Red or Players, which is it

[newmexicuse]

It was obvious from the beginning that this team lacked three point shooting. It was also obvious that the frontcourt was full of question marks.

Bell gives us three point shooting, but at the cost of rebounding amongst other things. Maybe he turned the corner on rebounding with the 5 or 6 he grabbed against the Ville.

Looking back at the off-season, as others say, losing Jesse was huge and should have been avoidable. MacLeod showed flashes at FSU, I think the staff thought that they could improve his consistency. Didnt happen.

I think the staff thought Justin would be a viable trey option and that Benny would make a jump. Those expectations didnt work out.

So, yes, there was a talent mis-evaluation and that is on the staff.

However, we must remember Red had just been promoted. He may not have been in a position to grab the better portal talent. You certainly cant bury a guy for not turning around a roster in a month or two.

This off-season will be a big test for him. He already has two talented frosh coming in who will be at least rotation players if not starters. He needs to add at least two very solid frontcourt players and a solid guard from the portal. I hope one of the frontcourt guys will not be another stringbean and will be a player who can add toughness, D, and rebounding.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

It's a talent issue, but because the skill sets don't mesh. We're too limited when it comes to 3 point shooting (Bell is the only legit threat, it took Starling a bit, Taylor has had a rough year, Judah started hot and has fizzled), and we don't have enough rebounders. Jesse leaving really set us back. The hope was McCleod would be viable/would be our best option at the 5, he wasn't really, and he's injured anyway.

The talent just isn't in the places on the floor we need, doing more of the things we need to make the game easier.

I do think Freeman and Moore will help a lot next season.

 

[Brooky03]

red has way more access to getting recruits than JB had recently

recruits want to play for Red! they want him as their coach!

these guys like chance, jj, etc...they didnt come bc of JB. lets be real.

as soon as JB was gone they flocked.

so...giving red a pass due to not having the talent and doing better than recent seasons rings hollow to me.

he took a bunch of swings in the portal and ...what does he have to show for those choices?

he had the chance to shape the roster in whatever image he wanted to this offseason ...and messed it up.

yeah some bad luck

I just hope he learns from this and does better next offseason.

Westry was not a big swing by any measure. While he might not have been the exact guy we got without the coaching change, he’s in line with the caliber of transfer we’d come to expect under JB. Regardless, he got hurt. That’s not on Red.

Starling came because of Red. No question there. Starling hasn’t been as good as we had hoped, but honestly hasn’t been much different than he was at ND.

Other than that, Red lost Jesse - who was a huge piece of the team - to free agency. Can’t fault Red there.

McLeod was a stop-gap to fill Jesse’s spot. There aren’t often talented Centers available in the portal who aren’t looking for a big bag of money. Unicorns. Red got what he could get.

The rest of the talent on the roster is what he inherited. He absolutely did not have the pick of the litter in the transfer portal. And he obviously had no chance to recruit HS kids; the recruiting cycle was wayyy past finished when he got the job. So, the idea that he had the time or opportunity to shape this roster how he wanted is bologna.

 

[Cuse181]

You assume Red could just go out a pick up whatever players he wanted. Hate to break it to you, but recruiting doesn’t work that way.
The promise of man to man and fast break offense wasn’t enough to lure really good portal kids (Westry tbd.)

he couldn’t gotten more than he did. Plenty of kids ending up at mid tier schools who would’ve had an impact here. Who else was even after Cuffe and McLeod? Anyone?

 

[LAorange44]

Syracuse has ridiculously high standards because of JB. As Red develops, the question we need to keep an eye on is whether Red is on the road to becoming a top 25 coach. Only 57 coaches since 1985 have made a final four, with the average doing it 10 years into their career. Is Red there right now? Clearly not. But we will hopefully see improvement as he develops and makes the jump each year.

 

[Eric15]

What worries me about Red is the lack of offensive creativity/ingenuity. It seems to be a continuation of JB’s last half dozen years or so where it was heavily predicated on iso ball. I understand that it’s Year 1 and that patience is important. I think expecting fan patience in regards to roster building is perfectly reasonable, but I absolutely do not think offensive coaching philosophy should be a “learn on a job” thing for a program of our stature.

Colgate was very close to beating us three straight years. It wasn’t due to portal talent. It was due to extremely good coaching related to fundamentals and offensive scheme.

 

[Sbucketball]

It's a talent issue, but because the skill sets don't mesh. We're too limited when it comes to 3 point shooting (Bell is the only legit threat, it took Starling a bit, Taylor has had a rough year, Judah started hot and has fizzled), and we don't have enough rebounders. Jesse leaving really set us back. The hope was McCleod would be viable/would be our best option at the 5, he wasn't really, and he's injured anyway.

