Class of 2020 Patrick Tapé / Columbia Grad Transfer

[SU94]

Bowden is a great comparison.

The end of his tenure is what I fear is happening here.

I think there is some degree of truth with this. But let's also remember, FSU won the National Championship in Jimbo's fourth year in the program. The Seminoles' current plight (.500-ish team) has more to do with Fisher's strangely-public divorce (which led to a recruiting decline and his eventual departure to TA&M) and Clemson's rise than Bowden's twilight years (say 2004-09) of a decade ago.

 

[chugg21]

I think there is some degree of truth with this. But let's also remember, FSU won the National Championship in Jimbo's fourth year in the program. The Seminoles' current plight (.500-ish team) has more to do with Fisher's strangely-public divorce (which led to his eventual departure to TA&M) and Clemson's rise than Bowden's twilight years (say 2004-09) of a decade ago.

Think the Bowden comparison is more about how there was a standard of excellence set and then couldn't keep up with it. He didn't have a single season after the move to the ACC in 1990 with more than 2 losses but then 2001 hits and they lose 4 and he never again has a season with less than 3 Ls in his remaining 9 years. The age thing may or may not have something to do with it, I would think it plays a part. That downward slope all occurred in his 70s.
Similarly JB hit 70 in the '14-'15 season. Up until that point in 37 years the squad had 13+ losses in a season just 3 times. Since that point it has happened ALL 6 seasons.

I think people will conclude from that whatever their preconceived notions are and it's a fairly small sample size with a lot of variables but to me it's eerily similar.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Think the Bowden comparison is more about how there was a standard of excellence set and then couldn't keep up with it. He didn't have a single season after the move to the ACC in 1990 with more than 2 losses but then 2001 hits and they lose 4 and he never again has a season with less than 3 Ls in his remaining 9 years. The age thing may or may not have something to do with it, I would think it plays a part. That downward slope all occurred in his 70s.
Similarly JB hit 70 in the '14-'15 season. Up until that point in 37 years the squad had 13+ losses in a season just 3 times. Since that point it has happened ALL 6 seasons.

I think people will conclude from that whatever their preconceived notions are and it's a fairly small sample size with a lot of variables but to me it's eerily similar.

I think it‘s just harder to win. More teams have more talent. When you see mid majors like Dayton, Creighton, San Diego St, and Gonzaga competing for titles, that tells me a lot of teams are a lot better.

 

[chugg21]

I think it‘s just harder to win. More teams have more talent. When you see mid majors like Dayton and Gonzaga competing for titles, that tells me a lot of teams are a lot better.

Certainly seems like a valid argument. Gonzaga is a bit different because at this point they are a powerhouse in almost every way and gets to dominate a weak conference. But the schools like Butler and Creighton that used to have major disadvantages have reached a point where they are bringing in high level 2nd tier recruits on a consistent basis and then in most cases have 4 years to build with them and that is a huge advantage over the high major schools who are retooling most years.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Certainly seems like a valid argument. Gonzaga is a bit different because at this point they are a powerhouse in almost every way and gets to dominate a weak conference. But the schools like Butler and Creighton that used to have major disadvantages have reached a point where they are bringing in high level 2nd tier recruits on a consistent basis and then in most cases have 4 years to build with them and that is a huge advantage over the high major schools who are retooling most years.

Right. And the bottom teams in the Top 25 had 11 losses. Seton Hall was supposedly a FF type team and they had 9 losses.

Kansas may have won it all, with two Wooden candidates, but I wouldn’t have been surprised to see them lose in the 3rd round either.

 

[Alsacs]

Certainly seems like a valid argument. Gonzaga is a bit different because at this point they are a powerhouse in almost every way and gets to dominate a weak conference. But the schools like Butler and Creighton that used to have major disadvantages have reached a point where they are bringing in high level 2nd tier recruits on a consistent basis and then in most cases have 4 years to build with them and that is a huge advantage over the high major schools who are retooling most years.

All Gonzaga has done is replace the UCLA or the second West Coast NC contender to go with Arizona from the Pac-12.
The Pac-12 has been down for a while. Oregon was the only Pac-12 team that made the Final Four from 2010 to 2019. That has helped Gonzaga get those kids from Canada and Seattle area.

College hoops had teams from non-P5 conferences compete. UNLV won a title in 90s. George Mason made a Final Four. The sport in general has gone down quality wise because the talent with professional abilities aren't stayed long in college. The 1980s everyone stayed multiple years except Magic Johnson in 1979 and Isiah Thomas in 1981. Every other stud except Moses Malone stayed in school 3 years.

