Rank your top 10 players of the JB Era.

[OttoMets]

Best players of the JB era is a really, really difficult task. If I had to do it, I'd go with a list that looks a lot like this one above. It's heavily weighted with late 80s guys and I'd put Sherm really high b/c JB's best teams are PG driven and we haven't had a better PG than Sherm (even though Pearl was the 'better' player, IMO). For me it's:
1 -- DC (I think it's really hard for people 30 years later to remember just how unbelievably talented he was.
2 -- Melo (Won a title and I always felt he was an incredibly smart player. Truly understood how to kill you inside and out)
3 -- Sherm (true PG, engine that made those best teams go).
4 -- Pearl (defined the swagger that was SU hoops for a long time. put program on the map and a true legend in hoops/NYC bball)
5 -- Bing (never saw him play but obviously a stud and I think there is a slight gap between those top 3 and the rest of the guys we're discussing)
6 -- Owens (numbers are unreal and he was a better pure athlete than Wallace, IMO)
7 -- Wallace (Title run was huge, came at a key time and was just so productive. Made the game look so easy and had phenomenal numbers)
8 -- Thompson (really productive player who was exciting to watch)
9 -- Moten (tough to rank b/c he wasn't overly athletic, but a pure scorer, which is really valuable)
10 -- Warrick (Hard to leave Ronny off but Hak was a BE POY who got better every year and had a better peak than Seikaly. Also won a title.)

HM: Seikaly, GMac, Dave Johnson -- to be fair, never really saw Louie and Bouie or Santifer/Leo Rautins. I also really like some guys like MCW, Waiters, and Ennis but they played in a watered down era and didn't stick around long enough for us to see their true ceilings. Liked Autry a lot but a little disappointing before a phenomenal senior season.

As for teams the past 20 years (just to get more current or recent players involved):
1 -- Melo
2 -- Warrick
3 -- GMac (I think people underestimate just how heavy a load he carried after the loss of Edelin and the struggles of the Watkins/DNic/Roberts recruiting class. The numbers aren't super exciting but dude hit so many big shots and we won so many games with him)
4 -- Wes Johnson (BE POY -- 16.5 with and 8.5 with two blocks and two steals a game on a dominant team. Nasty)
5 -- Shump (Stud scorer and not a bad rebounder or defender in the zone. Disappointing end to his career)
6 -- Etan Thomas (Excellent defender who put up three really, really solid offensive seasons on teams that were pretty solid)
7 -- Johnny Flynn (One of those guys you would have loved to have for one more year but really productive for two years and was really the guy who created all the offense for that team)
8 -- Waiters (no one other than Melo created his own offense as efficiently as Dion, IMO, and he was a good defensive player too. 12 ppg in 24 mpg is pretty ridiculous)
9 -- MCW (tough to rank b/c the shooting was so ugly, but dude was a nightmare for opponents in the zone (3 steals/game), passed the ball exceptionally well and led a final four run with four big 3s against Cal, a huge game vs. IU and then a double-double against Marquette. People also forget there was ZERO offense on that team outside of CJ Fair. Grant as a frosh and Rak didn't play and/or struggled and Southerland and Triche were OK, not great)
10 -- CJ Fair (really, really, really good complimentary player. Struggled a bit as the main guy.)
Honorable mentions: Tyler Ennis (disappointing end to a season that was pretty amazing really. 14-4 in the ACC and Ennis was a huge part. Would have loved to have him for more time). Gbinije (Feel like he could be ranked higher and had to play out of position as a PG, but he was a nice player who put together a huge season to lead us to the final four), J-Hart (just struggled offensively and his defense was a bit under-utilized in the zone), Fab (really nice year and would rank highly on the list if he came back as a junior but that with all his other issues made him tough to rank), Grant (would be there if he had one more year), Lydon (would be there with one more year), Nichols (loved his senior season but really struggled for three years when they desperately could have used him), RJ, Scoop, KJ (wish he had been more effective inside the 3-point line his final two years), Devendorf (White may have been only better shooter than I can remember), Andrew White (Really impressive season but hard to look at 19-15 or whatever and feel like he had more of an impact than the guys above), Todd Burgan, Billy Edelin (what could have been?), Rak (Just got nothing until that phenomenal senior year)

