Requiem for the Big East

[Stevenson]

1. The Georgetown teams of the 80s were "coached up" to be Thugs. If you lived thru it you know it.
2. Most tops schools took kids who had very questionable academic credentials because they could play, including Syracuse.
3. Opposing fans reactions to GTown were racist in their chants, signs, etc. Pure deplorable behavior. No denying it.
4. "Thug" is now code for the n-word. Bees use of" Thug" was true to the real meaning of the word, not the current definition. Completely understandable that one generation younger can read something into the word that wasn't intended.
5. Georgetown still sucks.

 

[sufandu]

I am normally one of those guys that just realizes change is part of life and move on, accept it. But that being said, that document was excellent and did make me quite nostalgic. I'm 37 so I grew up in the 80s with Pearl and the Big East and to relive that was just fantastic.

I've never attended the BET but the behind the scenes did a great job demonstrating the atmosphere and just how special it was. I admit I have almost blocked cuseguy several times because I got tired of reading 500 posts about it (even though I generally enjoy most of his other observations.) But I now better understand where he is coming from.

That being said, I am disappointed to lose the rivalries with Georgetown and UConn in particular. But change is part of life. I can't imagine my life without Syracuse basketball and football so I've moved on and will enjoy the ACC.

Change is a part of life, but it's a little frustrating for me to see teams establish a rivalry over the course of decades and be able to maintain it while we've had to restart ours with no guarantee it'll ever be as good as the previous rivalries. I'll always miss the old Big East.

 

[HakAttack]

1. The Georgetown teams of the 80s were "coached up" to be Thugs. If you lived thru it you know it.
2. Most tops schools took kids who had very questionable academic credentials because they could play, including Syracuse.
3. Opposing fans reactions to GTown were racist in their chants, signs, etc. Pure deplorable behavior. No denying it.
4. "Thug" is now code for the n-word. Bees use of" Thug" was true to the real meaning of the word, not the current definition. Completely understandable that one generation younger can read something into the word that wasn't intended.
5. Georgetown still sucks.

Most level-headed response I've seen in this thread. Well done.

 

[Marsh01]

I've said this before but Pearl had limited shooting range - couldn't dunk - had an assist to turnover ratio that wasn't the best ... and with all that - was the most exciting player in the history of the Big East.

He most definitely was not the greatest shooter. He attacked the rim like a lion running down a gazelle however and was a fantastic finisher.

 

[cuseguy]

Good call. I stand by my "necessary evil" position. For me, the BE will always be better than the ACC.

Necessary Evil.

I love it.

 

[Noexcuse]

He most definitely was not the greatest shooter. He attacked the rim like a lion running down a gazelle however and was a fantastic finisher.

He had amazing body control and could contort his way to the basket and avoid getting blocked by taller players better than anybody I can remember. I still can't believe that Walter Berry blocked that last shot in the 1986 Big East Championship game. Pure luck on his part. I also remember another play where Pearl was running down an errant pass that was going out of bounds. A player on the other team was on his left hip and Pearl got to the ball with his right hand just before it went out, pulled it back in bounds, somehow spun around backwards avoiding the other player, drove to the rim and made the layup.

 

[cuseguy]

I am normally one of those guys that just realizes change is part of life and move on, accept it. But that being said, that document was excellent and did make me quite nostalgic. I'm 37 so I grew up in the 80s with Pearl and the Big East and to relive that was just fantastic. I've never attended the BET but the behind the scenes did a great job demonstrating the atmosphere and just how special it was. I admit I have almost blocked cuseguy several times because I got tired of reading 500 posts about it (even though I generally enjoy most of his other observations.) But I now better understand where he is coming from. That being said, I am disappointed to lose the rivalries with Georgetown and UConn in particular. But change is part of life. I can't imagine my life without Syracuse basketball and football so I've moved on and will enjoy the ACC.

Thank you.

I promise to be a kinder, gentler Cuseguy in the future. But hopefully that brought to light what I've been trying to say.

 

[Madbiker]

They should have made this in 2 parts. The rise from late 70's to 1991 ... that's what they focused on for 90% of the show last night and it was terrific. Part 2 should be the fall from 1991-2013. Then they could do justice to the reasons for the break up and how dysfunctional the conference became. Instead it was an extremely over simplified view and mostly from the view point of the Catholic basketball schools painting the football schools as unreasonable and greedy...which is BS.

