Pete Thamel

[5OutFred]

ACC had great coaches, all of which were of a certain age. ACC leadership should have been more concerned and proactive about that. Not hard to see they'd all be gone within a close time period with the system completely changing. SEC leadership demanded the programs spend big on coaches.

A lot of "we'll be fine, we're X brand."

Hire unproven coaches, don't invest in the program, pay the price. It took the ACC years to see that the dollar is a whole lot stronger than arbitrary brand mystique. The league/schools have paid dearly.

 

[Scooch]

But then there is really no role for him, right? I mean, think about our offense right now if he doesn't have the ball in his hands, where would he be on the court? Our other wing players usually are in the corners waiting for kick outs that can't be JJ either (think Carlos and Taylor they just run to the corner). 6th man off the bench? Maybe but I doubt his ego would handle that. Inefficient ISO scorers just aren't the way to win anymore, they really don't have a role unless they are taking a high volume of shots.

I think a team can always find a use for a scorer, even if he isn't particularly efficient.

Look, the offense simply has to change. We need an elite, ball distributing PG and at least 2 more sharp shooters. That's assuming Moore stays (and Bell departs).

There's no way I'd be promising Starling a starting role at this point. But I'd like to have some roster continuity and I think he could be a worthwhile piece if Red can carve out a niche for him. I don't think he's a lost cause.

 

[Fly Rodder]

I think a team can always find a use for a scorer, even if he isn't particularly efficient.

Look, the offense simply has to change. We need an elite, ball distributing PG and at least 2 more sharp shooters. That's assuming Moore stays (and Bell departs).

There's no way I'd be promising Starling a starting role at this point. But I'd like to have some roster continuity and I think he could be a worthwhile piece if Red can carve out a niche for him. I don't think he's a lost cause.

JJ would be best used as a SF/wing 3rd guard in the mold of Kris Joseph and CJ Fair.

 

[cuseguy]

I think a team can always find a use for a scorer, even if he isn't particularly efficient.

Look, the offense simply has to change. We need an elite, ball distributing PG and at least 2 more sharp shooters. That's assuming Moore stays (and Bell departs).

There's no way I'd be promising Starling a starting role at this point. But I'd like to have some roster continuity and I think he could be a worthwhile piece if Red can carve out a niche for him. I don't think he's a lost cause.

Tend to think Starling is gone if he isn’t starting next year, and I fully understand your thinking. What may happen is we land a top PG and Starling plays the 2. That means Moore probably transfers.

 

[tbonezone]

just in case anyone has their head in the sand a reminder. Conferences are exploding ! UCLA is in the big ten . and the ACC has 1 ranked team in the AP top 25. compound that with the fact we are at bottom 4 of 18 teams in said conference.

 

[Cuse4455]

JJ starling is by far the worst Defender I've ever seen in high level basketball. He's basically a Student manager during practice on defense. Atleast Carlos steals the ball once in a while lol

 

[hoopsupstate]

This is the correct way to go, I would keep Moore over JJ. Cheaper next year, more years can mold into the program more etc etc etc just can do more things with him compared to JJ, especially at the state of our program so I would value Moore over JJ to help build a foundation of the program.

But but but but Red needs to win to keep his job so I think he would value JJ over Moore because I think he would think JJ gives him a better chance of winning a game tomorrow.

Freeman is a wildcard I would lean towards him being gone but crazier things have happened but if he is back it will take a big bag and a good chunk of our NIL budget I doubt he stays on the cheap again.

You’re complaining about JJ’s defense and you think keeping Moore is a better option? JJ has faults, but he’s averaging 18 points in the ACC. Choppa started several games and couldn’t score to save his backend and his defense is ten times worse than JJ. I don’t care if he’s a freshman. Like Pitino says, you go old.

 

[Red2003]

I took a shot at this a couple days ago.

We have Anthony and Saddiq White coming, Fennell and that 3 star forward named Womack who looks kind of like another Chris Bell.

Guards: JJ (?), Cuffe (?), Moore (?), Anthony (FR), Fennell (FR)
Forwards: Bell (?), Freeman (?), White (FR), Womack (FR)
Center: Majstorovic

Four new guys, plus we have to keep some of this year's guys to have a full roster.

Let's say we can afford 5 guys in the portal (extra money from the Anthonys).

Appreciate the write up. Here's some underlying themes.

-I think the staff was inept last year with their portal timing, no need to beat a dead horse. They need to be fast identifying who's out and our targets. They got played, outbid, lost their best player, got fleeced by Eddie late,

The day after we get bounced from the ACCT Kline and Autry need to sit down with every player that has eligibility left. They either are all in to come back or not. If they want to test the waters then we put their name in the portal for them. Outside of Freeman which may be worth the negotiation, the others aren't. Maybe they throw JJ a small increase as a value play but nowhere near what he'll get from an SEC team.

