Red's system

[Fly Rodder]

I would love for us to find a lightening quick pg with the ball on a string. I don't care how small he is.

Gillon was such a great guard, just was too small to play zone as effectively as a 6'6" guy (he was still a good defender). The guy knew his job and executed: protect the ball, make good passes, hit open threes. Since 09-10 (100 poss cutoff), there have been 14 player seasons at SU with more than 1000 minutes played, more than 100 assists and a PER greater than 15 (average player). Gillon ranks 3rd in assist %, 4th in total assists (3 behind Ennis), 3rd in FT%, 1st in 3%, 13th in 2PA FGA, 11th in TOs, 14th in FGA.

I'd take that guy every year.

 

[djcon57]

Yeah it's interesting in that nobody has really answered the question.

Despite what Millhouse said, pushing the ball is a system. You are pushing the ball to get points before the defense is set. Watch the Pacers in the NBA now.

Some of you guys think like if you don't run Pete Carill's Princeton offense with backdoor cuts it's not a "system"

 

[RF2044]

The odds are against him coming up with anything new. He is a continuity hire. He's not some mad scientist coming up with anything of his own coming up through the ranks, he learned from a very old coach who probably isn't in the cutting edge despite his brilliance. Everyone helping him has the same background

It's just like football, we hope he recruits like mad. It's not gonna be enough

Agreed on all counts.

But on the other hand, Autry is a former lead guard who understands the game differently due to the quarterbacking responsibilities inherent in the position. My hope for this season was that we would see offensive variation from the past because of that.

We didn't see it. Jury's still out about whether that was due to personnel, or because he's a no-trick pony. But I agree, it is worrisome.

But even so, "coming up with anything new" could be assisted by making some changes to the coaching staff. Otherwise, you're probably right about status quo.

 

[Red2003]

Autry is a defense first coach. Aggressive man D and being physical. He learned a hard lesson with having too much unproven youth at the 4 and 5 this year. We were way too soft physically too but that will change.

The offense is secondary to him but is all about transition, fast pace, spacing the floor, ball movement and then shot selection. He does not run plays, he wants his scorers making reads and getting the ball in the lane or to open shooters.

 

[djcon57]

Despite what Millhouse said, pushing the ball is a system. You are pushing the ball to get points before the defense is set. Watch the Pacers in the NBA now.

Some of you guys think like if you don't run Pete Carill's Princeton offense with backdoor cuts it's not a "system"

Here's a rundown of Indiana's offense system just as an example.

Indiana pushes the pace. Per NBA.com, they take the most shots in the ‘very early’ and ‘early’ ranges of the shot clock. This varies between 22 seconds and 15 seconds. They push for quick hitters out of ‘wide’ ball screens such as below.

Rick Plays the Hits: The Concepts Fueling the Indiana Pacers' Leading Offense | Swish Theory

After two years of missing the playoffs, Rick Carlisle slightly pushed the pace for Indiana’s timeline by signing Bruce Brown after excellent playoff displays with the Denver Nuggets. Some were slightly perplexed by this move, given they still had young players who needed theoretical room to...

theswishtheory.com

Purely speculation on my part that this is what Red wants, but he was frantic about pace early in the season then quit altogether. Blame Judah, Blame Lack of Depth, etc etc.

 

[Bayside44]

Autry is a defense first coach. Aggressive man D and being physical. He learned a hard lesson with having too much unproven youth at the 4 and 5 this year. We were way too soft physically too but that will change.

The offense is secondary to him but is all about transition, fast pace, spacing the floor, ball movement and then shot selection. He does not run plays, he wants his scorers making reads and getting the ball in the lane or to open shooters.

Yeah I don't get some of the observations - for instance this seems to be the first time in a long while where we have multiple ball handlers on the court at most times, and that'll pick up with Westry next year.

People fell in love with the Q at PG idea because he'd get checked by a forward he could take advantage of while defenders still had to watch JM and JJ. We haven't had a 3 do that in a long while.

 

[swish7]

Until I see a system, I'm gonna assume he doesn't have one

It honestly is this simple.

 

[IthacaMatt]

What’s Seth Greenberg’s career record?

He had a winning record at every school where he coached. 90 games over .500 for his career. Four conference championships in 22 years. Three NCAAA tourneys.

= = = = = = = =

Seth Greenberg​

Born: April 18, 1956

Alma Mater: Fairleigh Dickinson (1978)

As Player: 93 G, 2.2 PPG, FDU (Full Record)

Career Record (major schools): 22 Years, 383-293, .567 W-L%

Schools: Long Beach State (105-70), South Florida (108-100) and Virginia Tech (170-123)

Conference Champion: 2 Times (Reg. Seas.), 2 Times (Tourn.)