 

[Pat Kelly]

Missed it, did they mention the "Ewing can't read" chant?

 

[SWC75]

the game there two years earlier had the racial issues going on the players said when discussing the supposed "inaccuracies" of the film. I'm the guy with the '59 NC football signed by the team and ED and my coach is from that era and confirmed as much.

I have now reviewed all the Post Standard and Herald Journal articles on the 1955, 1957 and 1958 games that were played between Syracuse and West Virginia, all of which were played in Morgantown. There is no reference to any dispute of any kind between the teams. Of course it could have gone unreported but the problems between SU and Texas in 1/1/60 Cotton Bowl were certainly well covered. There's nothing in comments made by any plays or coaches after those West Virginia games that shows any lack of respect between the teams. I also found nothing in Arnie Burdick's Billy Reddy's columns in the Monday paper to suggest that anything untoward had taken place.

The rivalry between Jim Brown and Sam Huff began in that game:
http://www.timeswv.com/wvu_sports/x...UMN-Orange-up-there-with-biggest-rivals/print
and Huff is supposed to have said to Brown "you stink". Then after a long TD run, Brown is supposed to have said "How do I smell from here". But Brown didn't score in that game so it didn't happen in Morgantown. (I've heard Brown deny the story altogether).

What is depicted in "The Express" is Ben Schwartzwalder taking his black player out of the game before SU scored so he could insert white players to score from close in "to avoid a riot". Brown was our only black ball carrier in 1955. He almost scored on a 71 yard kickoff return. He did score on a 19 yard run that was called back. He also ran to within inches of the goal line on a sweep and then quarterback Ferd Kuczala snuck over for the score. There's nothing unusual about that strategy. I've read a couple of books about Jim brown, including his autobiography and there's nothing about him being pulled so a white guys could score. There certainly would have been. There's also nothing in Ken Rappoport's "The Syracuse Football Story" or Michael Mullins' "Syracuse University Football: A Centennial Celebration" aobut any racial problems at West Virginia or Ben pulling black players sho they couldn't score.

We didn't score at all in 1957. Also, I don't know that we had any black ball carriers that year. Brown was in Cleveland and Art Baker wouldn't show up until 1958, (and Ernie Davis in 1959). I'm not even sure we had any black players that year. John Brown, the lineman also would have been on the freshman team that season.

Baker and Brown were on the 1958 team but reading the accounts of the game I didn't see any instance where Baker made a run near the goal line and then was removed so a white player could score. Both our touchdowns were on pass player to Dave Baker, (who was white and not related to Art).

And, again the Wikipedia article and other sources indicate that the original script for the movie had Ben holding back his black players in a game at North Carolina that never even took place. Whatever incident(s) your coach or the guys who signed the ball were referring to, that wasn't the basis for what was depicted in the film. If would be interested to know the specifics of what they talked about, if you know them. It would be part of Syracuse's football history, regardless of whether it had anything to do with the film.

 

[Noexcuse]

They should have made this in 2 parts. The rise from late 70's to 1991 ... that's what they focused on for 90% of the show last night and it was terrific. Part 2 should be the fall from 1991-2013. Then they could do justice to the reasons for the break up and how dysfunctional the conference became. Instead it was an extremely over simplified view and mostly from the view point of the Catholic basketball schools painting the football schools as unreasonable and greedy...which is BS.

I think that is true to an extent. I also think ESPN tried to exonerate itself from any blame by pointing out that the League turned down their $1.4 Billion offer for televising rights, insinuating that it was the basketball onlies who were against it causing the football schools to bolt.

 

[MSOrange]

Thank you.

I promise to be a kinder, gentler Cuseguy in the future. But hopefully that brought to light what I've been trying to say.

It certainly did. The Big East Tournament scenes immediately left an impression on me with the general environment and I could almost feel the excitement and atmosphere just watching it, to be honest.