-Get out there early with our targets. Get our 1 and 5 locked down and on campus. Get them in a room with Melo or Kiyan or Sadiq or anything that gives us an advantage. The supporting role players can come later.

 

[phil77]

You’re complaining about JJ’s defense and you think keeping Moore is a better option? JJ has faults, but he’s averaging 18 points in the ACC. Choppa started several games and couldn’t score to save his backend and his defense is ten times worse than JJ. I don’t care if he’s a freshman. Like Pitino says, you go old.

One is a Freshman/Sophomore and one is a Junior/Senior. One you can mold in the program, and working on changing the culture. One has been here and is a part of the culture problem. So yes, if my job didn't depend on it and I was trying to do what is best for the program and change the culture and get things on the right track, I would keep Moore over JJ. Also like I said, Red has to win so he would probably pick JJ.

 

[Fly Rodder]

points per game is a useless statistic.

 

[Cusefan0307]

You’re complaining about JJ’s defense and you think keeping Moore is a better option? JJ has faults, but he’s averaging 18 points in the ACC. Choppa started several games and couldn’t score to save his backend and his defense is ten times worse than JJ. I don’t care if he’s a freshman. Like Pitino says, you go old.

Splitting hairs. Ones is going to be a sophomore and one is going to be a senior. The chances of the senior improving at this point are slim to none.

 

[Red2003]

Coaches getting fired after two years is not unusual; someone posted a pretty long list in another thread.

The whole "nobody will come here due to the short leash" thing... isn't a thing. In P5 ball, it's perform or move on. It's not like firing Red will be a fickle move; it's been a complete faceplant, and people citing 20 wins in season 1 where we didn't even sniff the tourney shows how bad it is rather than how good Red can be. If anything, his termination would demonstrate the commitment to the program that a strong candidate would appreciate.

Any coach worried about the former guy getting fired after two years... shouldn't be the next guy.

ok I hear you. If Autry loses out he will be exactly 500. Prob best to look at D1 hoops coaches.

I'm not saying I like Autry just want to know if there has actually ever been a D1 hoops coach fired after less than 3 years with a winning or 500 record?

 

[Cusefan0307]

points per game is a useless statistic.

Career Offensive Efficiency by TS%:

Brandon Triche .542
Joe Girard .547
Buddy Boeheim .538
Tyus Battle .537
Elijah Hughes .562
Dion .551

JJ Starling this year .500 and .507 for his career.

 

[phil77]

ok I hear you. If Autry loses out he will be exactly 500. Prob best to look at D1 hoops coaches.

I'm not saying I like Autry just want to know if there has actually ever been a D1 hoops coach fired after less than 3 years with a winning or 500 record?

You can also say this is the first off-season that he had total control of the program and didn't have JB's players and was totally unprepared and looked completely out of his depth not only in acquiring talent but coaching on the court.

 

[Red2003]

You can also say this is the first off-season that he had total control of the program and didn't have JB's players and was totally unprepared and looked completely out of his depth not only in acquiring talent but coaching on the court.

Don’t put those words in my mouth. People around here freak out.

 

[Cusefan95]

A lot of "we'll be fine, we're X brand."

Hire unproven coaches, don't invest in the program, pay the price. It took the ACC years to see that the dollar is a whole lot stronger than arbitrary brand mystique. The league/schools have paid dearly.

About 20 years ago, I worked for a company where the CEO talked about the importance of living up to the stellar reputation the company had built. He told a group of us that every day he'd wake up, look himself in the mirror and say "Jim, don't make today the day you [screw] the whole thing up". A chronic issue everywhere is that many leaders don't have that mentality, assume "brand" is a durable thing and not something that has to be fought for, earned, and protected every day. I suspect a lot of leaders at ACC schools would like "do-overs" of decisions they didn't put as much thought, time, or investment into that they should have, because they assumed things would work out "the way they always have for us".

 

[Fly Rodder]

I suspect a lot of leaders at ACC schools would like "do-overs" of decisions they didn't put as much thought, time, or investment into that they should have, because they assumed things would work out "the way they always have for us".

Of all the schools claiming to be unprepared, UNC surprises me. It’s not like they managed to keep their fringey NBA players for 4-5-6 seasons instead of 1-2 just because of the academic reputation of UNC. They had a system in place and yet somehow were scrambling when Ol Roy hung ‘em up.

 

[phreddie]

just in case anyone has their head in the sand a reminder. Conferences are exploding ! UCLA is in the big ten . and the ACC has 1 ranked team in the AP top 25. compound that with the fact we are at bottom 4 of 18 teams in said conference.

Clemson & Louisville aren't in the ACC?