Syracuse has been mediocre because our talent on the entire team has been down. We used to have players on the bench would sit for a year then get their chance. Now we play 7 because we need those 7 to be mediocre and not bottom out. Plus JB is a good coach with what he has to win games.
We have been a 8-8, 9-7 football team. Not pathetic but a not a contender. It's not going to change till we get better talent. The talent on the roster now isn't going to compete for the top of the ACC. We just have to hope to win enough games to get a chance to go and be a plucky team in the tournament and win a couple games there.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

All Gonzaga has done is replace the UCLA or the second West Coast NC contender to go with Arizona from the Pac-12.
The Pac-12 has been down for a while. Oregon was the only Pac-12 team that made the Final Four from 2010 to 2019. That has helped Gonzaga get those kids from Canada and Seattle area.

College hoops had teams from non-P5 conferences compete. UNLV won a title in 90s. George Mason made a Final Four. The sport in general has gone down quality wise because the talent with professional abilities aren't stayed long in college. The 1980s everyone stayed multiple years except Magic Johnson in 1979 and Isiah Thomas in 1981. Every other stud except Moses Malone stayed in school 3 years.

Syracuse has been mediocre because our talent on the entire team has been down. We used to have players on the bench would sit for a year then get their chance. Now we play 7 because we need those 7 to be mediocre and not bottom out. Plus JB is a good coach with what he has to win games.
We have been a 8-8, 9-7 football team. Not pathetic but a not a contender. It's not going to change till we get better talent. The talent on the roster now isn't going to compete for the top of the ACC. We just have to hope to win enough games to get a chance to go and be a plucky team in the tournament and win a couple games there.

I’d say the emergence of Virgina, Notre Dame and FSU has made the ACC a lot tougher. More good teams makes it’s harder to win. Throw in Duke, UNC and Louisville. Finishing 6th or 7th in the ACC ain’t that bad.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

I mean, even the biggest fans have to admit this is a problem and an unprecedented run in JB’s 44 year tenure. As for next season, I have no idea how good we’ll be.

Do our resources matter when Louisville, Arizona, Kansas, Oregon, USC, LSU, Auburn and Oklahoma State are paying kids $150.000 to attend their school? Billy Preston comes to mind. We never had a shot at that kid, and probably didn’t know it.

There’s this constant theme that JB can’t recruit, can’t connect with kids, they don’t want to play all zone, jb is too old. Maybe he doesn’t want to play the bag of cash game especially when the program is already on probation.

 

[the villager]

Good Players make good coaches. Do you think coach K,Cal,or Self could win more games with our players than JB. The hoops analysts that post here think we had one Great player Hughes one good player Marek and the rest average at best.JB has done more with less than the aforementioned coaches. I have my own reservations about some of the methods he uses but I don’t agree that he needs to go . The old adage be careful what you wish for may come to haunt you when he’s gone

 

[SU94]

The sport in general has gone down quality wise because the talent with professional abilities aren't stayed long in college. The 1980s everyone stayed multiple years except Magic Johnson in 1979 and Isiah Thomas in 1981. Every other stud except Moses Malone stayed in school 3 years.

This is why the NBA & NCAAB should move toward the baseball model. You can sign professionally after HS if you so choose, but if you don't, you cannot be re-drafted until three years later (I think that Juco players can sign after 2 years IIRC).

Yes, NCAAB would miss out on the Isiah Stewarts and Zions of the world, but they'd get to keep Carmelo, Johnny Flynn, Malachi and Ennis for three years.

 

[Horn88]

Do our resources matter when Louisville, Arizona, Kansas, Oregon, USC, LSU, Auburn and Oklahoma State are paying kids $150.000 to attend their school? Billy Preston comes to mind. We never had a shot at that kid, and probably didn’t know it.

There’s this constant theme that JB can’t recruit, can’t connect with kids, they don’t want to play all zone, jb is too old. Maybe he doesn’t want to play the bag of cash game especially when the program is already on probation.

This suggests that paying kids to come to your school is something new but the reality is it’s been going on for decades. That didn’t seem to prevent us from landing some of the top kids in the country in the past so I don’t think that’s a new variable that’s been introduced to the recruiting equation.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Good Players make good coaches. Do you think coach K,Cal,or Self could win more games with our players than JB. The hoops analysts that post here think we had one Great player Hughes one good player Marek and the rest average at best.JB has done more with less than the aforementioned coaches. I have my own reservations about some of the methods he uses but I don’t agree that he needs to go . The old adage be careful what you wish for may come to haunt you when he’s gone

Good coaches have to get good players. We hadn’t been doing that.
I do believe there are coaches who could have gotten more out of some of our recent teams. But, that’s not really the full point.
Your summation of “the hoops analysts” consensus is inaccurate.
Fine that you don’t agree that jb needs to go, but realistically, how long do you think he is going to be here? He was already scheduled to retire. He has already been photographed asleep in a gym. He already designates half a practice to the staff while he ‘overwatches,’ and it had been said for years that he was resistant to travel outside ‘the corridor’ to recruit. Do you know many people who are ‘as hungry, motivated, and energized’ at 70+ as they were from 30-50? It doesn’t matter “what you wish for,” when the reality is that we are going to have to replace him sooner rather than later. I don’t think anyone is seriously holding a belief that jb is going to be fired or leave under any circumstances before Buddy is done. So, what is the argument? Be careful?