 

[SWC75]

He had amazing body control and could contort his way to the basket and avoid getting blocked by taller players better than anybody I can remember. I still can't believe that Walter Berry blocked that last shot in the 1986 Big East Championship game. Pure luck on his part. I also remember another play where Pearl was running down an errant pass that was going out of bounds. A player on the other team was on his left hip and Pearl got to the ball with his right hand just before it went out, pulled it back in bounds, somehow spun around backwards avoiding the other player, drove to the rim and made the layup.

I still dream of him being in the 86-87 team, demanding the ball after Smart's shot, giving it to the ref and ordering someone to inbound to him and then going coast to coast for the national championship. He absolutely could have done it.

 

[Noexcuse]

I have now reviewed all the Post Standard and Herald Journal articles on the 1955, 1957 and 1958 games that were played between Syracuse and West Virginia, all of which were played in Morgantown. There is no reference to any dispute of any kind between the teams. Of course it could have gone unreported but the problems between SU and Texas in 1/1/60 Cotton Bowl were certainly well covered. There's nothing in comments made by any plays or coaches after those West Virginia games that shows any lack of respect between the teams. I also found nothing in Arnie Burdick's Billy Reddy's columns in the Monday paper to suggest that anything untoward had taken place.

The rivalry between Jim Brown and Sam Huff began in that game:
http://www.timeswv.com/wvu_sports/x...UMN-Orange-up-there-with-biggest-rivals/print
and Huff is supposed to have said to Brown "you stink". Then after a long TD run, Brown is supposed to have said "How do I smell from here". But Brown didn't score in that game so it didn't happen in Morgantown. (I've heard Brown deny the story altogether).

What is depicted in "The Express" is Ben Schwartzwalder taking his black player out of the game before SU scored so he could insert white players to score from close in "to avoid a riot". Brown was our only black ball carrier in 1955. He almost scored on a 71 yard kickoff return. He did score on a 19 yard run that was called back. He also ran to within inches of the goal line on a sweep and then quarterback Ferd Kuczala snuck over for the score. There's nothing unusual about that strategy. I've read a couple of books about Jim brown, including his autobiography and there's nothing about him being pulled so a white guys could score. There certainly would have been. There's also nothing in Ken Rappoport's "The Syracuse Football Story" or Michael Mullins' "Syracuse University Football: A Centennial Celebration" aobut any racial problems at West Virginia or Ben pulling black players sho they couldn't score.

We didn't score at all in 1957. Also, I don't know that we had any black ball carriers that year. Brown was in Cleveland and Art Baker wouldn't show up until 1958, (and Ernie Davis in 1959). I'm not even sure we had any black players that year. John Brown, the lineman also would have been on the freshman team that season.

Baker and Brown were on the 1958 team but reading the accounts of the game I didn't see any instance where Baker made a run near the goal line and then was removed so a white player could score. Both our touchdowns were on pass player to Dave Baker, (who was white and not related to Art).

And, again the Wikipedia article and other sources indicate that the original script for the movie had Ben holding back his black players in a game at North Carolina that never even took place. Whatever incident(s) your coach or the guys who signed the ball were referring to, that wasn't the basis for what was depicted in the film. If would be interested to know the specifics of what they talked about, if you know them. It would be part of Syracuse's football history, regardless of whether it had anything to do with the film.

Tell you the truth, the only incident I was aware of goes back earlier, maybe to the late 30's and it was against Maryland and involved Wilmeth Sidat-Singh where he was held out of a game.

 

[SWC75]

Change is a part of life, but it's a little frustrating for me to see teams establish a rivalry over the course of decades and be able to maintain it while we've had to restart ours with no guarantee it'll ever be as good as the previous rivalries. I'll always miss the old Big East.

The Big East was 'us'. I think the ACC will always be 'them'.

 

[HurleyForHeisman]

They should have made this in 2 parts. The rise from late 70's to 1991 ... that's what they focused on for 90% of the show last night and it was terrific. Part 2 should be the fall from 1991-2013. Then they could do justice to the reasons for the break up and how dysfunctional the conference became. Instead it was an extremely over simplified view and mostly from the view point of the Catholic basketball schools painting the football schools as unreasonable and greedy...which is BS.