 

[Janner]

I think this clip is super important. Not saying kids on SU don’t play hard or try hard, but the blowouts and what not, doesn’t seem like they hate to lose. I know for the 5000th time the coaching could be better, but I’ve heard what’s said over and over to these kids about being tougher and everything like that so that has been discussed at length. I’ve seen the full contact drills at practice to build some toughness. The kids seem okay with losing. They seem okay with letting teams score 97 points on them. I may be out of line with this, but that’s what I see. They are okay with losing especially because they are getting paid now….

I agree, and the kids coming out with no fire to play is as much coaching as anything else. Thats on Red. As a coach a big part of the process is getting them mentally ready and motivated.

 

[hoopsupstate]

Career Offensive Efficiency by TS%:

Brandon Triche .542
Joe Girard .547
Buddy Boeheim .538
Tyus Battle .537
Elijah Hughes .562
Dion .551

JJ Starling this year .500 and .507 for his career.

Those other players all have something in common. They all played along side much better players.

 

[orangecuse]

You're mostly right with the "okay with losing" point. Any athlete who takes the court feels better when winning. But there's a difference in today's collegiate world than generations back. Kids have no ownership or loyalty to a program. There may be a few isolated exceptions, but kids have no pride in identifying with a school or carrying on with it's traditions. It's only the "fans" who put the school's success first and foremost.

Personally, I'll always hope that the program is successful. But I've stopped being a fan of the sport because of the way that the portal and NIL have changed the whole dynamic of the system.

Nail meet head. Except, for the fact that these "kids" are legal adults, albeit very young ones at that.

On that very young adult premise, imagine being in such a dream type position at such an age, where the reality is one of yet attaining much actual tangible accomplishment, etc., however, still being able to, let's just say, finagle a payout well above your present skill level. And, also living in a world that when the 'going gets tough'... just run/bolt to the path of lessor resistance, however, still maintaining at least the equivalent pay, if not most likely, even more. Quite a new world for such fortunate ones, especially now that the genie is out of the bottle.

Of course, it's possible, if not probable, for the genie to lose a bit of its magic as it ages over the years ahead, however, it isn't ever going back in. Perhaps, some of the, what can my school do for me vs. what can I do for my school MO, etc. will recalibrate somewhat, once, inevitably, the current system that enables it does beforehand.

 

[FrancoPizza]

What leverage does red have in regards to a buyout?!? How in gods name does he even have one??? What other programs were wanting his services that badly where we had to offer a buy out. Fireable offense for whomever made that deal. Wow.

If there’s one silver lining - red’s criminal buyout has unified this place, never have so many fans reacted with the same level of horror and shock.

 

[Bulldog04]

I agree, and the kids coming out with no fire to play is as much coaching as anything else. Thats on Red. As a coach a big part of the process is getting them mentally ready and motivated.

So where is player accountability? Every single thing has talked about Red Red Red. This isn’t me standing up for him but for someone who played division 1 sports, I never blamed my coach once for anything. These kids have to take accountability for something. JJ refuses to play defense. He doesn’t try to get better. I’ve seen practice, it’s taught, it’s instructed, it’s beyond apparent the coaches try, but JJ cares more about scoring. He’s soft on defense and always has been. So that’s also on Red? Cmon stop blaming the coach for every single thing. These kids getting paid DONT CARE if they lose. No matter what someone can say 100000 times over, the kid either wants to or not and we have seen they don’t care about playing defense or losing games

 

[Cusefan0307]

So where is player accountability? Every single thing has talked about Red Red Red. This isn’t me standing up for him but for someone who played division 1 sports, I never blamed my coach once for anything. These kids have to take accountability for something. JJ refuses to play defense. He doesn’t try to get better. I’ve seen practice, it’s taught, it’s instructed, it’s beyond apparent the coaches try, but JJ cares more about scoring. He’s soft on defense and always has been. So that’s also on Red? Cmon stop blaming the coach for every single thing. These kids getting paid DONT CARE if they lose. No matter what someone can say 100000 times over, the kid either wants to or not and we have seen they don’t care about playing defense or losing games

Sounds like we need to recruit guys who give a sht on that end. Agree with the JJ opinion. Some guys take it personally when they get scored on. Other guys just go through the motions.

 

[cusefan88]

So where is player accountability? Every single thing has talked about Red Red Red. This isn’t me standing up for him but for someone who played division 1 sports, I never blamed my coach once for anything. These kids have to take accountability for something. JJ refuses to play defense. He doesn’t try to get better. I’ve seen practice, it’s taught, it’s instructed, it’s beyond apparent the coaches try, but JJ cares more about scoring. He’s soft on defense and always has been. So that’s also on Red? Cmon stop blaming the coach for every single thing. These kids getting paid DONT CARE if they lose. No matter what someone can say 100000 times over, the kid either wants to or not and we have seen they don’t care about playing defense or losing games

The next portal step for a lot of teams is trying to discern how much guys will care vs the vast majority likely just waiting for a check. Autry hasn't done himself a lot of favors but I do agree the players mentality has played a part.