Player of the last decade

[moqui]

It really is pretty amazing how poorly we recruited [relatively speaking] in the period immediately following the 2003 national championship. The next several years featured teams with tremendous flaws. '04 didn't have a complimentary perimeter threat at 2/3 to space the court opposite GMac, '05 team played Pace out of position at the 3 and we got exploited a lot on the backboards, '06 team never gelled, '07 team lacked a real lead guard, etc.

We landed some highly rated players, but many of them didn't pan out as expected. Obviously Devo and Nichols reached their potential, but other highly rated kids didn't live up to the billing. TRob was a warrior, but his skill level never came close to approaching his athleticism. Watkins was actually a solid player for us and a true defensive force, but never developed any low post offense. We got nothing out of the Wright brothers. Mayben busted and never ended up here.

Pretty amazing that two of the BEST players from that group--Rautins and Onuaku--are probably the two least heralded recruits we brought in. And pretty telling, frankly.

we had a disastrous run at PG . . . if just one thing had worked out - if Edelin had been able to keep it together, if Josh Wright had panned out, if Tiki hadn't turned out to be such a punk, it's unlikely that we would have gone 4 years without an NCAA tournament victory.

 

[MikeSU02]

I completely disagree. I said at the time - and was heavily criticized for it then as I will be now - that Nichols was the best player on the team Gerry's senior year. I think one of the greatest failings of JB as a coach was his unwillingness to acknowledge Gerry's limitations and trying to make him the focus of that offense. The reason that team was sub-.500 in conference play for the first time in 25 years amd was NIT bound before the BET miracle is that JB subjugated the superior talents of Nichols (and probably Devo, as well) to his surrogate son. That team had the talent to be much better than they were, IMO.

I'll agree with you. If your "best" player is shooting 35% overall, then he isn't your best player.

 

[RF2044]

we had a disastrous run at PG . . . if just one thing had worked out - if Edelin had been able to keep it together, if Josh Wright had panned out, if Tiki hadn't turned out to be such a punk, it's unlikely that we would have gone 4 years without an NCAA tournament victory.

...or if we'd landed Kyle Lowry or AJ Price instead of taking Josh Wright's early commitment.

:bang:

Completely agree with how adversely impactful the PG situation was. GMac [my opinion only] was a fairly marginal PG [in the pure sense], who's real value was as a complimentary scorer and volume shooter. His best year running the point was his freshman year, when he had lots of talent around him. I cringe thinking about how some teams used to gameplan to take GMac away [freaking Uconn], and how he was tremendously ineffectual in those games.

And make no mistake: I am a big fan of McNamara's.

 

[Gabjon]

Numbers don't tell the whole story, but Nichols's 2006 stats trump McNamara's in just about everything other than scoring. Nichols certainly had developed by his junior year. http://www.orangehoops.org/2005-2006.htm

It may be the case that McNamara struggled because he was forced (I dunno if "forced" is the right word - how about "coached"?) to do things he wasn't good at (like take people off the dribble), but doesn't that support the argument that he was limited? If his team needed him to penetrate and score and he wasn't able to, that's surely not a positive thing.

It's pretty difficult to argue that McNamara was the best player on any of his teams (2006 was close, but he shot so much worse than Nichols in similar minutes); if so, "player of the decade" is a bit of a reach. His shooting numbers are just so pedestrian.

If the question is "best talent" in the pass ten years than he is not in the top ten. But if that is the question than there is no need for the tread we all know it's Melo, but I don't interpret it that way because what fun is that? Dnic was and is a catch and shoot guy, but as a junior he rarely took contested shots so he would catch and shoot or pass the ball out and Gmac would take the shot open or not. As a senior Dnic took and made a ton of contested shots and also developed a head fake one dibble pull up that was very nice. (lets hope Southerland develops that this summer) That team got robbed out of a tournament bid and it really hurt his draft stock! Still pisses me off today!

 

[OttoMets]

call me crazy, I know

Crazy.