 

[SU94]

This suggests that paying kids to come to your school is something new but the reality is it’s been going on for decades. That didn’t seem to prevent us from landing some of the top kids in the country in the past so I don’t think that’s a new variable that’s been introduced to the recruiting equation.

Horn88: We used to dabble in that game too. I don't know to what extent. Now we haven't, for the better part of a decade as the NCAA was almost literally in town. That is the primary reason we have downshifted. The sanctions are also part of the equation, as is JAB's age, Hop's Manifest Destiny, leaving the BE for the ACC, and our program's terrific ability to develop players who then depart earlier than anticipated.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

This suggests that paying kids to come to your school is something new but the reality is it’s been going on for decades. That didn’t seem to prevent us from landing some of the top kids in the country in the past so I don’t think that’s a new variable that’s been introduced to the recruiting equation.

Perhaps more kids have their hands out these days. The De Souza kid at Kansas got $20,000 and he's a 4-star kid. How are we getting kids like Billy Preston? USC and KU were offering 6 figures. Rawle Alkins? NYC kid we didn't even bother to recruit. He had his hand out. Naz Reid? He got paid at LSU, right? We are not getting these kids anymore. We thought we had Tucker and Quade Green. Until we didn't. Did Quade get paid?

 

[HoustonCuse]

I have no data but logic would tell you that we must have been paying players in the past, because everyone is and if you want to compete, you'd have to. Clearly UK and then Duke took that to new stratospheres since Cal got to UK. But yes, the NCAA being in our back pocket for 10 years had to cut off anything we were doing to truly compete for elite recruits. Just highlights how stupid it was to self report anything. If you want to point out any failings of the program it was to self report the drug testing stuff.

 

[RF2044]

I have no data but logic would tell you that we must have been paying players in the past, because everyone is and if you want to compete, you'd have to. Clearly UK and then Duke took that to new stratospheres since Cal got to UK. But yes, the NCAA being in our back pocket for 10 years had to cut off anything we were doing to truly compete for elite recruits. Just highlights how stupid it was to self report anything. If you want to point out any failings of the program it was to self report the drug testing stuff.

Not since the early 90s, when the NCAA first got on us. Since then our compliance department has prevented these types of shenanigans from occurring. Which is why we've targeted a different profile of players for two+ decades.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

Not since the early 90s, when the NCAA first got on us. Since then our compliance department has prevented these types of shenanigans from occurring. Which is why we've targeted a different profile of players for two+ decades.

Plus we have a couple strikes against us.

 

[Alsacs]

Not since the early 90s, when the NCAA first got on us. Since then our compliance department has prevented these types of shenanigans from occurring. Which is why we've targeted a different profile of players for two+ decades.

Wasn’t Jalen Brunson a 5 Star kid who wanted to come to SU?

I get we don’t go after the top 5 kids who are hard to get but you know we were recruiting fine under Hopkins.

We stopped recruiting like Syracuse in 2015 after Battle.

Battle was a 5 Star recruit.

Malachi/Lydon class was good.

Our problems now are 2016 onward that has very little to do with the points these people are saying.
I know you that but the narrative here is saying otherwise.

 

[RF2044]

Wasn’t Jalen Brunson a 5 Star kid who wanted to come to SU?

I get we don’t go after the top 5 kids who are hard to get but you know we were recruiting fine under Hopkins.

We stopped recruiting like Syracuse in 2015 after Battle.

Battle was a 5 Star recruit.

Malachi/Lydon class was good.

Our problems now are 2016 onward that has very little to do with the points these people are saying.
I know you that but the narrative here is saying otherwise.

I don't think that Battle was a 5-star recruit -- could be wrong.

But there is a difference between Tyus Battle and guys who are clear one-and-dones. Lydon was undervalued nationally, Richardson emerged as a McD's, but wasn't considered a one-and-done candidate until he blew up against UVa. McCullough was a borderline 4 star / 5 star, IIRC.

I think the main issue on that front has been that we're getting guys [or rather, "got" guys] who had an attractive athletic profile for the NBA, but who weren't good enough to have a high major impact for the most part. But given how the NBA drafts now, many of them became first round picks drafted on potential, and they were gone before they actualized said potential [for the most part -- obviously, a guy like Lydon contributed a lot to our F4 run]. It's like being stuck in the middle -- we've landed guys who are good enough to get drafted, but not good enough to put the team on their backs and take us to the next level.

