Player of the last decade

[albanycuse]

You guys make very good points for melo as player of the last decade, if i restrusture my criteria an subtract years of service , looks like hes the fav from this thread.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

You guys make very good points for melo as player of the last decade, if i restrusture my criteria an subtract years of service , looks like hes the fav from this thread.

Still a good question and discussion.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

A sizable percentage of posters here would disagree with that.

Could you imagine the detractors if he still didn't have a title? It would be Lebron level hatred.

 

[br801]

Could you imagine the detractors if he still didn't have a title? It would be Lebron level hatred.

You're not exaggerating. He would be the "can't win the big one" poster boy and might already have headed off into the sunset.

 

[moqui]

Again, the original post was an "all things considered, signature players of the program" standard, not necessarily the best player on the floor standard. Here are my top 5:

1. Kris - the 2003 national title notwithstanding, Kris' four year run is one of the greatest in the entire history of the program. If the late 80s was the Golden Age, this is the Silver Age (while 96 and 03 were one-off runs). Kris himself was not a transcendant player, but he is the guy who reps that run (and, oh by the way, he is one of only 16 players all time to notch 1400+ points and 600+ boards). Basketball is a team game, and the sustained excellence of the team for all four of his years (fourth most wins in the nation over that period, trailing only Duke, Kansas and Kentucky) nudges him over the top, IMO

2. Carmelo - an unquestionably transcendent player whose brilliance and post-career giving overcome the fact that he played just a single year

3. Hakim Warrick - the #2 guy on the title team, a consensus All American (sorry, General, but he is only a 1 time consensus AA), one of just three Orange all time to get 2000 points and 1000 boards.

4. GMac - the author of several memorable moments in school history and, while highly overrated on the court, he remains massively popular off the court, and he serves as a familion for every short white chucker out there - which is the majority of every team's fan base.

5. Devo - one from the dark side. Like it or not, Syracuse basketball has a shadow to it that has to be acknowledged, and Eric is the best representative of that. Also, after the hangover following the national title, Devo was the first McD AA to join the program (boning Tom Izzo in the process) and kicked off the best string of highly rated national recruits in two decades.

 

[Knicks411]

Gotta go with Melo.

But,

If he stayed four years, he might have been the greatest player ever to play college basketball, who knows

Not in a million years. He wasn't the undisputed best player in college his freshmen year or anything.

I know he didn't play as a frosh, but Kareem went for 30-15 as a soph and was the player of the year. I'm pretty sure he would've done something similar to that as a frosh.

 

[albanycuse]

Again, the original post was an "all things considered, signature players of the program" standard, not necessarily the best player on the floor standard. Here are my top 5:

1. Kris - the 2003 national title notwithstanding, Kris' four year run is one of the greatest in the entire history of the program. If the late 80s was the Golden Age, this is the Silver Age (while 96 and 03 were one-off runs). Kris himself was not a transcendant player, but he is the guy who reps that run (and, oh by the way, he is one of only 16 players all time to notch 1400+ points and 600+ boards). Basketball is a team game, and the sustained excellence of the team for all four of his years (fourth most wins in the nation over that period, trailing only Duke, Kansas and Kentucky) nudges him over the top, IMO

Kris played his best here coming off the bench his soph year imo, we never won anything except the be title. Good player but not # 1 or in my top 3. But i like fact that we dont always have to agree on subjects here.

 

[moqui]

Kris played his best here coming off the bench his soph year imo, we never won anything except the be title.

I'd say that is a pretty big "except" . . . a conference regular season title is the second biggest honor a team can earn, second only to the NCAA title.

All Kris did was win. He was a key contributor to 2 teams that won BE titles, attained the #1 national rank, earned #1 NCAAT seeds (only the 2nd and 3rd SU teams to have done so, btw, and the first in the 64+ team era), and won 30+ games. As a senior, he was captain and leading scorer on a team that won a Big East record 17 games, a school record 34 games, was ranked #1 for a school record 7 consecutive weeks, and advanced beyond the Sweet 16 for just the 5th time in school history.

