Pete Thamel On State of SU Football

[Ozcuse]

any of them.. you dont think scoring matters? fix 2 spots and 4th and 1s or red zone drives early in the UNC game or the Liberty game or the Pitt game are huge.. We probably are up 2 scores in any of them if we could run just a little power.. do we not watch these games? just drives alone where we had the ball to make key plays and failed.

UNC game 4X
down 7-0 ball the 20 fail on 4th and 1
down 7-0 ball at unc 10 get a FG
down 7-3 ball at UNC 10 fail and then miss FG
down 7-3 ball at UNC 4 fail 3 times kick fg now its 6-7

Pitt game 3X
0-0 ball at pitt 35 no FG attempt and punt
0-0 ball at pitt 10 kick FG
down 14-10 ball at pitt 30.. can run throw INT

Duke game..

Su up 14-10 with the ball at the 22.. we ran 4 times twice needing 1 yd. we go up 21-10 at that point and you dont think that matters?

Liberty
7-7 ball at liberty 30 lose yds no fg / punt
down 14-7 ball at Liberty 5.. loss on downs.
down 28-14 start inside the 50. no runs throw INT


UNC we could with almost no real special plays be up at UNC 28-7.. thats all on the oline.
Pitt should have been up at worst 17-14 late
Duke easily be up 21-10 against at team that just cant throw without play action
Liberty should have been up 7 not down 7 and energy changes.

I’m sure there are Giants and Jets fans saying the same thing, 1-2 olinemen and we’re looking at the playoffs!

 

[007]

These are keys reasons why John will be successful in turning the football program around. It takes time to recover from the mess we were in. COVID has not helped things. But it is going to happen. John will get it done.

To use a quote from JW "it's like turning a battle ship...it takes time." There are things going on behind the scenes to help turn the ship.

 

[oldpinepoint]

I agree we will never have the biggest budget or the most staff. That is not realistic. Like John says, we need to do more with less. But I think it is realistic to have a budget in or close to the middle of the conference. I think we are making strides. COVID makes it hard to catch up.

But I think John understands the concept that you have to spend money to make strides for football better than his predecessor. I think he will listen to his head coach and the staff and take their input to ensure the money is spent wisely. And perhaps most importantly, I think John has the ability to raise money from donors, and convince the powers that be at the university to provide money, far, far better than previous SU ADs.

These are keys reasons why John will be successful in turning the football program around. It takes time to recover from the mess we were in. COVID has not helped things. But it is going to happen. John will get it done.

It will take time, we are talking about 2 decades of complete crap outside of a few seasons here and there to overcome.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Thamel doesn’t get that fundraising has been remarkable during this pandemic and we have our best recruiting class under Dino this cycle.
What is his problem.

Someone else mentioned it's the best class in 20 years, but that's misleading. It's still ranked next-to-last in the ACC.

It's not good enough.

 

[upperdeck]

I’m sure there are Giants and Jets fans saying the same thing, 1-2 olinemen and we’re looking at the playoffs!

the giants probably are. not sure on the Jets

 

[HRE Otto IV]

the giants probably are. not sure on the Jets

Nah, the Gmen don't need another lineman. If we can beat Dallas, Philly, and one more NFC East game it will be enough to win the division.

 

[cuse10]

What specifically do we lack from a recruiting operation?

(I have no doubt we’re lacking. I’m not questioning the assertion. I’m only curious to know what the opportunities look like.)

Legitimate pipelines. It's one thing to get players from South Florida, but helps making inroads with coaches and schools in the region. I don't know if they're doing this, but having some of those guys on retainer goes a long way in sending kids to your program or even being open to making their final cuts. It's something BEAR'S DAD has alluded to.

 

[dollarbill44]

Underestimate the guy who worked at ESPN at your own peril.

At the time I suspect Dino did ask for the moon and a part of that was getting his contract fully guaranteed. Call it a buyout at 100% or a fully guaranteed. At a point you can buy out a final year b/c that becomes feasible. I suspect both parties don't want to buy out anything right now. Dino isn't getting a dream job and Syracuse isn't firing him. On the margins Wildhack can stir stuff up with the recruiting angle.