All Under-Rated team (Last 20 years)
1. Andy Rautins (I'd sign up for four years of him right now -- loved how aggressively he played the top of the zone)
2. Josh Pace (I could actually make an argument for him on the previous list. Super versatile and super efficient.)
3. RJ (Excellent junior/senior seasons and really surprisingly good sophomore year)
4. Damone Brown (improved every year, great senior season)
5. Scoop (drove people crazy at times but put up good numbers on teams that won a TON of games)
6. Allen Griffin (did whatever was asked and battled back from a tough junior year)
7. Kueth Duany (excellent complimentary piece -- big role on title team)

First Dave Johnson mention, and a good call. He ought to be in the top 15 since 1976. Very talented and productive player who had the misfortune of coming along just as recruiting fell off but still put up big numbers and helped win a few games.

I'd throw Otis Hill onto your all-underrated list.

 

[OttoMets]

I'd put Devo over Gmac, Devo was a better player in almost every aspect of his game if you're going by strictly skill and I don't think it's even a debate. Gmac hit some amazing shots in amazing spots but he wasn't a great volume shooter and his hero ball got old and stale real quick.

I might put McNamara higher. Devendorf was a better shooter and had a generally more refined set of offensive skills. But there's something to be said for McNamara's ability to adapt to a new position and sort of salvage the 2006 season (of course luck played a role, too). On the flip side, everything went into the crapper when it became Devendorf's team. Couldn't play on the ball, couldn't defend, and we went to the NIT.

 

[Cusefan0307]

You heard me. Let's see your list.

Wes
Flynn
MCW
Dion
Fab
Gbinije
Rautins
Fair
Scoop
Triche

 

[OttoMets]

Quietly held the team together when Cooney wasn't hitting anything, Malachi hadn't developed yet, Roberson disappeared and kaleb provided no relief. Not to mention we had no center. It was easy to shift focus on our bright and flashy talented freshman later in the year but we wouldn't have won 10 games without G.

Hate channeling my inner boeheim.

I admire players who sacrifice their own games to change positions, and Gbinije really impressed me with the improvement over the course of his career. He worked his way to becoming a very good shooter. Very good.

But he wasn't a skilled or particularly successful point guard, and that unfortunately is the position he played. He was a key part of a Final Four team and was likable, but he'd be way down on any list of best Syracuse players.

 

[JOC44]

1. Carmelo Anthony
2. Derrick Coleman
3. Pearl Washington
4. Sherman Douglas
5. Billy Owens
6. John Wallace
7. Rony Seikaly
8. Lawrence Moten
9. Hakim Warrick
10. Louis Orr

 

[Day2]

Dion 2nd? Arinze 3rd? No Rautins, Fair or Triche and White included. Yikes.

Wes and Dion were the holdovers from my original list, so they had to go #1 and #2. Arinze was a load on defense and automatic down low. White was arguably the best pure shooter we've ever had and one of the few to score 40 points in a game. If I need a SF, I'm taking him over Fair, Nichols, Joseph, etc. I tried to limit it to two per position (the exception being Silent G over a second PF), and I couldn't justify putting Rautins/Triche over Dion/Devo or Triche/Jardine over MCW/Flynn.

 

[Day2]

Wes
Flynn
MCW
Dion
Fab
Gbinije
Rautins
Fair
Scoop
Triche

Odd that you made a big deal over my placement of Dion when you only had him two spots lower.

 

[Day2]

I admire players who sacrifice their own games to change positions, and Gbinije really impressed me with the improvement over the course of his career. He worked his way to becoming a very good shooter. Very good.

That's why I put him on my post-GMAC list.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Wes and Dion were the holdovers from my original list, so they had to go #1 and #2. Arinze was a load on defense and automatic down low. White was arguably the best pure shooter we've ever had and one of the few to score 40 points in a game. If I need a SF, I'm taking him over Fair, Nichols, Joseph, etc. I tried to limit it to two per position (the exception being Silent G over a second PF), and I couldn't justify putting Rautins/Triche over Dion/Devo or Triche/Jardine over MCW/Flynn.

I give players extra points for performing in big games and value defense as well. To me White misses the boat there. Jackson had a great year his senior year, but wasn't great against Marquette. To each their own. Not trying to start a debate.

 

[OttoMets]

That's why I put him on my post-GMAC list.

