Question about rebounding

[SoBeCuse]

Honest question. Perhaps the players were too gassed to even try to "go get the ball" but this was happening earlier in the game as well.

Not trying to be snarky at all, fyi. But, are the players specifically coached to disregard opponents when trying to get a defensive rebound? I mean I know Boeheim says that they don't box out. But, what about when nobody is getting the ball? Just putting a body on someone could get you an over the back call at least. It's a free-for-all anyways in zone, right? If you're not getting the ball then why not find a body? I don't get it. I was going crazy seeing Johnson, Mahmoud, etc., having free passes at dunks and layups under the basket by themselves pretty much. Then the white kid at the end (UConn game? Hello?). Must have been 10 points at least on that easy stuff for them. I guess we just need an alpha dog senior Rak type to go get the ball.

 

[HoustonCuse]

That was supposed to be Roberson and DC, but it just didn't go our way on those two. We would have been better off not even contesting those boards because they not only got them, they turned them into and 1's half the time. Disgusting to watch.

 

[Shark58]

my 7yo knows how to box out (most of the time)

 

[CaptainJ]

my 7yo knows how to box out (most of the time)

Ive had dogs that were very good at boxing out when food was involved.

 

[CaptainJ]

Sobe, it was indeed frustrating to watch. At times I'm more of a role poster, so like you I will wait and see what some of our gurus can come up with to answer this.

The funny part about that kid getting the only 2 point bucket of his career was that like Robey, he missed his free throw. Unlike Robey, I'm guessing most everyone thought he'd nail it.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Here is the problem. We have at least one of our bigs, a forward or a center, usually sprinting out to contest a shot. One of the guards is typically also on that same side of the floor trying to recover. That leads to one of your bigs completely away from the basket, along with two of your guards. The guards need to rebound consistently in a zone. Ours don't do a great job at this. What you end up with is the other 2 bigs banging down low with 3 other guys a lot of the time, and they naturally aren't in great position because the zone typically "allows" someone to hang baseline, closer to the basket than the back line. It's not a secret our team isn't great defensively, so the problems are magnified because we have guys trying to recover too much and the rotations get a tad behind, and that's all it takes.

 

[tbonezone]

"Here is the problem. We have at least one of our bigs, a forward or a center, usually sprinting out to contest a shot. "

yes that often removes lydon from the middle . also when we slap on the pressure roberson is defending the inbounds pass and trapped back court. that also exposes us underneath and leads to easy dunks.

 

[cuseinseattle]

Honest question. Perhaps the players were too gassed to even try to "go get the ball" but this was happening earlier in the game as well.

Not trying to be snarky at all, fyi. But, are the players specifically coached to disregard opponents when trying to get a defensive rebound? I mean I know Boeheim says that they don't box out. But, what about when nobody is getting the ball? Just putting a body on someone could get you an over the back call at least. It's a free-for-all anyways in zone, right? If you're not getting the ball then why not find a body? I don't get it. I was going crazy seeing Johnson, Mahmoud, etc., having free passes at dunks and layups under the basket by themselves pretty much. Then the white kid at the end (UConn game? Hello?). Must have been 10 points at least on that easy stuff for them. I guess we just need an alpha dog senior Rak type to go get the ball.

You don't have a traditional guy you are guarding since you are guarding an area so you can put a body on someone if they are in your area near you but you kind of just have to go up and get it. I think it is less about the zone though and the fact we are just not a good rebounding team. Our guards aren't good about coming down and rebounding. I think Lydon and White would be ok at rebounding if they were the 2 and 3 best rebounders on our front line and we had a strong physical center like AO or something that can grab boards. It is very frustrating to watch.

 

[Fat tire 13]

You don't have a traditional guy you are guarding since you are guarding an area so you can put a body on someone if they are in your area near you but you kind of just have to go up and get it. I think it is less about the zone though and the fact we are just not a good rebounding team. Our guards aren't good about coming down and rebounding. I think Lydon and White would be ok at rebounding if they were the 2 and 3 best rebounders on our front line and we had a strong physical center like AO or something that can grab boards. It is very frustrating to watch.

I think it's both. Historically really good rebounding opponents would always destroy us on the boards. Having better personnel definitely helps, but you are starting at a disadvantage with the zone for sure. It's a scramble to box out the correct person

 

[kuethstheman]

It's complicated. The best way to get a rebound is to start by going to where the ball's going to come off the board. When in a zone, do you go to a spot that you don't think the ball's going to go just to put a body on someone? Do you take your eyes off the ball in order to find a person to body up? You don't know the answer until you find out if you were right or wrong about where the ball was going to go.