Not to pick on you, but I disagree with the narrative that the Big East started a decline with the addition of the football schools in the 90s. If anything, the '90s were better for the league. First, the basketball side continued to thrive with the rise of UConn to compete with SU and Georgetown. And, contrary to the rude insult of West Virginia in the program, adding the Mountaineers to the Big East for basketball made total sense, as they were a long-time eastern basketball program who were members of the ECAC and then the Eastern 8.

Second, I must be the only one who loved the original Big East football conference. Some of the best moments in SU football history occurred during the 90s in the Big East, while Miami, West Virginia, BC and Virginia Tech all fielded strong teams. It's too bad the basketball-centric members of the league couldn't recognize the value that was added to the Big East brand by having a strong football conference.

 

[TDTOrange]

I think that is true to an extent. I also think ESPN tried to exonerate itself from any blame by pointing out that the League turned down their $1.4 Billion offer for televising rights, insinuating that it was the basketball onlies who were against it causing the football schools to bolt.

I thought it covered the breakdown of it as well as it needed to. In the end, the same reason they came together and then fell apart was the same reason, money. There were too many divergent needs among the constituencies for it to stay together long term.

Keeping with the originals, BC & SU had football interests to protect and would have had to act outside of the Big East at some point had nothing been done. Adding Pitt helped for a period, but was also a harbinger of what the future would hold. One move after another led the league to outgrowing its original purpose, until it became the unstable mess of the last few years. I don't think anything could have kept it together long-term, to keep it together as long as they did is kind of a miracle (to me). The football side needed to protect football. The basketball side had no need for football, and really had no reason to try to help it out.

The new Big East is probably as close to the original vision as it could be now. But it won't be nearly as successful as that era has passed. Syracuse, Pitt & BC are in a home now that is what they've needed all along, a conference for all sports.

 

[Toga]

Requiem showed part of the reason why Syracuse has/is a brand. You don't think having a recognizable brand got us into the ACC? Requiem by itself only added to the brand. Having a brand is a function of excellence over time and a degree of uniqueness and/or personalities. SU has brand. For example, UConn doesn't have it and Rutgers can't even spell it.

 

[Sudano]

"ultimately Capitalism killed the Big East" Interesting.

Odd statement after all the time it spent bragging about its growth and increasing revenues like they are separate animals. Capitalism is what kept the league going for 30 years. Football killed the Big East. No mention that if SU didn't leave the Big East they'd be playing in the Patriot League against Colgate and BU. Its not about greed or weak minded presidents its about their obligation to their schools, alumni, fans, and board. Just odd to blame capitalism when the whole issue of capitalism is why Syracuse is better off in the long run in the ACC. This just in the horse cart is dead due to capitalism.
Its like saying oxygen kills us all by breaking down cells without realizing we need it to breath.

 

[omniorange]

Not to pick on you, but I disagree with the narrative that the Big East started a decline with the addition of the football schools in the 90s. If anything, the '90s were better for the league. First, the basketball side continued to thrive with the rise of UConn to compete with SU and Georgetown. And, contrary to the rude insult of West Virginia in the program, adding the Mountaineers to the Big East for basketball made total sense, as they were a long-time eastern basketball program who were members of the ECAC and then the Eastern 8.

Actually, the basketball side did not continue to thrive. After getting in 7 of 9 teams in 1991, the league slid throughout the rest of the decade. True, UConn became a power but at various points in the decade, Syracuse (on probation), Georgetown, St. John's and Nova while decent now and then, were not great.

From 1982 thru 1989 the Big East had 2 NCs, 8 Final Four teams, and 15 Elite 8 appearances.

From 1992 thru 1999 the Big East had 1 NC, 2 Final Four teams, and 8 Elite 8 appearances.

I do agree that the comment about WVU was out of line and truly had no place in the documentary. It was out of place considering the video's emphasis on combating one stereotype but they decide to insert another.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[omniorange]

Odd statement after all the time it spent bragging about its growth and increasing revenues like they are separate animals. Capitalism is what kept the league going for 30 years. Football killed the Big East. No mention that if SU didn't leave the Big East they'd be playing in the Patriot League against Colgate and BU. Its not about greed or weak minded presidents its about their obligation to their schools, alumni, fans, and board. Just odd to blame capitalism when the whole issue of capitalism is why Syracuse is better off in the long run in the ACC. This just in the horse cart is dead due to capitalism.
Its like saying oxygen kills us all by breaking down cells without realizing we need it to breath.

