Class of 2017 Quade Green 2.0

[RF2044]

If I was trying to recruit guys Kentucky and Duke were expressing interest in, I would seriously do some research. I'd try to come up with stats on Kentucky and Duke in hopes to demonstrate that 50% of their players don't play or end up transferring (I have no idea if it's that high or not I'm just randomly picking a number). I'd see what percentage of 4 star players get playing time and 5 star too. I'd check the stats for 2nd year five star guys getting recruited over too. I don't think it'd take that much effort if only doing those two teams. Let the stats speak for themselves. Maybe the Quade's and Tucker's wouldn't listen to verbal warnings, but stats don't lie.

Here's the problem with that approach -- most of the kids considering Duke / UK are elite, blue chip recruits. They are probably uber-confident in their abilities, have been told that they can't miss by most people around them, and believe that they are going to fast track to the NBA. They don't expect to sit the bench or fail -- even though that's how it works out for some of them. So trying to tell them that what they have heard for years / believe themselves isn't true probably isn't going to resonate.

Also, I read an article a few years ago discussing how negative recruiting tactics often backfire, and make the coach sound petty. I'm sure that there are times when it can be situationally effective--not disputing that--but as an overall approach, it generally is not the way to go. The conclusion was that today's prospects resonate much more with you selling YOUR program as opposed to trying to tear someone else's down. Now, I don't view pointing to the depth chart at another school as negative recruiting. But I could see how coming up with an analysis about how a rival program's players perform might be.

 

[jdubs30]

Isn't there a way to show the guys that we are recruiting (that are also considering Kentucky and Duke) just how many players end up riding the bench or leaving those teams. Gbinje, Tucker, possibly Quade and the center Killeya Jones too. Alex OConnell at Duke will barely see PT, and Girard won't either if he goes there.

Probably not because those kids think they’re more like Malik Monk or SGA.

Yeah exactly. Telling a top 25 kid that you’re recruiting that he won’t play at another school because they have a top 15 kid coming in is a slippery slope. These kids have all the confidence in the world and don’t think they’ll take a back seat to anyone. You have to hope their circle lets them know, but it’s a little tricky coming from a coach that wants you; “you’re not good enough to play over this kid! Come play for us instead!” - that doesn’t exactly inspire a lot of confidence

 

[Knicks411]

Yeah exactly. Telling a top 25 kid that you’re recruiting that he won’t play at another school because they have a top 15 kid coming in is a slippery slope. These kids have all the confidence in the world and don’t think they’ll take a back seat to anyone. You have to hope their circle lets them know, but it’s a little tricky coming from a coach that wants you; “you’re not good enough to play over this kid! Come play for us instead!” - that doesn’t exactly inspire a lot of confidence

Also, what if his people did tell him he may not play as much as he would like at UK, but he said "i don't care, i want to try and play against the best and see what happens"? Is that a bad thing?

As a for instance, Quade Green was #23 in the RSCI rankings his senior year. Devin Booker was also #23; one year later, the guy was a lotto pick.

 

[JazzNC]

Also, what if his people did tell him he may not play as much as he would like at UK, but he said "i don't care, i want to try and play against the best and see what happens"? Is that a bad thing?

As a for instance, Quade Green was #23 in the RSCI rankings his senior year. Devin Booker was also #23; one year later, the guy was a lotto pick.

I get it... you're right. I just know they're negatively recruiting against us. I'd like to find an angle to take on them.

 

[jdubs30]

I get it... you're right. I just know they're negatively recruiting against us. I'd like to find an angle to take on them.

I think one angle you can use that won’t make the player “upset” is minutes played. It’s one thing to say “UK has Hagans coming in next year and he’s rated higher than you so you won’t play”. It’s another thing to say “UK had 9 guys average over 14mpg last year, 2 guys over 27mpg and none over 33mpg. UK always plays 9-10 guys. We don’t, we play 7 sometimes 8 so while you could be anywhere between 14-27mpg for UK, if you came here you’d get more than that”

 

[All4SU]

Here's the problem with that approach -- most of the kids considering Duke / UK are elite, blue chip recruits. They are probably uber-confident in their abilities, have been told that they can't miss by most people around them, and believe that they are going to fast track to the NBA. They don't expect to sit the bench or fail -- even though that's how it works out for some of them. So trying to tell them that what they have heard for years / believe themselves isn't true probably isn't going to resonate.

Also, I read an article a few years ago discussing how negative recruiting tactics often backfire, and make the coach sound petty. I'm sure that there are times when it can be situationally effective--not disputing that--but as an overall approach, it generally is not the way to go. The conclusion was that today's prospects resonate much more with you selling YOUR program as opposed to trying to tear someone else's down. Now, I don't view pointing to the depth chart at another school as negative recruiting. But I could see how coming up with an analysis about how a rival program's players perform might be.