The best rebounders don't box out, as a rule. They go to the right spot and then go get the ball. If an opponent is trying to get to the same spot from behind them, they definitely fight for the spot. Unfortunately to a large degree, our guys are the ones trying to get to the spot from behind because of their other responsibilities.

 

[Knicks411]

I think it's both. Historically really good rebounding opponents would always destroy us on the boards. Having better personnel definitely helps, but you are starting at a disadvantage with the zone for sure. It's a scramble to box out the correct person

We are literally a bad defensive rebounding team every single season. Some years worse than others, but we're getting a higher percentage of defensive rebounds this year than we did in 2003 or 2012, and the same as we did in 2010.

It's a combination of the zone and the coaching. When the players change and the end results don't, what else could it be?

 

[cuseinseattle]

When asked in the past the strengths and weaknesses of the zone, Boeheim has said rebounding is one of the weaknesses. You will always give up more.

 

[Newhouser]

The key spot in the 2-3 for rebounding is the SF. Think back to some of our better teams during the zone era - Melo, Wes, even CJ though he wasn't great on the glass. You need some size or length at the 3 and some interest, and most years that is a tough combination for us.

 

[Knicks411]

The key spot in the 2-3 for rebounding is the SF. Think back to some of our better teams during the zone era - Melo, Wes, even CJ though he wasn't great on the glass. You need some size or length at the 3 and some interest, and most years that is a tough combination for us.

The thing is, like I said earlier, those teams were bad at defensive rebounding.

We're allowing opponents to get 34.6% of offensive rebounds this year.
With Wes in 2010, we gave up...34.6% offensive rebounds.
In 2003, it was even worse, 36.6%

 

[SoBeCuse]

The thing is, like I said earlier, those teams were bad at defensive rebounding.

We're allowing opponents to get 34.6% of offensive rebounds this year.
With Wes in 2010, we gave up...34.6% offensive rebounds.
In 2003, it was even worse, 36.6%

Is it possible teams are holding the ball longer now so they are putting up fewer FGA? Making that 34.6 even more problematic? What's our pace/tempo on offense? We get shot clock violations every game now against bad teams even. Seems like the shot clock runs down too low often as well.

 

[cuse522]

The key is generating enough turnovers to offset it - the good defensive SU teams do this, this one not so much so far - but I am cautiously optimistic that could be improving just in time.

 

[AZOrange]

When asked in the past the strengths and weaknesses of the zone, Boeheim has said rebounding is one of the weaknesses. You will always give up more.

In a year like this I'm struggling to identify the strength of the zone

 

[Knicks411]

Is it possible teams are holding the ball longer now so they are putting up fewer FGA? Making that 34.6 even more problematic? What's our pace/tempo on offense? We get shot clock violations every game now against bad teams even. Seems like the shot clock runs down too low often as well.

Hmm.

Our pace this year is about 66.8. in 2012, for instance, it was 65.9. When we won the title in 03, it was a shade over 74.

The biggest problem this year with our defense is we're allowing too many makes. (obvious but worth stating).

2010 is a good comp, since the defensive rebounding percentage was identical. Our defensive efficiency this year is 100.6, in 2010 it was 87.5.

However, in 2010 we forced more turnovers (22% of possessions compared to about 20% this year); over a 66 possession game that's about 1.3 turnovers. It's something, but not a huge difference. But teams have an effective fg% of 49.6 against us this year, it was 45.9% in 2010.

 

[Knicks411]

In a year like this I'm struggling to identify the strength of the zone

honestly, this year it's probably that we don't foul a lot, which is helpful when you have no depth.

That's always been a fringe benefit of the zone, it's not good when it's the main benefit.

 

[AZOrange]

honestly, this year it's probably that we don't foul a lot, which is helpful when you have no depth.

That's always been a fringe benefit of the zone, it's not good when it's the main benefit.

Reminds me a lot of FlynnDevo up top. Barf

 

[Knicks411]

Reminds me a lot of FlynnDevo up top. Barf

yeah. But you know, even in 2008, we finished the year 68th in defensive; this year we're 95th!

I just noticed this, it doesn't mean anything, but it's funny, we're 95th in defense, like I said. if you add up our year end ranking in prior years (so last year were 17, the year before that 19, add them up, you get 36, etc), if you add up our final defensive ranking for the last 7 years, you get 101. 6 spots worse than this year