 

[Gabjon]

I'd say that is a pretty big "except" . . . a conference regular season title is the second biggest honor a team can earn, second only to the NCAA title.

All Kris did was win. He was a key contributor to 2 teams that won BE titles, attained the #1 national rank, earned #1 NCAAT seeds (only the 2nd and 3rd SU teams to have done so, btw, and the first in the 64+ team era), and won 30+ games. As a senior, he was captain and leading scorer on a team that won a Big East record 17 games, a school record 34 games, was ranked #1 for a school record 7 consecutive weeks, and advanced beyond the Sweet 16 for just the 5th time in school history.

After next year Brandon will supersede Kris in wins and team accomplishments, so will he go to the head of your list? And what about Scoop he was on three of those teams and had just as big of a role as Kris. Kris barely played freshman year while Scoop redshirted both practiced yet Kris is number 1 and Scoop's not in the top 5?

 

[moqui]

After next year Brandon will supersede Kris in wins and team accomplishments, so will he go to the head of your list? And what about Scoop he was on three of those teams and had just as big of a role as Kris. Kris barely played freshman year while Scoop redshirted both practiced yet Kris is number 1 and Scoop's not in the top 5?

yes, next year Brandon will likely supersede Kris, especially if, as expected, the Orange have another highly successful season and make another deep tournament run . . . I didn't put Scoop on because his freshman year was so poor and because of his off court issues, but remember, at the end of next season the 2003 title will no longer be within the last 10 years, so I will drop both Carmelo and GMac completely off the list, making room for new faces

 

[HOFCeluck]

Again, the original post was an "all things considered, signature players of the program" standard, not necessarily the best player on the floor standard. Here are my top 5:

1. Kris - the 2003 national title notwithstanding, Kris' four year run is one of the greatest in the entire history of the program. If the late 80s was the Golden Age, this is the Silver Age (while 96 and 03 were one-off runs). Kris himself was not a transcendant player, but he is the guy who reps that run (and, oh by the way, he is one of only 16 players all time to notch 1400+ points and 600+ boards). Basketball is a team game, and the sustained excellence of the team for all four of his years (fourth most wins in the nation over that period, trailing only Duke, Kansas and Kentucky) nudges him over the top, IMO

2. Carmelo - an unquestionably transcendent player whose brilliance and post-career giving overcome the fact that he played just a single year

3. Hakim Warrick - the #2 guy on the title team, a consensus All American (sorry, General, but he is only a 1 time consensus AA), one of just three Orange all time to get 2000 points and 1000 boards.

4. GMac - the author of several memorable moments in school history and, while highly overrated on the court, he remains massively popular off the court, and he serves as a familion for every short white chucker out there - which is the majority of every team's fan base.

5. Devo - one from the dark side. Like it or not, Syracuse basketball has a shadow to it that has to be acknowledged, and Eric is the best representative of that. Also, after the hangover following the national title, Devo was the first McD AA to join the program (boning Tom Izzo in the process) and kicked off the best string of highly rated national recruits in two decades.

You seem to be selectively penalizing players in your rankings. Kris Joseph was pretty overrrated and arguably never the best player on any of his four teams (Flynn, Johnson, Jackson, Waiters)

 

[stone567]

Player of the Decade:

Hakeem Warrick - Lets not forget he was a two time first team All-American (something Carmelo never was), Big East Player of the Year (something Carmelo never was), as well as a champion. I cant believe more people have not mentioned him. I really dont think there is a close second for this award.

1st Team of the Decade:

Carmelo Anthony -Points off for only playing one year, but plenty of points for the quality of that one year.

Andy Rautins - Played all four years. Had 3 very good years. His last year was a special one, in my opinion. Averaged something like 13 5 5 and 2 steals. Did everything, and was as good a zone defender as Syracuse has ever had. Plus he is one of the very few players I'd want to see come back as a coach which is about the highest compliment you can pay a player.

Gerry McNamara - Frustratingly inconsistent, but his highs top any other player in SU history. Actually did come back as a coach, to my surprise.