The talent just isn't in the places on the floor we need, doing more of the things we need to make the game easier.

I do think Freeman and Moore will help a lot next season.

It's complete dumb luck, but Freeman and Moore are perfect recruits for our biggest weaknesses this year - replacing Taylor/Benny at PF and getting a guard who can shoot. We obviously need portal help, but still pretty solid luck on our part.

 

[FrancoPizza]

What worries me about Red is the lack of offensive creativity/ingenuity. It seems to be a continuation of JB’s last half dozen years or so where it was heavily predicated on iso ball.

THIS. Unless we have NBA talent at multiple positions we should never be relying on ISO. My question is - did Red decide that everything he learned at Virginia Tech did not translate to SU? Wasn't Straughn supposed to provide some offensive concepts? What about Red's offensive game plan were the boosters so impressed with?

 

[Cuse181]

Westry was not a big swing by any measure. While he might not have been the exact guy we got without the coaching change, he’s in line with the caliber of transfer we’d come to expect under JB. Regardless, he got hurt. That’s not on Red.

Starling came because of Red. No question there. Starling hasn’t been as good as we had hoped, but honestly hasn’t been much different than he was at ND.

Other than that, Red lost Jesse - who was a huge piece of the team - to free agency. Can’t fault Red there.

McLeod was a stop-gap to fill Jesse’s spot. There aren’t often talented Centers available in the portal who aren’t looking for a big bag of money. Unicorns. Red got what he could get.

The rest of the talent on the roster is what he inherited. He absolutely did not have the pick of the litter in the transfer portal. And he obviously had no chance to recruit HS kids; the recruiting cycle was wayyy past finished when he got the job. So, the idea that he had the time or opportunity to shape this roster how he wanted, is bologna.

The problem with McLeod is he didn’t fill any hole. He has no offensive game, didn’t rebound all that well and wasn’t athletic enough to play man to man defense in effective manner. Had they stick in the 2-3 then he’s probably a decent pickup, but they knew man to man was where they were going.

As for the rest of the roster, if guys weren’t ACC caliber then they shouldn’t have been there. I find it hard to believe that with the NIL money we supposedly have that there wasn’t a single player interested in Syracuse who was better than Taylor or bell.

 

[Brooky03]

The problem with McLeod is he didn’t fill any hole. He has no offensive game, didn’t rebound all that well and wasn’t athletic enough to play man to man defense in effective manner. Had they stick in the 2-3 then he’s probably a decent pickup, but they knew man to man was where they were going.

As for the rest of the roster, if guys weren’t ACC caliber then they shouldn’t have been there. I find it hard to believe that with the NIL money we supposedly have that there wasn’t a single player interested in Syracuse who was better than Taylor or bell.

The portal is not as flush with talent as people perceive it to be. Taylor and Bell are the types who transfer.

And our NIL money is not, or was not, impressive at all. That’s evidenced by Jesse bouncing. We couldn’t, or wouldn’t, match West Virginia NIL money. West Virginia…

Red has some recruiting inroads in the Northeast and seems likable, but guys aren’t clamoring to play for him. Outside of guys he developed relationships with during HS, I doubt news of his promotion had many transfers thinking, “Oh boy, Red Autry! I gotta get there.” Promising an uptempo style of basketball is a nice pitch, a pitch that probably 60 other schools also have.

 

[Bayside44]

I'm not optimistic about the rest of the season but we should have an OK record.

His portal guys were pretty highly rated and have let him down big time. We'll see next year. I don't think the ACC will get crazy hard overnight if he can improve the team to be better than .500 in the ACC and actually compete with ranked teams I will be happy. Years 3/4 I want to actually be legit.

?

JJ after a slow start is pretty much where he need to be. Westry being hurt isn't really letting AA down, similar Naheem (not great but still something of a rim protector and space eater).

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

?

JJ after a slow start is pretty much where he need to be. Westry being hurt isn't really letting AA down, similar Naheem (not great but still something of a rim protector and space eater).

I include injury with that. We didn't take any freshmen. 2 injured guys and a very poor defensive player who is around Joe Girard's level defensively.

Boeheims last class may have looked WAY better if we got more from the portal Brown and Cope are high end defenders who make a lot of things happen Judah is Judah and Bell would be a great streaky bench guy who can go off when its his night. I'm not saying Starling is awful but a big part of the problem is he is getting the Buddy treatment and plays every minute of every game.