I'd like to play along with a list for that era, but it's really challenging. Between the early-entrant trend and the increasingly heavy hand of coaches in micromanaging the game, I don't know where to begin.

Quick thought:
1) Wes Johnson
2) Onuaku
3) Waiters
4) Nichols
5) Jardine
6) Fair
7) Christmas
8) Melo
9) Joseph
10) Gbinije? Or Paul Harris? With a very good season next year, I could argue for Tyus Battle in this spot.

Devendorf was a highly-skilled two, but great players rise to the occasion and my memory of Devendorf is that he was only as good as his surrounding cast. Same, to a lesser extent, with Jonny Flynn.

Brandon Triche might find a spot among those ten, but this highlights what a strange list this is: there's a lot of decent and good but very little great in the last decade. Sign of the times, I guess.

 

[Day2]

I give players extra points for performing in big games and value defense as well. To me White misses the boat there. Jackson had a great year his senior year, but wasn't great against Marquette. To each their own. Not trying to start a debate.

Debates are fun and nothing personal. I gave similar extra points for a lot of the players on both lists, but I'll admit I wasn't consistent in that regard.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I'd like to play along with a list for that era, but it's really challenging. Between the early-entrant trend and the increasingly heavy hand of coaches in micromanaging the game, I don't know where to begin.

Quick thought:
1) Wes Johnson
2) Onuaku
3) Waiters
4) Nichols
5) Jardine
6) Fair
7) Christmas
8) Melo
9) Joseph
10) Gbinije? Or Paul Harris? With a very good season next year, I could argue for Tyus Battle in this spot.

Devendorf was a highly-skilled two, but great players rise to the occasion and my memory of Devendorf is that he was only as good as his surrounding cast. Same, to a lesser extent, with Jonny Flynn.

Brandon Triche might find a spot among those ten, but this highlights what a strange list this is: there's a lot of decent and good but very little great in the last decade. Sign of the times, I guess.

Exactly why I think Moten's scoring record is safe. If they are really good early, they leave. If they are good as Juniors and Seniors, it usually means they didn't produce enough as underclassmen to go pro.

 

[Day2]

I'd like to play along with a list for that era, but it's really challenging. Between the early-entrant trend and the increasingly heavy hand of coaches in micromanaging the game, I don't know where to begin.

Quick thought:
1) Wes Johnson
2) Onuaku
3) Waiters
4) Nichols
5) Jardine
6) Fair
7) Christmas
8) Melo
9) Joseph
10) Gbinije? Or Paul Harris? With a very good season next year, I could argue for Tyus Battle in this spot.

Devendorf was a highly-skilled two, but great players rise to the occasion and my memory of Devendorf is that he was only as good as his surrounding cast. Same, to a lesser extent, with Jonny Flynn.

Brandon Triche might find a spot among those ten, but this highlights what a strange list this is: there's a lot of decent and good but very little great in the last decade. Sign of the times, I guess.

I would love nothing more than for Battle to replace Devo on my list after next season. I actually couldn't stand Devo and I can't disagree with your points about him.

 

[RF2044]

Post GMac:


1) Waiters
2) Wes
3) Fair
4) Flynn
5) Gbinije
6) MCW
7) Onuaku
8) Christmas
9) Nichols
10) Joseph

 

[Zelda Zonk]

1. Pearl
2. DC
3. Carmelo
4. Sherm
5. Wallace
6. Moten
7. Billy
8. GMac
9. Hak
10. CJ
--
11. DNich
12. Rony
13. Stevie

 

[Waltdods]

I'd like to play along with a list for that era, but it's really challenging. Between the early-entrant trend and the increasingly heavy hand of coaches in micromanaging the game, I don't know where to begin.

Quick thought:
1) Wes Johnson
2) Onuaku
3) Waiters
4) Nichols
5) Jardine
6) Fair
7) Christmas
8) Melo
9) Joseph
10) Gbinije? Or Paul Harris? With a very good season next year, I could argue for Tyus Battle in this spot.

Devendorf was a highly-skilled two, but great players rise to the occasion and my memory of Devendorf is that he was only as good as his surrounding cast. Same, to a lesser extent, with Jonny Flynn.

Brandon Triche might find a spot among those ten, but this highlights what a strange list this is: there's a lot of decent and good but very little great in the last decade. Sign of the times, I guess.