Arinze Onuaku - Bad free throw shooting had him really under-rated for a while, but everyone saw how much we missed him when he was out. The most unstoppable low post scorer Syracuse has ever had.

Scoop Jardine - Was the point guard for two 1 seeds. Last year he formed 1/3 of the best back court in the country. Massively under-rated and another player I'd love to see come back as a coach some day.

Honorable Mention:

Dion Waiters - In my opinion he was the best guard in the country last year, and I haven't thought that about a Syracuse player since Sherman Douglas. I thought long and hard about including him on the 1st team but declined because he only gave one really good season compared to the 3 seasons we got from everybody but Carmelo on the 1st team.

Wes Johnson - Only a one year player, but he was a real difference maker in that one year.

Eric Devendorf - If he stayed for his final year of eligibility he may have been Syracuse's all time leading scorer and would have had to been included on the 1st team. I always thought his reputation for being a terrible defender was over-blown. He was never a great defender, but the truth is more teams picked on Flynn than Devendorf simply because Flynn was so short.

Jonny Flynn - I debated not including him because in my opinion he really only gave have a year of top quality play before leaving early, but I have to give due respect to a guy who was picked 6 in the draft.

Demetrius Nichols - Only had one really great year in his career, but what a year is was. He lead the Big East in scoring and shot the lights out. Was a solid contributor as a junior as well.

Cannot argue with much of this list. I'd switch Hakim with Carmelo for reasons I have indicated earlier in this thread, but Warrick was awesome. Not a big Scoop fan. Might switch him with Devendorf or Wes. But, a great list.

 

[stone567]

I'd love to hear your definition of a transcendent player.

Pearl Washington, Derrick Coleman, Sherman Douglas, Billy Owens, David Bing, Lawrence Moten, John Wallace, Carmelo Anthony. Anyone of those players were transcendent players. Superior talent, dominant play, great athletes, Syracuse legends.

 

[stone567]

Recruiting picked up after Hop and Troy Weaver took over the recruiting from Bernie Fine. Troy recruited Melo and while Roberts, Nichols, and Watkins had disappointing careers they were all highly rated players. Elite programs win NCs and compete for NCs and it is never about one player it's about the program. The program didn't start on 4/7/03

Troy Weaver was a great recruiter and Hop has become a very good recruiter. They both deserve a tremendous amount of credit,as does JB. You can argue from today until tomorrow who deserves the credit. But the fact is that the recruiting is now at the same level at it was before probation in the 90's. I attribute a lot of that to the great recruiting by some very good coaches, but winning in 2003 and Carmelo's impact on the program were also very important ingredients.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Pearl Washington, Derrick Coleman, Sherman Douglas, Billy Owens, David Bing, Lawrence Moten, John Wallace, Carmelo Anthony. Anyone of those players were transcendent players. Superior talent, dominant play, great athletes, Syracuse legends.

Is it the athletics thing that you don't like about GMac? Or was it just shot selection? I concur with your list of players - those were the greats. I also don't think that's what the original question was. But enough of beating this dead horse.

 

[Gabjon]

Troy Weaver was a great recruiter and Hop has become a very good recruiter. They both deserve a tremendous amount of credit,as does JB. You can argue from today until tomorrow who deserves the credit. But the fact is that the recruiting is now at the same level at it was before probation in the 90's. I attribute a lot of that to the great recruiting by some very good coaches, but winning in 2003 and Carmelo's impact on the program were also very important ingredients.

I agree that there is an impact but the level in which Melo is getting credit for what is happening now is out of hand. Scoop recruited Dion how much credit does Scoop deserve? The Melo center is great but Carmelo only donated 3 out of the 19 million it took to build, and it probably would have gotten done regardless. The name adds value no question I just don't agree to the amount of value giving to Melo as it relates to current day recruiting.