I’m convinced players who sign with Syracuse feel the same way.

 

[reedny]

Here's the problem with that approach -- most of the kids considering Duke / UK are elite, blue chip recruits. They are probably uber-confident in their abilities, have been told that they can't miss by most people around them, and believe that they are going to fast track to the NBA. They don't expect to sit the bench or fail -- even though that's how it works out for some of them. So trying to tell them that what they have heard for years / believe themselves isn't true probably isn't going to resonate.

Also, I read an article a few years ago discussing how negative recruiting tactics often backfire, and make the coach sound petty. I'm sure that there are times when it can be situationally effective--not disputing that--but as an overall approach, it generally is not the way to go. The conclusion was that today's prospects resonate much more with you selling YOUR program as opposed to trying to tear someone else's down. Now, I don't view pointing to the depth chart at another school as negative recruiting. But I could see how coming up with an analysis about how a rival program's players perform might be.

Agree. It would be unclassy to pitch a recruit by saying (e.g.), "Coach K's a crook" or "Pay-Pal's running a dirty program". That's not an image that fits SU. But there's also nothing wrong with saying, "Duke's a great program, but they've got X, Y and Z at your position and will continue to recruit over you, whereas you have a much better chance of getting meaningful PT and exposure for the NBA here at SU".

 

[TinyManInside]

If I was trying to recruit guys Kentucky and Duke were expressing interest in, I would seriously do some research. I'd try to come up with stats on Kentucky and Duke in hopes to demonstrate that 50% of their players don't play or end up transferring (I have no idea if it's that high or not I'm just randomly picking a number). I'd see what percentage of 4 star players get playing time and 5 star too. I'd check the stats for 2nd year five star guys getting recruited over too. I don't think it'd take that much effort if only doing those two teams. Let the stats speak for themselves. Maybe the Quade's and Tucker's wouldn't listen to verbal warnings, but stats don't lie.

I 100% guarantee you that the staff has all of these numbers worked out, and they probably present them to the kids they're recruiting if/when appropriate. Each kid is different and some kids you probably never tell this to, and others you hone in on it... depends on the read that you get on the kid and whether or not you think they'll be receptive of the info (which some might perceive as negative recruiting).

But... I always come back to Boeheim's famous quote when asked about bench players and he said (paraphrasing) "If you took the 8th man on every top 50 team in America and asked him how he was going to make his living, you'd get 50 kids saying that they're gonna play in the NBA"...

So you can feed a kid with all the supportive information in the world, but if they don't want to hear it, it doesn't make a difference.

 

[JazzNC]

I think one angle you can use that won’t make the player “upset” is minutes played. It’s one thing to say “UK has Hagans coming in next year and he’s rated higher than you so you won’t play”. It’s another thing to say “UK had 9 guys average over 14mpg last year, 2 guys over 27mpg and none over 33mpg. UK always plays 9-10 guys. We don’t, we play 7 sometimes 8 so while you could be anywhere between 14-27mpg for UK, if you came here you’d get more than that”

I agree with the mpg stat. But I think there may be a way to show the stats about transfers and DNPs at Kentucky and Duke without making it seem like your disrespecting the player's talent and ability...

"Hey you ARE good enough to play anywhere, including Duke and Kentucky. That's why we want YOU! Syracuse has more consecutive winning seasons than any other team in college ball. We routinely play well in the tournament. Our guys get drafted in the NBA. Teams like Kentucky and Duke who almost exclusively recruit top 100 guys can make it incredibly hard to crack a rotation even for an elite guy. Teams like that sometimes have three 5 star guys at one position. At Syracuse YOU can come here and be a star! You'll get the same television coverage, and opportunity to play big name competition as you will at Duke or Kentucky. You don't need that name on the front of your jersey to make it to the next level. You are an incredible talent who can make it on your own merits. Syracuse gives you an UNOBSTRUCTED path to prime time exposure!!!

***THEN show them the stats at Kentucky and Duke regarding transfers and decreased playing time. In other words build the player up FIRST. Convince them they are good enough to gain exposure and attention without the UK or Duke name.

Maybe we already do this I don't know... that's why I think recruiting guys in the 75-150 range with an occasional 5 star guy may be the way to go?

 

[Funk Doc]

Dang!!!!! 20 pages for a guy that as of now is still on another school's roster!!! Very Impressive...gotta love Orange Nation!!! We are a breed all our own!!!!

 

[JazzNC]

Dang!!!!! 20 pages for a guy that as of now is still on another school's roster!!! Very Impressive...gotta love Orange Nation!!! We are a breed all our own!!!!