 

[OttoMets]

If the question is "best talent" in the pass ten years than he is not in the top ten. But if that is the question than there is no need for the tread we all know it's Melo, but I don't interpret it that way because what fun is that? Dnic was and is a catch and shoot guy, but as a junior he rarely took contested shots so he would catch and shoot or pass the ball out and Gmac would take the shot open or not. As a senior Dnic took and made a ton of contested shots and also developed a head fake one dibble pull up that was very nice. (lets hope Southerland develops that this summer) That team got robbed out of a tournament bid and it really hurt his draft stock! Still pisses me off today!

I'm right there with you on that one!

 

[Gabjon]

I completely disagree. I said at the time - and was heavily criticized for it then as I will be now - that Nichols was the best player on the team Gerry's senior year. I think one of the greatest failings of JB as a coach was his unwillingness to acknowledge Gerry's limitations and trying to make him the focus of that offense. The reason that team was sub-.500 in conference play for the first time in 25 years amd was NIT bound before the BET miracle is that JB subjugated the superior talents of Nichols (and probably Devo, as well) to his surrogate son. That team had the talent to be much better than they were, IMO.

I stated that Nichols had more upside so I'm not sure we are completely disagreeing, but he was too easily taken out of the game by face guarding him.

 

[Knicks411]

I think 2006 is pretty close. Gerry turned himself into a decent PG by the end; he was top 30 in the country in assist%.

39% from 2 point range ain't gonna get it done

 

[HOFCeluck]

I don't think our recruiting was bad...just unlucky.

The 2003 class underperformed, and the 2004 class was an all out failure, but they were pretty well regarded.

 

[moqui]

It is my position that Nichols would have done so much more, but that played the role that his coach gave to him, to the team's detriment

he was too easily taken out of the game by face guarding him.

that is Gerry that you are talking about, right? "he's being face guarded!" was always the go-to excuse for the McNamaniacs on his poor shooting nights

 

[RF2044]

I don't think our recruiting was bad...just unlucky.

The 2003 class underperformed, and the 2004 class was an all out failure, but they were pretty well regarded.

Luck didn't have anything to do with it. We recruited a number of highly rated players in the years following 2003, but for various reasons a large number of them didn't live up to the billing. And the dip in team performance was directly attributable to it.

 

[Gabjon]

It is my position that Nichols would have done so much more, but that played the role that his coach gave to him, to the team's detriment


that is Gerry that you are talking about, right? "he's being face guarded!" was always the go-to excuse for the McNamaniacs on his poor shooting nights

No dnic was taking out of the game by being face guarded. Gerry couldn't take advantage of that by beating his man off the dribble and was forced into bad shots, I'm not excusing him for his poor shooting nights if you read my earlier post I blame him for Vermont and I also think JB should have went to Josh Pace more that game because he had huge advantage as Hak was tripled teamed all night and fouled without the benefit of a whistle all night too but I digress.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Luck didn't have anything to do with it. We recruited a number of highly rated players in the years following 2003, but for various reasons a large number of them didn't live up to the billing. And the dip in team performance was directly attributable to it.

So how is a large number of highly rated recruits not panning out not unlucky? You're saying the exact thing I was.

 

[RF2044]

So how is a large number of highly rated recruits not panning out not unlucky? You're saying the exact thing I was.

No, we're not. A large number of highly rated recruits not panning out is a trend, not some function of chance.

One player not panning out is unlucky. Having a player sustain a fluke injury is unlucky. Being unable to field a team that has complimentary skill sets and is incapable of competing at a high level is poor recruiting, not "unlucky."

 

[Knicks411]

No, we're not. A large number of highly rated recruits not panning out is a trend, not some function of chance.

One player not panning out is unlucky. Having a player get injured is unlucky. Being unable to field a team that has complimentary skill sets and is incapable of competing at a high level due to poor recruiting isn't luck-based.

Well also, it's not like recruits aren't expected to improve once they hit campus. Maybe we did a poor job developing those kids.

 

[RF2044]

Well also, it's not like recruits aren't expected to improve once they hit campus. Maybe we did a poor job developing those kids.

Maybe. But if that's the case, then poor coaching as a factor doesn't have much to do with luck, either.

 

[Knicks411]

Maybe. And that wouldn't make the net result "unlucky," either.

