Reality check...U-Con has put in place a better system

[orangehipfan]

And we'll keep winning games and getting into position to be a F4 team. 2013 we were a F4 team. 2012 we were positioned to be a F4 team until Fab was booted. In 2010, we were in position to be a F4 team until AO's injury. Sheet happens. We don't, but could just as easily have had 3 F4's in the last 5 years along with the huge number of wins.

let's look at JB's NCAA tournament history. I believe his overall tournament (NCAA) record in 38 years is 53 - 30. The 4 final four years have a combined record of 20 - 3. That leaves a record of 33 - 27 for the other 34 years.

Yes I get it his teams did not make the tournament every year but typical tournament performance is a shade above. 500 leaving out the 4 trips to the final 4 (like we did this year), win one, lose one. To keep harping on 2010 & 2012 is nice but I would guess somewhere along the line we played a team that may have had an injury at some point in the season. UCONN & Kentucky have not had season's with no adversity and they are still playing. Remember in 2010 we were 4 -3 in our last 7 games prior to the NCAA tournament. We were very good but did we maybe peak early? And by the way the conference record for the Big East in the tournament that year was 8 - 8, hardly spectacular.

This is not a knock on the coach, players, program or anything else. It is reality and if some want to continue to say we are "elite", I think the numbers would say otherwise. Solid, yes, something to be proud of, yes. I am as big a fan as anybody but continuously talking about what may have been detracts from reality. Things even out over the 38 years.

 

[HOFCeluck]

let's look at JB's NCAA tournament history. I believe his overall tournament (NCAA) record in 38 years is 53 - 30. The 4 final four years have a combined record of 20 - 3. That leaves a record of 33 - 27 for the other 34 years.

Yes I get it his teams did not make the tournament every year but typical tournament performance is a shade above. 500 leaving out the 4 trips to the final 4 (like we did this year), win one, lose one. To keep harping on 2010 & 2012 is nice but I would guess somewhere along the line we played a team that may have had an injury at some point in the season. UCONN & Kentucky have not had season's with no adversity and they are still playing. Remember in 2010 we were 4 -3 in our last 7 games prior to the NCAA tournament. We were very good but did we maybe peak early? And by the way the conference record for the Big East in the tournament that year was 8 - 8, hardly spectacular.

This is not a knock on the coach, players, program or anything else. It is reality and if some want to continue to say we are "elite", I think the numbers would say otherwise. Solid, yes, something to be proud of, yes. I am as big a fan as anybody but continuously talking about what may have been detracts from reality. Things even out over the 38 years.

Go back to Syracuse.com with this garbage. You don't get to cherry pick the results you want to use and then call that "reality," or claim that your not trying to "knock" anyone.

 

[SWC75]

let's look at JB's NCAA tournament history. I believe his overall tournament (NCAA) record in 38 years is 53 - 30. The 4 final four years have a combined record of 20 - 3. That leaves a record of 33 - 27 for the other 34 years.

Yes, let's discount the Final Four years and just look at the other ones. And what is the record of the other top coaches when you take away their Final Fours?

 

[SarasotaPaul]

because the coaches and players are not above criticism...


nobody's ripping on anyone, at least from what i've seen, it's all just been criticism.

So what is ripping then? Why do people claim they are not ripping someone when that is exactly what they are doing. Is it some unknown politically correct word to avoid? Criticism is ripping, just a different word. And some of the rippings/criticisms are extreme to the point that ripping would be a mild word to use.

 

[retro44]

Bayside, They're bringing in a nice class next year.

There's a reason why we joined the ACC; to separate ourselves from UConn.

yup...they are bringing in 2- 4 star recruits in 2015.

one is the no.6 rated point guard.

Plus a 5 star kid this year. No.2 SG

Not exactly hurting recruiting yet

 

[Henny & Coke]

Kudos to MCW, but he didn't play that way last year.

You're kidding, right?

MCW's 2012-13 season (also his first as starter) resulted in:

2nd most assists in a season in SU History - 292 assists (1st is Sherm with 326 in 88-89)

Most steals ever in a season in SU History - 111 steals (2nd is James Thues with 101 in 01-02)

Tied for 2nd highest steal avg-per-game in season in SU History - 2.8 steals per game (1st is Jason Hart with 3.1 in 98-99)

Highest assist avg-per-game in season with 7.2 since Lazarus Sims in 95-96.