NCAA Tournament: 3 Years (1-3), 0 Final Fours, 0 Championships

 

[Cusefan0307]

I thought we ran some real good sets off the ball late in the year. The off ball movement really improved and so did the offense. We were top 25 in the country post January. Put Freeman In Taylor’s position and he scores 12-15 with what we were running.

The problem night is NC State did not respect anyone’s shooting when Bell was out of the game. They weren’t within 5 feet of Mintz or Copeland on the perimeter. I am not sure what sets we could have run to make some of our guys better shooters. They were wide open for a reason.

 

[orangezen]

I would love for us to find a lightening quick pg with the ball on a string. I don't care how small he is.

I would love another Billy Edelin

 

[CardiacCuse]

Autry is a defense first coach. Aggressive man D and being physical. He learned a hard lesson with having too much unproven youth at the 4 and 5 this year. We were way too soft physically too but that will change.

The offense is secondary to him but is all about transition, fast pace, spacing the floor, ball movement and then shot selection. He does not run plays, he wants his scorers making reads and getting the ball in the lane or to open shooters.

need bball IQ...need players that can make good decisions and improvise on the fly...need well-rounded players that defenses cant pigeon hole

this team lacked those traits big time.

you cant want something until you are blue in the face...or whatever euphemism you wanna use...

wanting something won't make it happen

what's still unclear is how much of this season;s failure to implement cohesive play was due to player deficiencies or how much was due to lacking areas in coaching.

even if it was due to players being simply unable to implement a great system, its still a bad omen that the coach picked those players.

whatever red wants to do now shoud be crystallized in his mind, by this point

year 2 will tell everything, imo

 

[IthacaMatt]

That's been one of the fogs about this season, exactly what system is Red trying to run?

The offense is anemic.

The defense is porous.

The culture seems wild & undisciplined.

A lot of this is because the 'greatest class ever' isn't very good, but still, I didn't see a system that helped the players in any way.

To be fair, he changed the entire defense, and it took him a month or two how to teach these guys how to play passable man to man.

The offense was pretty bad, players were getting hurt, and there were personality problems within the team.

Against that backdrop, the offense improved after the New Year, but the defense wore down as we lost inside players.

Things we know to be true about "Red's Style" - we played much faster on offense, we tried to run more and threw more half-court outlet passes.

Even though our defense was horribly inconsistent, we defended the three better, and gave up fewer of them, than the last few Boeheim teams.

He played a lot of guys out of position, but roster construction and injuries brought some of that about.

The team did seem to get better after the New Year, and you have to admit, at least 3 or 4 players significantly improved under this coaching staff.

Still a lot of holes. Still some bad attitudes that need purging. Still need another 3 or 4 guys who are contributors. Seems like our incoming frosh are very good, at traditional SU levels, so that is a clear positive.

Red needs to have a really good portal, and if he wants to move on an assistant or two in favor of a fireball recruiter, and maybe a seasoned X-and-O coach, I would not be opposed. It's his career now. Be bold, or go home.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I would love another Billy Edelin

That's kind of what we're hoping for from Copeland, if he can just calm down a bit.

 

[baggerbob]

I would love another Billy Edelin

Billy didn't get credit for a lot of assists during the championship run.
But what he was good at was recognizing when an SU player had a mismatch and getting them the ball, so they could make a play.
He also was good at taking his man off the dribble. He overpowered a lot of guards.

 

[Red2003]

Yeah I don't get some of the observations - for instance this seems to be the first time in a long while where we have multiple ball handlers on the court at most times, and that'll pick up with Westry next year.

People fell in love with the Q at PG idea because he'd get checked by a forward he could take advantage of while defenders still had to watch JM and JJ. We haven't had a 3 do that in a long while.

People lose their minds when they don’t see set plays and X’s and O’s on a clipboard. Autry had like 10 million assists at Syracuse and it’s not because they were running X’s and O’s. It’s year one. Let’s see year two at full strength.

 

[Red2003]

need bball IQ...need players that can make good decisions and improvise on the fly...need well-rounded players that defenses cant pigeon hole

this team lacked those traits big time.

you cant want something until you are blue in the face...or whatever euphemism you wanna use...

wanting something won't make it happen

what's still unclear is how much of this season;s failure to implement cohesive play was due to player deficiencies or how much was due to lacking areas in coaching.

even if it was due to players being simply unable to implement a great system, its still a bad omen that the coach picked those players.

whatever red wants to do now shoud be crystallized in his mind, by this point

year 2 will tell everything, imo

Fully agree. I think he learned a hard lesson with guys that have the injury bug and that there needs to be a balance of youth and experience.

