it would help us a lot to play teams from other conferences then relying on the tough big east to get us read. I understand that it's a great conference, but I think we don't play nearly enough good teams in the non conference. I don't see how it would hurt to play 2 tough road games. Even if we were to lose to someone like Michigan State or Gonzaga, how will that hurt us?

The committee will not look down on those loses and they would really help in march. Like someone said, "gaming" the RPI should be used when you think you will be close to missing the tourney. We should make our team more battle tested and play harder teams.

Always thought it was a mistake making the non conference schedule so weak.

 

[OrangeTim]

JB cares about one thing this time of year: preparing the team for the Big East regular season. He feels he can do this in game we are likely to win and doesn't have to play Duke to see his team's weaknesses. You can argue that point but we've won the BE two times and in three years and wound up with a #1 seed in the Big Dance each time.

Agree with this assessment. JB, IMO evaluates experienced players, young players and tweeks the schedule to prepare for the BE.

 

[HOFCeluck]

BTW we aren't really a young team...in spite of what we lost. Triche and our sixth man are seniors. Fair is a Jr. Rak is a soph who started every game on an elite 8 team. MCW, considering how well he's playing may as well be a senior as well. He's as likely to come back next year as Triche.

 

[RF2044]

BTW we aren't really a young team...in spite of what we lost. Triche and our sixth man are seniors. Fair is a Jr. Rak is a soph who started every game on an elite 8 team. MCW, considering how well he's playing may as well be a senior as well. He's as likely to come back next year as Triche.

That's a stretch, at best.

We lost 4 of the team's top 6 scorers. Ditto for minutes played. We had experience returning because we routinely went 10 deep, and because we had an immense amount of talent on the bench last year [including two McD's all americans who didn't get much run], but many of those players either didn't play a ton last year or have stepped into much more prominent roles this year.

But let's not pretend that this year's lineup resembles last year's in any way, shape, or form. We might have some familiar faces with Triche / Fair / Southerland and to a far, far lesser extent Keita, but the other players comprising this year's rotation are pretty much new / inexperienced / unproven.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Yeah probably...I'm bored.