Best rebounding Guard at SU, with 5.0 rebound avg-per-game, since Josh Pace had 5.3 in 03-04. MCW was also 2nd in total rebounds on team last year with 199 total (FYI, Craig Forth's highest total rebounds in season - 179)

And put up 24 points (39% of total SU points scored), 1 assist, 5 rebounds, 4 steals,1 block & only 1 turnover in Sweet 16 game vs #1 seed Indiana (while playing against #2 overall NBA draft pick Victor Oladipo)...

Followed by another great game vs Marquette in Elite 8, when he went for 12 points, 6 assists, 8 rebounds, 5 steals, 1 block & only 1 turnover...

On way to leading SU to Final Four with a surrounding cast of (mostly) role players like Triche, Southerland, RAK, Keita & Fair.

But yeah, nothing special.

 

[NineOneSeven]

You're kidding, right?

MCW's 2012-13 season (also his first as starter) resulted in:

2nd most assists in a season in SU History - 292 assists (1st is Sherm with 326 in 88-89)

Most steals ever in a season in SU History - 111 steals (2nd is James Thues with 101 in 01-02)

Tied for 2nd highest steal avg-per-game in season in SU History - 2.8 steals per game (1st is Jason Hart with 3.1 in 98-99)

Highest assist avg-per-game in season with 7.2 since Lazarus Sims in 95-96.

Best rebounding Guard at SU, with 5.0 rebound avg-per-game, since Josh Pace had 5.3 in 03-04. MCW was also 2nd in total rebounds on team last year with 199 total (FYI, Craig Forth's highest total rebounds in season - 179)

And put up 24 points (39% of total SU points scored), 1 assist, 5 rebounds, 4 steals,1 block & only 1 turnover in Sweet 16 game vs #1 seed Indiana (while playing against #2 overall NBA draft pick Victor Oladipo) on way to leading SU to Final Four with a surrounding cast of (mostly) role players like Triche, Southerland, RAK, Keita & Fair.

But yeah, nothing special.

Almost had a quadruple double in his first career pro game, but he only learned that skill after leaving SU, of course.

 

[rrlbees]

You're kidding, right?

MCW's 2012-13 season (also his first as starter) resulted in:

2nd most assists in a season in SU History - 292 assists (1st is Sherm with 326 in 88-89)

Most steals ever in a season in SU History - 111 steals (2nd is James Thues with 101 in 01-02)

Tied for 2nd highest steal avg-per-game in season in SU History - 2.8 steals per game (1st is Jason Hart with 3.1 in 98-99)

Highest assist avg-per-game in season with 7.2 since Lazarus Sims in 95-96.

Best rebounding Guard at SU, with 5.0 rebound avg-per-game, since Josh Pace had 5.3 in 03-04. MCW was also 2nd in total rebounds on team last year with 199 total (FYI, Craig Forth's highest total rebounds in season - 179)

And put up 24 points (39% of total SU points scored), 1 assist, 5 rebounds, 4 steals,1 block & only 1 turnover in Sweet 16 game vs #1 seed Indiana (while playing against #2 overall NBA draft pick Victor Oladipo)...

Followed by another great game vs Marquette in Elite 8, when he went for 12 points, 6 assists, 8 rebounds, 5 steals, 1 block & only 1 turnover...

On way to leading SU to Final Four with a surrounding cast of (mostly) role players like Triche, Southerland, RAK, Keita & Fair.

But yeah, nothing special.

Where did I say he was special or didn't have some big games. What I said was his ROY season he is having right now was not how he played last year. You point up some highlights but there were also many games where he either made bad decision, made many bad turnovers, shot poorly when he shouldn't haven't taken so many shots, and of course the forays into the Lane and in the air with no idea what to do.

Again, I'm not saying he wasn't our key player to the F4 or that he didn't have a great year. Just that what he is now doing in the NBA could not be predicted based on last season.

 

[sufandu]

At some point Ollie is selling a lesser product. The Boat show, Napier, etc all signed up for us, Pitt, ND, Gtown, etc...and it would've gone fine had St Joe not pissed that one away.

I don't think this matters as much in basketball as it does in football. If UConn can work off of this success, do well in the tournament, and schedule good OOC conference games, there's no reason kids won't want to go there.

 

[TheCusian]

Where did I say he was special or didn't have some big games. What I said was his ROY season he is having right now was not how he played last year. You point up some highlights but there were also many games where he either made bad decision, made many bad turnovers, shot poorly when he shouldn't haven't taken so many shots, and of course the forays into the Lane and in the air with no idea what to do. Again, I'm not saying he wasn't our key player to the F4 or that he didn't have a great year. Just that what he is now doing in the NBA could not be predicted based on last season.