I think you (and many others) are significantly underrating Jonny Flynn. He was the best player on a 3-seed, Sweet 16 team. He averaged 17 points and 7 assists (!). He was an incredibly electric player. I think people have forgotten how good that '09 team, and Flynn in particular, was. That season was somewhat of a weird transition one, historically - the bridge from the disappointing mid-aughts teams into the excellent teams of 2010-13. But that team was very good on its own merit, and Flynn was the primary reason why.

And I'll repeat my earlier contention that folks majorly overrate Wes Johnson. Just to tie these two points together - in his sophomore season, Flynn averaged more than a point a game more than Wes while also contributing 7 assists a game. (Yes, he wasn't as efficient a scorer, but Wes's role as spot up shooter and dunker is always going to be more efficient than a guy who actually has to dribble.)

 

[OttoMets]

I think you (and many others) are significantly underrating Jonny Flynn. He was the best player on a 3-seed, Sweet 16 team. He averaged 17 points and 7 assists (!). He was an incredibly electric player. I think people have forgotten how good that '09 team, and Flynn in particular, was. That season was somewhat of a weird transition one, historically - the bridge from the disappointing mid-aughts teams into the excellent teams of 2010-13. But that team was very good on its own merit, and Flynn was the primary reason why.

And I'll repeat my earlier contention that folks majorly overrate Wes Johnson. Just to tie these two points together - in his sophomore season, Flynn averaged more than a point a game more than Wes while also contributing 7 assists a game. (Yes, he wasn't as efficient a scorer, but Wes's role as spot up shooter and dunker is always going to be more efficient than a guy who actually has to dribble.)

I can't argue any of that. My bias is showing. Flynn had a lot of offensive skill and there's no doubt his two teams would've been much worse without him.

 

[cuseinseattle]

I'm going to go:

1. Pearl Washington - He started everything and I would argue much of what happened would have never come to pass. He as the #1 HS player in the country and the made every kid in NYC want to wear orange. After he came everyone knew Syracuse as Boeheim has said. Without out him who knows what would have happened. We could have been a middle of the road team in the Big East and gotten eaten alive. He changed everything.

2. Derrick Coleman - He is the most talented player I think we ever had. More than Pearl even. I really thought he was going have a Karl Malone type NBA career. Even though that never happened he was still amazing and stayed 4 years. If his back had been ok we would have beaten Illinois and won the whole thing. I was 10 years old at the time and this event almost broke me. I went to elementary school with a kid who had just moved from Illinois and I told my mom that I needed to change schools. She didn't understand. Still doesn't.

3. Sherman Douglas - Maybe he should be lower I'm not sure but I just love him so much this is the lowest he could be. I wasn't old enough to experience Pearl when it happened. This was the first player I ever followed when I was in 2nd grade. I wanted to be him and thought he was the best. I would practice alley oop passed by my self outside my house. My dad came out and said why do you keep air balling the ball. You normally make them. I told him I was working on my Sherman Douglas alley oop passed. I probably went back in the house thinking his kid was crazy.

4. Carmelo Anthony - It may have been 1 year but it was amazing and he was amazing. My brother was at the final 4 that year trying to get a coaching job and was given tickets. He texted me during the Texas game and said Melo was dominating that game like no individui

5. John Wallace - I think he really gets overlooked. He decided to stay home and not go to UK even though he knew that he wasn't going to play in the tourney as a freshman. His senior year we go to the Final 4 and it really allowed for not having a lot of down years right after.

6. Billy Owens - One of my favorite offensive players to watch. It was so cool having a Cuse guy on the cover of SI back before the regional covers. That was a big deal. Great player and kind of gets overlooked at time because of the other good players right before him and during him.

7. Roosevelt Bouie - Does Boeheim win 100 games in the first 4 years and really get the thing going with Bouie. I'm not sure. I think the fact he is such a great guy and kind of soft spoken means he gets a little overlooked. Maybe also because it was right before the Big East came to be. What a player though judging from the footage I've seen.

8. Lawrence Moten - Old reliable. This is probably too low for the all time leading scoring in program history but it's not because he wasn't great. It's amazing how he would always score when he wasn't a great perimeter shooter or a really quick guy. Just so smart. The more I think about it I'm not sure how he did it. Great player and I spent 4 years of my childhood wearing socks up to my knee because of him. I got made fun of non-stop. I'm not sure what it was like in Syracuse but in Portland, Oregon there wasn't quite the big Lawrence Moten following.