 

[moqui]

You seem to be selectively penalizing players in your rankings. Kris Joseph was pretty overrrated and arguably never the best player on any of his four teams (Flynn, Johnson, Jackson, Waiters)

OK, that's a fair reading, especially if you are inclined toward McNamania . . . but in my defense, I would point out that GMac was never the best player on his teams, either (regardless of what his fanboys - and coach - thought, that would be Melo, Hak, Nichols, Nichols). My point is that the last 4 years have been the greatest run in SU history, and Kris is the only common denominator (Scoop missed the first of those four as a redshirt; his own freshman year was an NIT season). GMac wasn't even the best guard on the Title team, then had his limited talents misread and mismanaged by JB that resulted in the decline in the program that we have only come out of . . . in the Kris Joseph era.

 

[OttoMets]

The frustrating thing about Gerry is that he had really terrible shot selection. The guy scored a lot of points but he also took a ton of really bad shots.

And I don't want to hear that he had to take those shots (he didn't) or that he didn't have any talent around him (he played with three guys that have played in the NBA) and that made his awful shot selection excusable or that he made enough of them to make it ok (his shooting percentages really weren't very good).

I also don't want to hear people getting upset over the recognition of this flaw in his game. It doesn't take anything away from the things he did accomplish. He was a good player, but not a transcendent one.

Good points. Hate the constant apologism for the bad shot selection (and for his all-time snarkiest interview after the A&M loss).

The 2006 Big East Tournament was awesome; the regular season that preceded it was not. Difficult to deify a guy who was the senior captain on that squad - the team known for getting booed off the court against Cincinnati, no-showing against Bucknell at home, and getting beaten by five touchdowns against DePaul at a time when an NCAA bid looked to be in question.

Kid was a good college player. Also had flaws. Not sure why stating that makes so many fans fly off the handle.

Best of the decade: Carmelo...Hakim.....rest of the pack.

 

[Gabjon]

OK, that's a fair reading, especially if you are inclined toward McNamania . . . but in my defense, I would point out that GMac was never the best player on his teams, either (regardless of what his fanboys - and coach - thought, that would be Melo, Hak, Nichols, Nichols). My point is that the last 4 years have been the greatest run in SU history, and Kris is the only common denominator (Scoop missed the first of those four as a redshirt; his own freshman year was an NIT season). GMac wasn't even the best guard on the Title team, then had his limited talents misread and mismanaged by JB that resulted in the decline in the program that we have only come out of . . . in the Kris Joseph era.

Wow! If Gmac was not the best player on his teams it would have been (Melo, Hak, Hak, Nichols) but Gmac the senior was better than Nichols the junior. Nichols had more upside but it did not develop by his junior year. Furthermore the weakness of those team were they have no one who could take their man off of the dribble. Josh Wright was suppose to be that guy but we know how that ended, Devo was there Gmac's senior year but he was too wild as a freshman to take that role on full time. Consequently Gmac was forced into trying to take people off the dribble which was never his strength and it resulted in a lot of tough off balanced (bad) shots.

 

[OttoMets]

Wow! If Gmac was not the best player on his teams it would have been (Melo, Hak, Hak, Nichols) but Gmac the senior was better than Nichols the junior. Nichols had more upside but it did not develop by his junior year. Furthermore the weakness of those team were they have no one who could take their man off of the dribble. Josh Wright was suppose to be that guy but we know how that ended, Devo was there Gmac's senior year but he was too wild as a freshman to take that role on full time. Consequently Gmac was forced into trying to take people off the dribble which was never his strength and it resulted in a lot of tough off balanced (bad) shots.

Numbers don't tell the whole story, but Nichols's 2006 stats trump McNamara's in just about everything other than scoring. Nichols certainly had developed by his junior year. http://www.orangehoops.org/2005-2006.htm

It may be the case that McNamara struggled because he was forced (I dunno if "forced" is the right word - how about "coached"?) to do things he wasn't good at (like take people off the dribble), but doesn't that support the argument that he was limited? If his team needed him to penetrate and score and he wasn't able to, that's surely not a positive thing.

It's pretty difficult to argue that McNamara was the best player on any of his teams (2006 was close, but he shot so much worse than Nichols in similar minutes); if so, "player of the decade" is a bit of a reach. His shooting numbers are just so pedestrian.