They were connecting points. Capitalism built the Big East but ultimately it was its downfall as well.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Cuseregular]

I have now reviewed all the Post Standard and Herald Journal articles on the 1955, 1957 and 1958 games that were played between Syracuse and West Virginia, all of which were played in Morgantown. There is no reference to any dispute of any kind between the teams. Of course it could have gone unreported but the problems between SU and Texas in 1/1/60 Cotton Bowl were certainly well covered. There's nothing in comments made by any plays or coaches after those West Virginia games that shows any lack of respect between the teams. I also found nothing in Arnie Burdick's Billy Reddy's columns in the Monday paper to suggest that anything untoward had taken place.

The rivalry between Jim Brown and Sam Huff began in that game:
http://www.timeswv.com/wvu_sports/x...UMN-Orange-up-there-with-biggest-rivals/print
and Huff is supposed to have said to Brown "you stink". Then after a long TD run, Brown is supposed to have said "How do I smell from here". But Brown didn't score in that game so it didn't happen in Morgantown. (I've heard Brown deny the story altogether).

What is depicted in "The Express" is Ben Schwartzwalder taking his black player out of the game before SU scored so he could insert white players to score from close in "to avoid a riot". Brown was our only black ball carrier in 1955. He almost scored on a 71 yard kickoff return. He did score on a 19 yard run that was called back. He also ran to within inches of the goal line on a sweep and then quarterback Ferd Kuczala snuck over for the score. There's nothing unusual about that strategy. I've read a couple of books about Jim brown, including his autobiography and there's nothing about him being pulled so a white guys could score. There certainly would have been. There's also nothing in Ken Rappoport's "The Syracuse Football Story" or Michael Mullins' "Syracuse University Football: A Centennial Celebration" aobut any racial problems at West Virginia or Ben pulling black players sho they couldn't score.

We didn't score at all in 1957. Also, I don't know that we had any black ball carriers that year. Brown was in Cleveland and Art Baker wouldn't show up until 1958, (and Ernie Davis in 1959). I'm not even sure we had any black players that year. John Brown, the lineman also would have been on the freshman team that season.

Baker and Brown were on the 1958 team but reading the accounts of the game I didn't see any instance where Baker made a run near the goal line and then was removed so a white player could score. Both our touchdowns were on pass player to Dave Baker, (who was white and not related to Art).

And, again the Wikipedia article and other sources indicate that the original script for the movie had Ben holding back his black players in a game at North Carolina that never even took place. Whatever incident(s) your coach or the guys who signed the ball were referring to, that wasn't the basis for what was depicted in the film. If would be interested to know the specifics of what they talked about, if you know them. It would be part of Syracuse's football history, regardless of whether it had anything to do with the film.

yep I'm sure that's all they said just "you stink" to the black guys(s). The Tex bowl game was one of just a few back then with great fanfare with the highly ranked teams so it made sense the racial part was reported. Back wood WV on the other hand in the mid 50's it was likely just part a routine and regular part of the culture not reported on as it was the norm. When I refer to the movie that's all I'm referring to racial aspect. I remember with 100% clarity the guys of that era saying that the racial component and only the racial component occurred in years earlier than 1959 in their discussion of the movie. No more no less.

 

[Sudano]

They were connecting points. Capitalism built the Big East but ultimately it was its downfall as well.

Cheers,
Neil

Capitalism wasn't the downfall of the Big East. The fact it had no integrated football solution. It failed in meeting the needs of its members.

 

[Millhouse]

Capitalism wasn't the downfall of the Big East. The fact it had no integrated football solution. It failed in meeting the needs of its members.

capitalism failed because some people stubbornly like college football too

if not letting our football program die means that goofballs like charles pierce use us as a stupid platform to blather, so be it

 

[Sudano]

capitalism failed because some people stubbornly like college football too

if not letting our football program die means that goofballs like charles pierce use us as a stupid platform to blather, so be it

Capitalism kills all poor businesses. That's a good thing. Its called progress. Capitalism killed the horse and buggy, capitalism killed the rotary dialed phone, capitalism killed the log cabin. Despite the fact oxygen kills all humans its still a very good thing.