9. Rony Seikaly - Best offensive big man we have ever had. He was on some amazing teams and went on to have a solid NBA career. I always liked other players on the teams that he was on more than him so he was never my favorite but still respected his game and thought he was good.

10. Johnny Flynn - This last spot was hard. I was thinking Flynn, G-Mac or Warrick and just went with Flynn because he basically averaged 16 points and 6 assists in two years and was a lottery pick. If he had been healthy and had a good 10-12 NBA career I think he would be looked at way differently. He also was the Big East Tourney MVP and was a mad man in the 6 OT. Maybe it's wrong to pick him because of that but it was down to him and Warrick who I also love. Warrick probably should get it for the block in the title game so I could go that way too. Both great players.

 

[Shawn91111]

Sure these are all opinions and personal etc. I just don't see how Wallace is ahead of Owens

 

[tbonezone]

"It's problematic that Moten's two iconic moments (well, other than a mouth-to-mouth kiss with Mike Hopkins) were a) a five-second call to lose a Big East tournament game and b) an even more unspeakable mistake to lose an even more important game."

whole lotta great players came thru the BIG EAST. lawrence moten was leading scorer. (and a good defender).

 

[cuseinseattle]

Sure these are all opinions and personal etc. I just don't see how Wallace is ahead of Owens

I was probably thinking more on affect on the program. I'm not suggesting Wallace is better than Owens. Wallace was part of a different time and he got us to the final 4 with Z, Burgan, Cipolla and Hill. Owens never got to the final 4 and he played with DC, the General and Stevie Thompson.

 

[tbonezone]

had billy owens returned for his senior season at syracuse then there is your all time leading scorer.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Sure these are all opinions and personal etc. I just don't see how Wallace is ahead of Owens

I have a 'memory distortion' where Owens is concerned. I really liked him as a player, and the few times i saw him on campus, he seemed like such a good person. But, i saw the physical attributes and skills, and all i can remember are disappointments. I thought he would have been a better shooter, if he had more of a DC attitude, but i saw him as thinking/caring to much about the outcome... And wasn't he there through the same era as Charles Smith and Jerome Lane at Pitt? Is my recollection off, when i 'remember' us being beaten by those guys too often, with Owens coming up short against them? Checking wiki, maybe they only had one season against each other... I dunno... It's weird with him — i expected more, and yet his statistics are pretty fantastic.

I have Wallace ahead of him for his Alpha Dog mentality and the '96 run.

 

[tbonezone]

i throw a little weight to the guys who stuck around a few seasons. and i know that's old school now. carmelo was certainly transcendent and brought home our only title. but a lot of the early leapers i frankly have no real affinity for and will rank some old time stickers above them . thread is about what did you do here . not after you left early.
that's why guys like louis orr,hakim warrick and john wallace deserve a nod. steady numbers and improvement
so some young talented players with upside like say tyler lydon will never be part of this future conversation.

 

[billsin01]

I'd like to play along with a list for that era, but it's really challenging. Between the early-entrant trend and the increasingly heavy hand of coaches in micromanaging the game, I don't know where to begin.

Quick thought:
1) Wes Johnson
2) Onuaku
3) Waiters
4) Nichols
5) Jardine
6) Fair
7) Christmas
8) Melo
9) Joseph
10) Gbinije? Or Paul Harris? With a very good season next year, I could argue for Tyus Battle in this spot.

Devendorf was a highly-skilled two, but great players rise to the occasion and my memory of Devendorf is that he was only as good as his surrounding cast. Same, to a lesser extent, with Jonny Flynn.

Brandon Triche might find a spot among those ten, but this highlights what a strange list this is: there's a lot of decent and good but very little great in the last decade. Sign of the times, I guess.

Interesting take. I love the Onuaku at 2 call -- bold, maybe a bit higher than i'd have him but I think he's really underrated in terms of just how dominant he was once he got the ball in the post. Xmas is tough to rank, IMO, b/c his senior year was really impressive -- I mean, one of the best seasons from a true post player that we've seen. But his first three years were simply brutal, IMO. I don't know how to score that.

Triche to me is nowhere close -- Good kid, worked hard, solid contributor, but I struggle to list anything he really excelled at. Even defense was solid but not game-changing in any way.