I'm sure he knows plenty of coaches from his ESPN days that are whispering in his ear that recruiting is folly at Syracuse. It doesn't just have to be ranking. The idea the qb situation has been a mess can be a scenario where we aren't looking under the right rocks no matter what the ranking is.

Why would JW need to leak something to Thamel to get Dino to address recruiting when he can go to Dino at any time and discuss it without making either of them look bad? It just doesn't make any sense.

 

[dollarbill44]

Hold on a minute.

Which 2 games were we winning that we didn't?

There is only one game we weren't in going into the 4th quarter and that was Liberty. The others were there for the taking if the offense wasn't so bad that the defense got exhausted.

 

[OrangeMaNPD]

I'll echo what a few other posters have said after reading Thamel's article.

What exactly are our peer teams doing that is more "sophisticated" than us? More student interns to fire off funny memes? TikTok pages featuring Otto and Dino? More player development personnel? More coaches?

 

[Toga]

The new no sitting out a year transfer portal is going to be insane.

 

[FreakTalksAboutSU]

Someone else mentioned it's the best class in 20 years, but that's misleading. It's still ranked next-to-last in the ACC.

It's not good enough.

To your point... It’s important to note SU fans aren’t asking for the moon. There are a lot of bigger schools there. I get it. But give me top 10-11 consistently with a top half class every few years. We can work with that.

 

[elimunelson]

Why would JW need to leak something to Thamel to get Dino to address recruiting when he can go to Dino at any time and discuss it without making either of them look bad? It just doesn't make any sense.

He's framing the narrative here. I have no doubt JW speaks to the media off the record. I also have no doubt that JW probably loves Dino and wants him to succeed. That contract forces both of them to work together. The vultures are out right now after that loss and someone needs to send a smoke signal that the problem has to be fixed from within and that there is a potential issue with recruiting.

It's ok to say we have failed in certain spots. What's not ok is if you don't fix it or just blow the entire thing up. That's what DG and Nancy did in 2005. Rather than seeing if P could turn it around with structural fixes around him, they blew the entire thing to smithereens and then had nothing to rebuild.

JW is not dumb. He needs the proper narrative out there to get the supporters to buy in to next year and to see glimmers of hope

 

[RandomGuy]

Someone else mentioned it's the best class in 20 years, but that's misleading. It's still ranked next-to-last in the ACC.

It's not good enough.

2018's class was rated a point higher. All but 2016 ranked higher in the ACC. So it's pretty much the same. We're a developmental program- until we're not.

Addazio took the lowest rated linemen in the ACC, and made them the top Oline in the ACC. Oline is focus and developement, where you can get more out of that potential, especially when you don't have elite talent. Why BC ran that system, why the service academies run the option. (Even Freeze ran a wing T play...lol...)

We don't need to run either, but we do need to develop the line. No spring hurt us here.

 

[GoSU96]

Yep, have to do better at the LOS on both sides of the ball. OL will get a mulligan this year for all the injuries, and should see an instant upgrade with Dakota and Bleich.

DL has older guys in at least 5 of the 6 two deep roles. And it just seems like they're having little to no impact on the opponents running game. If the issue is no true NT, then they better go get at least two of them via transfer.

Yep, the lack of a true two gap nose in an odd man front defense is killer. Either a big guy or an unstoppable quick guy with great leverage that can shoot gaps and disrupt the backfield like Kevin Mitchell.

 

[PatMark]

That said, with all the changes, I believe our recruiting staff and budget are the smallest in the conference. That point is legit.

John Wildhack has helped make significant changes but more work needs to be done. Dino is not playing on a level playing field with the rest of the conference.

Slow day so I pulled up the online staff rosters for the schools Pete mentioned. I selected any one with operations/recruiting/personnel/creative video (recruiting) in their title to see the comparison. We are definitely behind the times. Interesting to see one of the schools on this list hiring former very successful high school coaches in these recruiting roles...

 

[nzm136]

Legitimate pipelines. It's one thing to get players from South Florida, but helps making inroads with coaches and schools in the region. I don't know if they're doing this, but having some of those guys on retainer goes a long way in sending kids to your program or even being open to making their final cuts. It's something BEAR'S DAD has alluded to.

I don’t think he meant just relationships.

I assumed it was analysts or something more tangible.