 

[two3zone]

Gillon was such a great guard, just was too small to play zone as effectively as a 6'6" guy (he was still a good defender). The guy knew his job and executed: protect the ball, make good passes, hit open threes. Since 09-10 (100 poss cutoff), there have 14 player seasons with more than 1000 minutes played, more than 100 assists and a PER greater than 15 (average player). Gillon ranks 3rd in assist %, 4th in total assists (3 behind Ennis), 3rd in FT%, 1st in 3%, 13th in 2PA FGA, 11th in TOs, 14th in FGA.

I'd take that guy every year.

One of the most underrated players the past 20 years here. If he started from when everyone knew he should've started except for one person we would've made the tourney and would've won a couple games.

 

[CardiacCuse]

I thought we ran some real good sets off the ball late in the year. The off ball movement really improved and so did the offense. We were top 25 in the country post January. Put Freeman In Taylor’s position and he scores 12-15 with what we were running.

The problem night is NC State did not respect anyone’s shooting when Bell was out of the game. They weren’t within 5 feet of Mintz or Copeland on the perimeter. I am not sure what sets we could have run to make some of our guys better shooters. They were wide open for a reason.

yeah but then the last 2 games they fell off a cliff. very odd.

i guess that clemson loss was the backbreaker.

i really thought they kinda "got it"...but the defense down the stretch and the nc state game as a whole dashed that for me.

if red wants a system where players make reads and play unpredictably without plays...he may need to have a lot of talks this offseason...you need smart, well rounded athletes to run such a system.


additionally, will need a roster that can score on all 3 levels...in every way

really hard being unpredictable when there is a very limited set of ways a team can score.

cant score inside, cant shoot 3s, ...what can you do? so easy to defend!

this roster was waaaaay too easy to shut down with the right defensive plan.

whatever system you have has to match the skillsets of your players...and obviously need a roster that gives the coach some flexibilty to go to plan B, C, etc

 

[Millhouse]

Despite what Millhouse said, pushing the ball is a system. You are pushing the ball to get points before the defense is set. Watch the Pacers in the NBA now.

Some of you guys think like if you don't run Pete Carill's Princeton offense with backdoor cuts it's not a "system"

They stand around and take turns attacking and never kick the ball out. Teams like uconn or even Indiana state play a different sport.

 

[Millhouse]

Here's a rundown of Indiana's offense system just as an example.

Indiana pushes the pace. Per NBA.com, they take the most shots in the ‘very early’ and ‘early’ ranges of the shot clock. This varies between 22 seconds and 15 seconds. They push for quick hitters out of ‘wide’ ball screens such as below.

Rick Plays the Hits: The Concepts Fueling the Indiana Pacers' Leading Offense | Swish Theory

After two years of missing the playoffs, Rick Carlisle slightly pushed the pace for Indiana’s timeline by signing Bruce Brown after excellent playoff displays with the Denver Nuggets. Some were slightly perplexed by this move, given they still had young players who needed theoretical room to...

theswishtheory.com

Purely speculation on my part that this is what Red wants, but he was frantic about pace early in the season then quit altogether. Blame Judah, Blame Lack of Depth, etc etc.

I'm anxious for next year. It's quite possible that mintz was just that bad. A lot of people I respect liked but I'll never understand why, I was over it game number one.

 

[djcon57]

They stand around and take turns attacking and never kicking the ball out. Teams like uconn or even Indiana state play a different sport.

You stated “Running so you didn't have to play in the half court isn't a system”

I never said this years team ran this system but running and pushing so teams can’t setup their D is absolutely a “system”

 

[Millhouse]

People lose their minds when they don’t see set plays and X’s and O’s on a clipboard. Autry had like 10 million assists at Syracuse and it’s not because they were running X’s and O’s. It’s year one. Let’s see year two at full strength.

I love motion offenses.

 

[Millhouse]

You stated “Running so you didn't have to play in the half court isn't a system”

I never said this years team ran this system but running and pushing so teams can’t setup their D is absolutely a “system”

I disagree. You have to have something else

 

[CuseFaninVT]

That simply cannot be true.
If Red wanted to push the ball in transition, we would have.
Do people think we're walking the ball up bc Judah prefers that?

Yes. Absolutely

 

[djcon57]

I disagree. You have to have something else

It’s not really a disagree or agree statement. It’s a fact. You can not LIKE the system, but that’s different than saying it’s not a system