Gotta love 'Cuse fans... it's the offseason and we're still thinking about the team!

 

[Cusesky8214]

 

[littlereg]

This article is stupid because they completely leave out the fact that Kentucky also has shooting guards like Herro and Baker who are going to get minutes as well.

 

[billsin01]

I agree with the mpg stat. But I think there may be a way to show the stats about transfers and DNPs at Kentucky and Duke without making it seem like your disrespecting the player's talent and ability...

"Hey you ARE good enough to play anywhere, including Duke and Kentucky. That's why we want YOU! Syracuse has more consecutive winning seasons than any other team in college ball. We routinely play well in the tournament. Our guys get drafted in the NBA. Teams like Kentucky and Duke who almost exclusively recruit top 100 guys can make it incredibly hard to crack a rotation even for an elite guy. Teams like that sometimes have three 5 star guys at one position. At Syracuse YOU can come here and be a star! You'll get the same television coverage, and opportunity to play big name competition as you will at Duke or Kentucky. You don't need that name on the front of your jersey to make it to the next level. You are an incredible talent who can make it on your own merits. Syracuse gives you an UNOBSTRUCTED path to prime time exposure!!!

***THEN show them the stats at Kentucky and Duke regarding transfers and decreased playing time. In other words build the player up FIRST. Convince them they are good enough to gain exposure and attention without the UK or Duke name.

Maybe we already do this I don't know... that's why I think recruiting guys in the 75-150 range with an occasional 5 star guy may be the way to go?

I'm not sure what I think on all that. I'm with you on the bolded part -- I love the idea of operating largely in the 35-150 range (not 75, necessarily) and picking kids very carefully. I also would love to hear that the Cuse is laying out a plan for each kid -- not a guarantee but having very real conversations about what it takes to get to the NBA, what it takes to be a really good college player and how we are going to help them achieve those goals. I also would love to hear them using the zone as a recruiting pitch -- not defending it but talking about how much team defense in the NBA features zone-like rotations.

But bottom line, it feels like we need to adjust how we are tackling the recruiting process.

 

[shermstheman]

Dang!!!!! 20 pages for a guy that as of now is still on another school's roster!!! Very Impressive...gotta love Orange Nation!!! We are a breed all our own!!!!

And setting ourselves up to be crushed a second time by the same person

 

[hoopsupstate]

If we recruit kids outside the top 50 they will still think they are ready for the NBA. Coming to SU means these kids will get all kinds of exposure and are treated like Gods in Syracuse. They get positive pub beyond their ranking.

 

[Orangefan1]

Article doesn’t make much sense

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Isn't there a way to show the guys that we are recruiting (that are also considering Kentucky and Duke) just how many players end up riding the bench or leaving those teams. Gbinje, Tucker, possibly Quade and the center Killeya Jones too. Alex OConnell at Duke will barely see PT, and Girard won't either if he goes there.

I'm sure playing time is never mentioned.

 

[JazzNC]

I'm sure playing time is never mentioned.

If you read the thread a bit further we discussed that at length. Minutes per game is only one facet, IMO.

 

[pfister1]

But... I always come back to Boeheim's famous quote when asked about bench players and he said (paraphrasing) "If you took the 8th man on every top 50 team in America and asked him how he was going to make his living, you'd get 50 kids saying that they're gonna play in the NBA"...

So you can feed a kid with all the supportive information in the world, but if they don't want to hear it, it doesn't make a difference.

I believe this is very true. Part of the problem with being young is you don't have enough experience to recognize reality and understand how few of us truly our special.

 

[OrangeDW]

And setting ourselves up to be crushed a second time by the same person

I don’t think it’s the same. If he comes, cool. If not, we’ll be fine. We’ve got other guards this time.

 

[IthacaMatt]

don't get hung up on the terminology. jb has often run a 3 guard lineup with one of them playing on the back line of the zone; e.g., josh pace, paul harris, andy rautins. it is absolutely not out of the question that buddy could find himself minutes there as well

I don't really recall Andy getting much time on the back line, to be honest.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Pace shot 10 3's as a freshman. He shot 10 total over his final 3 years. It's crazy that he never could develop any sort of outside shot but was still an effective player that scored nearly 1,000 pts.

And we used him and Billy Edelin on the court together at various times in the 3 seasons they both were here. Two guards with no outside game at all, insanity.

They both had "old man" games. I see Billy all the time down at the County Clerk's office. One of my all-time favorites. I wish it had worked out for him.

 

[longtimefan]

I don't really recall Andy getting much time on the back line, to be honest.

He played the 3 a lot as a junior.

 

[Briancuse]

And setting ourselves up to be crushed a second time by the same person

Eh I'm really not expecting anything if it happens cool if not we never had him anyway.