 

[Horn88]

Perhaps more kids have their hands out these days. The De Souza kid at Kansas got $20,000 and he's a 4-star kid. How are we getting kids like Billy Preston? USC and KU were offering 6 figures. Rawle Alkins? NYC kid we didn't even bother to recruit. He had his hand out. Naz Reid? He got paid at LSU, right? We are not getting these kids anymore. We thought we had Tucker and Quade Green. Until we didn't. Did Quade get paid?

None of that is new though. It was always a myth that only the top 10-20 players get paid. All those guys you mentioned probably did get paid but that would have been the same case if they were in high school 10 or 20 years ago too.

And despite that we still got guys like Devo, Flynn, Donte, Dion, Fab, Rak I mean the list can go on.

 

[Alsacs]

I don't think that Battle was a 5-star recruit -- could be wrong.

But there is a difference between Tyus Battle and guys who are clear one-and-dones. Lydon was undervalued nationally, Richardson emerged as a McD's, but wasn't considered a one-and-done candidate until he blew up against UVa. McCullough was a borderline 4 star / 5 star, IIRC.

I think the main issue on that front has been that we're getting guys [or rather, "got" guys] who had an attractive athletic profile for the NBA, but who weren't good enough to have a high major impact for the most part. But given how the NBA drafts now, many of them became first round picks drafted on potential, and they were gone before they actualized said potential [for the most part -- obviously, a guy like Lydon contributed a lot to our F4 run]. It's like being stuck in the middle -- we've landed guys who are good enough to get drafted, but not good enough to put the team on their backs and take us to the next level.

He was a high 4 Star didn’t get the 5th Star so I was wrong.
He was a top 40 recruit though.

Malachi was a McD AA.
Lydon a 4 Star.

Those 3 were studs for us.

 

[Alsacs]

I don't think that Battle was a 5-star recruit -- could be wrong.

But there is a difference between Tyus Battle and guys who are clear one-and-dones. Lydon was undervalued nationally, Richardson emerged as a McD's, but wasn't considered a one-and-done candidate until he blew up against UVa. McCullough was a borderline 4 star / 5 star, IIRC.

I think the main issue on that front has been that we're getting guys [or rather, "got" guys] who had an attractive athletic profile for the NBA, but who weren't good enough to have a high major impact for the most part. But given how the NBA drafts now, many of them became first round picks drafted on potential, and they were gone before they actualized said potential [for the most part -- obviously, a guy like Lydon contributed a lot to our F4 run]. It's like being stuck in the middle -- we've landed guys who are good enough to get drafted, but not good enough to put the team on their backs and take us to the next level.

With the usage rates our best players get unless we have a lot of quality depth we should expect none of them to stay in school after that season.

These prospects have nothing else to prove in college and even if their draft stock isn’t super high they are finished products.
That is how modern college basketball players are going to think.

If MCW had started in 2012 instead of Scoop he might have left after his Fr. Year.

What we need to do is find more CJ Fair, Michael Gbinije type players.
To his credit Elijah was that type of player but he transferred and wasn’t going to stay in college for 5 years as he should go get paid he has a degree.

Our recruiting needs to bring in more quality players.
I don’t think 2021 will be good for us for guard prospects. We better get some wings and forwards as they will have playing time available in 2021.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

None of that is new though. It was always a myth that only the top 10-20 players get paid. All those guys you mentioned probably did get paid but that would have been the same case if they were in high school 10 or 20 years ago too.

And despite that we still got guys like Devo, Flynn, Donte, Dion, Fab, Rak I mean the list can go on.

but we couldn't pay them, which is why they went to Arizona, LSU, Kansas, Kentucky ,etc.

Think that list ended with Malachi about 5 years ago, which is when the NCAA hammered us. March, 2015.

 

[dasher]

He was a high 4 Star didn’t get the 5th Star so I was wrong.
He was a top 40 recruit though.

Malachi was a McD AA.
Lydon a 4 Star.

Those 3 were studs for us.

Actually, I think you are both correct. He was 5 star very early at one time. He dropped to 4 star for his sr year. And Lydon was well under rated, he was in the 80's. He was much better than that.

 

[dasher]

Wasn’t Jalen Brunson a 5 Star kid who wanted to come to SU?

I get we don’t go after the top 5 kids who are hard to get but you know we were recruiting fine under Hopkins.

We stopped recruiting like Syracuse in 2015 after Battle.

Battle was a 5 Star recruit.

Malachi/Lydon class was good.

Our problems now are 2016 onward that has very little to do with the points these people are saying.
I know you that but the narrative here is saying otherwise.

We really don't know that for sure. But when we ask JB about it, make sure we ask Calhoun about Ryan Gomes while we are at it.