Yeah I think it would be unlucky if some kids got hurt or something, or maybe even if they couldn't cut it academically. But just not playing as well as they were "supposed" to; not necessarily buying it.

 

[orangefan13]

I question how good AO could have been had he stayed healthy for four years, maybe even adding a step to his game with or without his ft shooting in crunch time.

The early leaving of Flynn, Donte, Waiters and Fab will have us wondering. Defenetly a different generation.

 

[HOFCeluck]

So then what changed in coaching/development between 2004 and 2008 that resulted in such bad results?

Did the coaching staff suddenly drop the ball after the national title and then figure out how to be competent again?

Sometimes recruits just don't pan out. We happened to string together a few underwhelming classes. It happens sometimes. I'd just like a more concrete explanation than "we just didn't develop kids."

 

[HOFCeluck]

No, we're not. A large number of highly rated recruits not panning out is a trend, not some function of chance.

One player not panning out is unlucky. Having a player sustain a fluke injury is unlucky. Being unable to field a team that has complimentary skill sets and is incapable of competing at a high level is poor recruiting, not "unlucky."

That's not unlucky; that's recruiting. You're never going to have every kid in your class reach expectations.

 

[Knicks411]

So then what changed in coaching/development between 2004 and 2008 that resulted in such bad results?

Did the coaching staff suddenly drop the ball after the national title and then figure out how to be competent again?

Sometimes recruits just don't pan out. We happened to string together a few underwhelming classes. It happens sometimes. I'd just like a more concrete explanation than "we just didn't develop kids."

I don't know what it is; maybe the kids weren't nearly as coachable.

I just don't think you can chalk it up to bad luck.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I don't know what it is; maybe the kids weren't nearly as coachable.

I just don't think you can chalk it up to bad luck.

Yeah it doesn't even matter really. One way or another we had a string of mediocre classes.

 

[moqui]

I think I am on both sides of this argument - I agree with docsu that kids not panning out is a function of bad luck, but on the flip side we had a run where we took a chance on recruiting some questionable character guys - Edelin, Josh Wright, Mayben, Mike Jones (and even arguably Paul Harris) who put the program through constant drama.

 

[br801]

I think I am on both sides of this argument - I agree with docsu that kids not panning out is a function of bad luck, but on the flip side we had a run where we took a chance on recruiting some questionable character guys - Edelin, Josh Wright, Mayben, Mike Jones (and even arguably Paul Harris) who put the program through constant drama.

I don't believe there were red flags concerning Edelin and JWright as they were being recruited, but maybe my memory fails me here.

I think any time you're dealing with small numbers of recruits, there's always a chance of striking out in a given year (or two).

 

[orangefan13]

watkins, Greene, Flynn, Hak made the NBA.
Gerry was never supposed to but came close to making the NBA.
Nichols was right on the fringe of the NBA where he was ranked. He was a good ball handler and superior shooter with pretty good rebounding skills and decent defense. As close to being NBA and not making it as they get for any college team.

Trob might have evolved into his range had he stayed healthy. The guy was a hobbling veteran after 4 years.

Harris was undrafted because of offense and Devendorf for defense outsdide of that we were fine. And that was on them. Keep in mind both had children, one was injured and the other was a 6'6 PF without SF skills a jumper or driving game who left school early. I don't care how high you are rated its not going to happen. Outside of that there really was no dissapointment.

And if your going to look at it that way howbout going the other direction.
Wes Johnson, Andy Rautins, underated Kris Joseph who mightmake it right now? Howbout what Dion and Fab turned into by sophmores. Fab incredibly raw 6 years of playing basketball and Dion not even being a Mcdonalds AA and going in the top 10 as only a college sophmore.

Scoop has given it his all and is close to being drafted right now. Howbout 2 star ARinze Onuaku almost making a roster despite his injury. Rick Jackson was as close to being drafted as they come, he just didn't add the faceup game. If he finds that he will find a spot in the NBA someday.

CJ has overacheived thusfar. Baye Keita as a freshmen was arguably better then Dion and Fab.
Howbout Cooney he might surprise alot of people right now.

Basketball is a game of ups and downs. Look at the NBA's first overall pick for the washington wizards a few years back whats his name.