 

[syrBossHogg]

Slow day so I pulled up the online staff rosters for the schools Pete mentioned. I selected any one with operations/recruiting/personnel/creative video (recruiting) in their title to see the comparison. We are definitely behind the times. Interesting to see one of the schools on this list hiring former very successful high school coaches in these recruiting roles...

View attachment 189658

Wow. And I think one of the titles at SU was just recently added a year or two ago right?

 

[nzm136]

Slow day so I pulled up the online staff rosters for the schools Pete mentioned. I selected any one with operations/recruiting/personnel/creative video (recruiting) in their title to see the comparison. We are definitely behind the times. Interesting to see one of the schools on this list hiring former very successful high school coaches in these recruiting roles...

View attachment 189658

I think this is what I was asking about earlier.

That’s our gap. I wonder what it would cost to close, and I wonder how many wins fixing it would buy us.

The following is an admittedly dumb way to analyze that list, but it’s probably directionally accurate, and I truthfully don’t understand the nuances enough to be especially insightful, but Wake having more rows than us is a bad omen. I can only imagine what FSU, Clemson, etc. look like.

 

[GoSU96]

I think this is what I was asking about earlier.

That’s our gap. I wonder what it would cost to close, and I wonder how many wins fixing it would buy us.

The following is an admittedly dumb way to analyze that list, but it’s probably directionally accurate, and I truthfully don’t understand the nuances enough to be especially insightful, but Wake having more rows than us is a bad omen. I can only imagine what FSU, Clemson, etc. look like.

clemson had as many guys in golf shirts as helmets when they visited here last year

that should tell you something

 

[nzm136]

Wow. And I think one of the titles at SU was just recently added a year or two ago right?

How much could these guys possibly make?

I feel like we’ve dramatically underachieved in recruiting for years and years. I know we aren’t Alabama, so I get not benchmarking against Elito programs. But losing in the ranking to Pitt, WVU, BC, and Rutgers every year is an issue. I obviously lack visibility to speak intelligently about what’s happening, but it’s an anon Internet forum, so being credentialed is a mere “nice to have” (lol) Still, I can’t help but to wonder if we’re being penny wise and pound foolish.

 

[AAM62]

To use a quote from JW "it's like turning a battle ship...it takes time." There are things going on behind the scenes to help turn the ship.

like what? I've heard this said a ton and the ship keeps going down.

 

[hoopsupstate]

Sorry but what does this even mean? sophisticated?

Syracuse’s recruiting staff is one of the least sophisticated in the ACC, as Babers’ longtime assistant Roy Wittke is the new director of player personnel. Places like BC, Wake Forest and Rutgers – the schools Syracuse needs to beat — have invested in sophisticated operations. The Orange are lagging behind.

You can't state something like that without some explanation, and just because he says it doesn't make it so.

Thamel has no idea what he's talking about.

Sorry Pete, but BC and WF classes are nothing to write home about.

 

[orangeinohio]

I still can't believe that he wrote this.
There's nothing new in this mini-article other than an unsubstantiated claim about $17M.
My 14 year old could have written this.

 

[dollarbill44]

He's framing the narrative here. I have no doubt JW speaks to the media off the record. I also have no doubt that JW probably loves Dino and wants him to succeed. That contract forces both of them to work together. The vultures are out right now after that loss and someone needs to send a smoke signal that the problem has to be fixed from within and that there is a potential issue with recruiting.

It's ok to say we have failed in certain spots. What's not ok is if you don't fix it or just blow the entire thing up. That's what DG and Nancy did in 2005. Rather than seeing if P could turn it around with structural fixes around him, they blew the entire thing to smithereens and then had nothing to rebuild.

JW is not dumb. He needs the proper narrative out there to get the supporters to buy in to next year and to see glimmers of hope

Your theory about the origin of this article still doesn't make sense on multiple levels. First, it makes the SU athletic department look bad. Second, it makes the football coaching staff look bad. Third, the article doesn't help recruiting because of numbers one and two above.
If JW wants to address the issues with recruiting, he can do it more effectively by addressing it directly with Dino and not in a sneaky, roundabout way that makes SU look bad and doesn't engender support, but rather erodes it.
Now, if JW put out a statement today that counters the article by pointing out where Thamel is off or how SU has addressed/is addressing its weak spots, I might be inclined to believe your theory, but that would likely rub Thamel wrong.