 

[kcsu]

I support Red and hope he succeeds. But we’ve been spoiled by having a top 10 coach for decades. It is unrealistic to expect Red to be JB in year one. JB coached 1,500+ games and Red has coached just north of 20. We are part of the middle class of coaches. Here’s what I’ve noticed.

While the players are what they are, they haven’t gotten better as the season has gone on. Our defense has been getting worse each game since the Pitt road game. Likewise, our offense is abysmal and below average for college ball. While our offense has been slightly less abysmal the last few games, we are hardly rolling into February and March in peak form, another hallmark of the Boeheim teams. JB’s teams always improved to the point where we were dangerous. Not seeing it with this team despite the strong start and conference wins so far. Louisville, Wake, Clemson all seem better than they were a month ago.

The 20.8 average margin of loss is disturbing. JB’s last 3 teams had average loss margins of 10-13 pts. Is the current crop of players that much worse than the Boeheim Bros and Joe Girard years? No. Nor is the ACC that much better. I think most believed we were coming into this year with an upgraded roster due to Red’s portal wizardry. What I think the difference in loss differential highlights is JB’s expertise in in-game adjustments, unrelenting competitiveness, and as a motivator. Red and the current staff in their current ability are a step down from JB in that regard. But again, we are comparing a first year coach to an all time great.

So it’s probably a little of both. Our players aren’t as good as we had hoped. And the team isn’t competiting as hard as our previous teams have, which I think falls on coaching. It is what it is and showcases how hard it is to replace a legend.

The legend hasn't been himself the last few years.

 

[kcsu]

Westry was not a big swing by any measure. While he might not have been the exact guy we got without the coaching change, he’s in line with the caliber of transfer we’d come to expect under JB. Regardless, he got hurt. That’s not on Red.

Starling came because of Red. No question there. Starling hasn’t been as good as we had hoped, but honestly hasn’t been much different than he was at ND.

Other than that, Red lost Jesse - who was a huge piece of the team - to free agency. Can’t fault Red there.

McLeod was a stop-gap to fill Jesse’s spot. There aren’t often talented Centers available in the portal who aren’t looking for a big bag of money. Unicorns. Red got what he could get.

The rest of the talent on the roster is what he inherited. He absolutely did not have the pick of the litter in the transfer portal. And he obviously had no chance to recruit HS kids; the recruiting cycle was wayyy past finished when he got the job. So, the idea that he had the time or opportunity to shape this roster how he wanted is bologna.

Great post

 

[CardiacCuse]

The portal is not as flush with talent as people perceive it to be. Taylor and Bell are the types who transfer.

And our NIL money is not, or was not, impressive at all. That’s evidenced by Jesse bouncing. We couldn’t, or wouldn’t, match West Virginia NIL money. West Virginia…

Red has some recruiting inroads in the Northeast and seems likable, but guys aren’t clamoring to play for him. Outside of guys he developed relationships with during HS, I doubt news of his promotion had many transfers thinking, “Oh boy, Red Autry! I gotta get there.” Promising an uptempo style of basketball is a nice pitch, a pitch that probably 60 other schools also have.

would jesse have bounced on JB? maybe but I doubt it

tell teams like Wake or St johns that the portal doesnt have talent...this is such a cop out.

some coaches know how to win regardless...some dont

I want a coach who can take any group and win...those coaches DO exist.

 

[jncuse]

Neither are the biggest factor. Not even close.

The biggest factor is the “relative” shambles this program has been progressing towards from 2015 to the end of last year. We have not been good for a while. Our brand is no longer tier 1 or tier 2 -- and the brand gets further devalued each passing year. We still have brand value of course, it's just lower. It makes getting talent more difficult than the golden years.

This is not to say the players / Red are without blame or can't be questioned when looking at this season on a singular level. Because on court play this year, there are some issues .But you need to understand where this program was, and where the program was left at from a macro, bigger picture level Our current 2023/2024 players and coaches have not been put in a position to be good because of the past failures in the recent 8 years of the former coach / program who left us with a strange identity / system in the new world.

Red may very well not be the solution - and the analysis starts at the beginning of this year. But you need to understand where the program is at as he stepped in.

 

[Goin' Deep]

coach...? players...??? whaaaa...?

The program is a shell of what it once was. We HAD high standards, but those haven't been met for nearly a decade.
JB was the legend- you could not question him...he was untouchable as HC and became the "Bad Cop". I think it's been obvious that the players like Autry. But does he know how to "crack the whip?"
I think he's learning now.
Recruiting has been puzzling with Bell being the perfect example. How is it such a "high standard program" recruits a player who can't play D or rebound? Is this a surprise? And Benny...talented but a hardworker?...team player?? Again, how did we not know what was being recruited?
Hima, McLeod, Westry...get them in here yippeeee!!!! and the "program" can't seem to get players like these in condition to play?