When I left college to focus on my career full time, I got better too. His improvement could have been predicted - as in his skills were transferable and his size and athleticism were easily NBA calibre. Given time to focus on basketball full-time with increased competition? Not shocked at all.

 

[Bayside44]

I don't think this matters as much in basketball as it does in football. If UConn can work off of this success, do well in the tournament, and schedule good OOC conference games, there's no reason kids won't want to go there.

Banking on a couple of non conference games, not easy. Hard to tell kids parents they can drive to games in Texas, Florida, Ohio, etc.

 

[sufandu]

Banking on a couple of non conference games, not easy. Hard to tell kids parents they can drive to games in Texas, Florida, Ohio, etc.

Who does Kentucky play in conference that kids care about? Florida? That's the only other SEC team that anyone talks about right now, but Cal still pulls in the recruits. He can do it because he has a reputation of tournament success and getting kids to the NBA. Ollie may be establishing the first half of that equation right now. If they get to where they're dominating the AAC and getting 2 seeds with 2-3 loss records, kids won't care who they're playing against during the season, as long as they're playing deep into March.

 

[SarasotaPaul]

Who does Kentucky play in conference that kids care about? Florida? That's the only other SEC team that anyone talks about right now, but Cal still pulls in the recruits. He can do it because he has a reputation of tournament success and getting kids to the NBA. Ollie may be establishing the first half of that equation right now. If they get to where they're dominating the AAC and getting 2 seeds with 2-3 loss records, kids won't care who they're playing against during the season, as long as they're playing deep into March.

Lets not forget how sleazy Cal is. Just look at the trail he has left behind himself with sanctions. At least at Kentucky that "system" was in place already.

Ollie on the other hand ticks me off. He seems to be a sincerely good guy and very good coach.

 

[sufandu]

Lets not forget how sleazy Cal is. Just look at the trail he has left behind himself with sanctions. At least at Kentucky that "system" was in place already.

Ollie on the other hand ticks me off. He seems to be a sincerely good guy and very good coach.

That's true, but I'm not saying UConn will recruit at Kentucky's level. I'm saying they can still recruit at the level they've been recruiting at as long as they continue to have success in the tournament.

 

[rrlbees]

That's true, but I'm not saying UConn will recruit at Kentucky's level. I'm saying they can still recruit at the level they've been recruiting at as long as they continue to have success in the tournament.

Wait till the big boys break away from the mid majors so they can have all the money. I could see another UConn lawsuit.

 

[rrlbees]

When I left college to focus on my career full time, I got better too. His improvement could have been predicted - as in his skills were transferable and his size and athleticism were easily NBA calibre. Given time to focus on basketball full-time with increased competition? Not shocked at all.

If his season was so predictable he would have been drafted higher. #11 is good but he's playing like #1.

 

[two3zone]

Wait till the big boys break away from the mid majors so they can have all the money. I could see another UConn lawsuit.

What big boys are left?

 

[sufandu]

What big boys are left?

I think he means when the major conferences break away from the NCAA.

 

[rrlbees]

What big boys are left?

Never heard of the power 5?

 

[anomander]

You're kidding, right?

MCW's 2012-13 season (also his first as starter) resulted in:

2nd most assists in a season in SU History - 292 assists (1st is Sherm with 326 in 88-89)

Most steals ever in a season in SU History - 111 steals (2nd is James Thues with 101 in 01-02)

Tied for 2nd highest steal avg-per-game in season in SU History - 2.8 steals per game (1st is Jason Hart with 3.1 in 98-99)

Highest assist avg-per-game in season with 7.2 since Lazarus Sims in 95-96.

Best rebounding Guard at SU, with 5.0 rebound avg-per-game, since Josh Pace had 5.3 in 03-04. MCW was also 2nd in total rebounds on team last year with 199 total (FYI, Craig Forth's highest total rebounds in season - 179)

And put up 24 points (39% of total SU points scored), 1 assist, 5 rebounds, 4 steals,1 block & only 1 turnover in Sweet 16 game vs #1 seed Indiana (while playing against #2 overall NBA draft pick Victor Oladipo)...

Followed by another great game vs Marquette in Elite 8, when he went for 12 points, 6 assists, 8 rebounds, 5 steals, 1 block & only 1 turnover...