 

[moqui]

Wow! If Gmac was not the best player on his teams it would have been (Melo, Hak, Hak, Nichols) but Gmac the senior was better than Nichols the junior. Nichols had more upside but it did not develop by his junior year. Furthermore the weakness of those team were they have no one who could take their man off of the dribble. Josh Wright was suppose to be that guy but we know how that ended, Devo was there Gmac's senior year but he was too wild as a freshman to take that role on full time. Consequently Gmac was forced into trying to take people off the dribble which was never his strength and it resulted in a lot of tough off balanced (bad) shots.

I completely disagree. I said at the time - and was heavily criticized for it then as I will be now - that Nichols was the best player on the team Gerry's senior year. I think one of the greatest failings of JB as a coach was his unwillingness to acknowledge Gerry's limitations and trying to make him the focus of that offense. The reason that team was sub-.500 in conference play for the first time in 25 years amd was NIT bound before the BET miracle is that JB subjugated the superior talents of Nichols (and probably Devo, as well) to his surrogate son. That team had the talent to be much better than they were, IMO.

 

[RF2044]

I completely disagree. I said at the time - and was heavily criticized for it then as I will be now - that Nichols was the best player on the team Gerry's senior year. I think one of the greatest failings of JB as a coach was his unwillingness to acknowledge Gerry's limitations and trying to make him the focus of that offense. The reason that team was sub-.500 in conference play for the first time in 25 years amd was NIT bound before the BET miracle is that JB subjugated the superior talents of Nichols (and probably Devo, as well) to his surrogate son. That team had the talent to be much better than they were, IMO.

It really is pretty amazing how poorly we recruited [relatively speaking] in the period immediately following the 2003 national championship. The next several years featured teams with tremendous flaws. '04 didn't have a complimentary perimeter threat at 2/3 to space the court opposite GMac, '05 team played Pace out of position at the 3 and we got exploited a lot on the backboards, '06 team never gelled, '07 team lacked a real lead guard, etc.

We landed some highly rated players, but many of them didn't pan out as expected. Obviously Devo and Nichols reached their potential, but other highly rated kids didn't live up to the billing. TRob was a warrior, but his skill level never came close to approaching his athleticism. Watkins was actually a solid player for us and a true defensive force, but never developed any low post offense. We got nothing out of the Wright brothers. Mayben busted and never ended up here.

Pretty amazing that two of the BEST players from that group--Rautins and Onuaku--are probably the two least heralded recruits we brought in. And pretty telling, frankly.

 

[OttoMets]

I completely disagree. I said at the time - and was heavily criticized for it then as I will be now - that Nichols was the best player on the team Gerry's senior year. I think one of the greatest failings of JB as a coach was his unwillingness to acknowledge Gerry's limitations and trying to make him the focus of that offense. The reason that team was sub-.500 in conference play for the first time in 25 years amd was NIT bound before the BET miracle is that JB subjugated the superior talents of Nichols (and probably Devo, as well) to his surrogate son. That team had the talent to be much better than they were, IMO.

So you're saying that the 6'8" guy who hits 42% of his shots should shoot more often than the 5'11" guy who hit 35% of his shots?

 

[moqui]

So you're saying that the 6'8" guy who hits 42% of his shots should shoot more often than the 5'11" guy who hit 35% of his shots?

call me crazy, I know

 

[RF2044]

I completely disagree. I said at the time - and was heavily criticized for it then as I will be now - that Nichols was the best player on the team Gerry's senior year. I think one of the greatest failings of JB as a coach was his unwillingness to acknowledge Gerry's limitations and trying to make him the focus of that offense. The reason that team was sub-.500 in conference play for the first time in 25 years amd was NIT bound before the BET miracle is that JB subjugated the superior talents of Nichols (and probably Devo, as well) to his surrogate son. That team had the talent to be much better than they were, IMO.

I remember when you started posting under the Moqui handle [don't remember your previous ID, if you had one], and mistakenly pegging you as a GMac-hater early on. But once you strip the emotion / passion from it and boil the numbers down, your position made perfect sense. You were right then, and you're right now.