Hey, everybody/team may have these issues from time to time. But what we are seeing in 23/24 has been a calamity. CUSE has fallen way behind...failing to be competitive. And it just may be Wildhack has another program in need major renewal.

 

[Brooky03]

would jesse have bounced on JB? maybe but I doubt it

tell teams like Wake or St johns that the portal doesnt have talent...this is such a cop out.

some coaches know how to win regardless...some dont

I want a coach who can take any group and win...those coaches DO exist.

Yes, Jesse would have left regardless of the coach. It was 100% a money decision based on both Jesse’s words and what has been shared here by those ‘in the know.’

I didn’t say the portal doesn’t have talent. I said it has less talent than people think. Teams that are 15-7 and 14-9 with very few good wins between the two of them don’t bolster your argument.

At this level, the coaches you’re talking about are incredibly rare. Talent matters more than coaching. Both matter, certainly, but you have to clear the talent hurdle to have a real chance. By that, I mean there is a minimum of talent that has to be present. Short of that minimum, the coach can only do so much. We’re short of that minimum.

 

[orangecuse]

Neither are the biggest factor. Not even close.

The biggest factor is the “relative” shambles this program has been progressing towards from 2015 to the end of last year. We have not been good for a while. Our brand is no longer tier 1 or tier 2 -- and the brand gets further devalued each passing year. We still have brand value of course, it's just lower. It makes getting talent more difficult than the golden years.

This is not to say the players / Red are without blame or can't be questioned when looking at this season on a singular level. Because on court play this year, there are some issues .But you need to understand where this program was, and where the program was left at from a macro, bigger picture level Our current 2023/2024 players and coaches have not been put in a position to be good because of the past failures in the recent 8 years of the former coach / program who left us with a strange identity / system in the new world.

Red may very well not be the solution - and the analysis starts at the beginning of this year. But you need to understand where the program is at as he stepped in.

Truer words...

 

[Cuse181]

Yes, Jesse would have left regardless of the coach. It was 100% a money decision based on both Jesse’s words and what has been shared here by those ‘in the know.’

I didn’t say the portal doesn’t have talent. I said it has less talent than people think. Teams that are 15-7 and 14-9 with very few good wins between the two of them don’t bolster your argument.

At this level, the coaches you’re talking about are incredibly rare. Talent matters more than coaching. Both matter, certainly, but you have to clear the talent hurdle to have a real chance. By that, I mean there is a minimum of talent that has to be present. Short of that minimum, the coach can only do so much. We’re short of that minimum.

Those two teams are on the bubble/trending in while Syracuse is imploding. In no world should wake forest EVER be more talented than Syracuse, and they should certainly never have a better coach.

 

[Cuse2023]

he couldn’t gotten more than he did. Plenty of kids ending up at mid tier schools who would’ve had an impact here. Who else was even after Cuffe and McLeod? Anyone?

Mcleod had 20+ high majors after him in portal. At the time was definitely a big win for Red.

 

[Cuse181]

Mcleod had 20+ high majors after him in portal. At the time was definitely a big win for Red.

Yikes, you’re right, a couple high end teams scraping for a barely top 50 transfer center.

 

[Cuse2023]

Yikes, you’re right, a couple high end teams scraping for a barely top 50 transfer center.

Florida State big man Naheem McLeod told me he’s heard from these schools since entering the portal: Syracuse, St. John’s, Villanova, Gonzaga, Arizona, Clemson, South Carolina, Wake Forest, Texas, West Virginia, Georgetown, Memphis, Pitt, Butler, Minnesota, Rutgers, Ole Miss, Temple, Kansas, Miami

A couple high end teams?

 

[Col. Bleep]

There seems to be one major reason for this year's struggles: the failure to adequately replace Jesse Edwards.
Is there any doubt that if Jesse had stayed this would be a totally different team?

 

[rrlbees]

Florida State big man Naheem McLeod told me he’s heard from these schools since entering the portal: Syracuse, St. John’s, Villanova, Gonzaga, Arizona, Clemson, South Carolina, Wake Forest, Texas, West Virginia, Georgetown, Memphis, Pitt, Butler, Minnesota, Rutgers, Ole Miss, Temple, Kansas, Miami

A couple high end teams?

Two top 10 teams. I’d say that’s high end.