On way to leading SU to Final Four with a surrounding cast of (mostly) role players like Triche, Southerland, RAK, Keita & Fair.

But yeah, nothing special.

Don't forget he was also the best guard defender that we have ever had at Syracuse.

.

Again, I'm not saying he wasn't our key player to the F4 or that he didn't have a great year. Just that what he is now doing in the NBA could not be predicted based on last season.

I don't know about that.. Henry & Coke and myself were 2 of his biggest supporters last year when everyone was hammering him. I thought all along he was going to be a much better pro then college player just because his game is better suited for the NBA style. Then again the whole board had him pegged for the D-Leauge by January, kind of like everyone is on Ennis right now.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I'm sick and tired of losing to eleven seeds.

Most years We have a good to great regular season that puts us in a position to get a protected seed in the tournament. All year we argue how important it is to be a 1, 2, or 3 seed, but is it important? Seeding and the regular season has little value except for a programs bottom line. I've usually always agreed with everything JB does, but this is the first offseason I have become supremely annoyed. Yes I know we were in the final four last year, and probably would of beat Michigan had JB put the ball in Triches hands over MCW sooner, but this years flameout rubbed me the wrong way.

There is no way with the talent and coaching we have that we should have lost four times in ten years to double digit seeds. Yes I know Duke and Kansas have their upsets as well, but I'm frustrated.

Look at all the regular season wins and division titles the Philadelphia Eagles have put up the last 15 years. They pretty much have been the most consistent team in the NFC east in that time period and have zero titles to show for it, and then you have the giants who have won two titles barely getting in the playoffs.

Yes it's awesome to be consistent and good every year, and I bleed orange through and through, but unless we have more postseason success a big part of our fans are going to be frustrated, especially when our formal rival always seems to churn out mediocre regular seasons, but can catch lightning in a bottle for a couple weeks at a time.

For a second time in my lifetime I just want all the chips to fall into place for us. And yes let's be honest, the board wouldn't be nearly annoyed about syracuse losing early, if Michigan state was playing Kentucky instead of uconn.

 

[sufandu]

Don't forget he was also the best guard defender that we have ever had at Syracuse.

I don't think I agree with that. He was great at getting steals, but some of that was a function of the design of our defense. Our success with getting steals at the top of our zone, regardless of who's there, the last few years shows that. Didn't we have the #1 and #2 guys in steals in the ACC this year? Neither of those guys are considered lock down defenders. He wasn't nearly the on ball defender Jason Hart was.

 

[anomander]

I don't think I agree with that. He was great at getting steals, but some of that was a function of the design of our defense. Our success with getting steals at the top of our zone, regardless of who's there, the last few years shows that. Didn't we have the #1 and #2 guys in steals in the ACC this year? Neither of those guys are considered lock down defenders. He wasn't nearly the on ball defender Jason Hart was.

I guess we will see but imo he will make several NBA All Defensive teams before it's said and done. Tough college comparison since we played much more man to man back then.

And don't you agree defensive on the top of the zone was much better last year despite this years steal numbers?

 

[Full_Rebar]

Wait till the big boys break away from the mid majors so they can have all the money. I could see another UConn lawsuit.

This is why Ollie will go to the NBA, why Buzz took less money to go to Va Tech, etc. Once the P5 break away, these other schools are all going to suffer. At the rate Emmert and the NCAA are going, it's going to happen in the next 5-10 years.

 

[sufandu]

I guess we will see but imo he will make several NBA All Defensive teams before it's said and done. Tough college comparison since we played much more man to man back then.

And don't you agree defensive on the top of the zone was much better last year despite this years steal numbers?

It was better last year, but I also saw MCW have difficulty keeping small quick guards in front of him last year. Most of his steals came the same way we got steals this year, deflections from other defenders or jumping in passing lanes. Much of this is from the design of the defense. MCW obviously used his length to do it better than our guys this year, but the fact that Ennis is considered a weak defender and he still got 2 per game shows the scheme has a strong influence on it.

You're right that it might be hard to compare the two because of the era, but I've never seen another Syracuse guard D up on an opposing guard and harass him the way Hart did. And I don't say this as a Hart apologist. He used to drive me crazy with his tendency to drive into the lane too deep while rarely, if ever, dishing to someone inside or kicking it out to the perimeter. I also cringed everytime I saw him pull up for a 3 with that table top flat jumper of his. It probably is worth mentioning that he was able to stay in the NBA as long as he did despite how offensively challenged he was.