Requiem for the Big East

[MGP]

Lots of different thoughts on this topic. First off , Hak, you haven't a frigging clue if you didn't live it. I mean, not a clue. This isn't an issue that you can "just imagine what it was like".

That's not to say in retrospect some of the signs nod remarks back in the day didn't make me feel uncomfortable...but the truth is, these remarks are all in reaction to concepts that big john embraced and promulgated.

Georgetown had t shirts that said Hoya paranoia. John conveniently instituted. "My freshmen don't talk to the media" rule Patricks freshman year...knowing that it would add to speculation that Patrick wasn't smart. Michael graham...really? The first prominent school to embrace the color black in its uniform.

The passive aggressive manner that John Thompson used race is undeniable and indisputable.

Perfectly stated Jake. TY

 

[Marsh01]

You said it. You were too young to know . Bees is spot on

absolutely. Guy should be in prison

 

[TheCusian]

Spot on. Intimidation, bullying, embracing dirty play - much different. Again, if you didn't live through it, you won't get it. The sympathertic picture painted by the documentary while in some ways true, doesn't tell the whole story. Thompson's "protecting" of his players in many ways perpetuated the situation...

I keep reading this "if you lived though it" - honest question: Doesn't that mean that you have a personal stake in seeing it as them bullying on your team and your coach and by proxy you? Does it impede the way you see them? Is it possible to see it clearly "if you lived thought it"?

To be clear - I did live through it as a kid and hated them like the rest of the community. Still do. I guess time has allowed me to see better what they meant to people outside of my community. Not condoning the worst of the behavior. But shielding the players from the media and racist signs seems like exactly what I'd want my coach to do in that particular situation. I'd also want my coach to bench any player who chokes another player on the court.

 

[Cuseregular]

What earlier game? I've been doing a series of posts on the seasons leading up to the 1959 national title and have never heard of Ben holding back black players from scoring to prevent a riot in West Virginia. The original script had the game at North Carolina. But when they realized we didn't play North Carolina until 1995, they changed it to West Virginia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Express

the game there two years earlier had the racial issues going on the players said when discussing the supposed "inaccuracies" of the film. I'm the guy with the '59 NC football signed by the team and ED and my coach is from that era and confirmed as much.

 

[MCC]

Brent Axe ‏@BrentAxeMedia 1m
Giancarlo Esposito is narrating "Requiem for the Big East." Was on "Breaking Bad" and is currently Major Tom Neville on NBC's "Revolution"

I can just imagine Gus saying, "You can never... trust... a Hoya."

 

[Millhouse]

"ultimately Capitalism killed the Big East" Interesting.

I went to bed early and didn't see the end of this (went to sleep) and I'm guessing the second hour was a lot of Charles Pierce using the big east to make a lot of silly statements about america as a whole. You could see it coming a mile away with some of the same strange asides from the first hour. (like the line about the government making people poor in the 80s which made them like georgetown. ooook)

 

[Millhouse]

Pearl stated in an interview one time during the 90's (after his bout with the brain tumor) that he essentially lost his love of the game in the pros. Once he saw it was all a business, he no longer had fun playing. He went on to add that his biggest mistake was leaving Syracuse early. They were the best days of his life. If he could have done it differently he would have finished his senior year.

that's self serving. he lost his love for the game because he was fat and not good enough.

 

[TOL22]

SWC, thanks for the link. I'll probably watch my dvr of it several times before I get my DVD, but it's a keeper anyway

This doc was everything I expected and so much more

 

[sabach]

I grew up in the 80's and hated Georgetown with a passion. They were thugs and it had nothing to do with race. My heroes growing up were mostly black men, (Tony Dorsett, Dr. J., Pearl Washington). For the record, I also worshipped Don Mattingly. One of the great things in sports is that it transcends race in many ways. I never saw my heroes as being black, they were just the best players on my favorite teams. Likewise, I never saw my enemies as being black, they were just the best players on my rivals teams. I hate Georgetown and always will and it wasn't because they were black. For crying out loud, most of the SU players were and are black. And yes, I laughed at the signs saying "Ewing can't spell CBS" etc. but not because Ewing was black. The problem is JT2 made Georgetown into a racial team. Our hatred of them had nothing to do with that.

 

[smmCUSE]

I'm a total newbie here, but from what I gather, to assert the term "Thug" as a term with racist implications, in this context is completely unfair. Surely there may be a social context in some situations, however, the word thug is defined as a violent person, criminal... and it transcends race.

That said, while they weren't thugs in the sense that they committed violent crimes, I think it is very fair to equate "thuggery" with their style of play, i.e. choking, fighting, on the court violence, etc.

 

[Millhouse]

I'm a total newbie here, but from what I gather, to assert the term "Thug" as a term with racist implications, in this context is completely unfair. Surely there may be a social context in some situations, however, the word thug is defined as a violent person, criminal... and it transcends race.

That said, while they weren't thugs in the sense that they committed violent crimes, I think it is very fair to equate "thuggery" with their style of play, i.e. choking, fighting, on the court violence, etc.

i prefer to call thompson and his players a bunch of aholes.

 

[MGP]

I keep reading this "if you lived though it" - honest question: Doesn't that mean that you have a personal stake in seeing it as them bullying on your team and your coach and by proxy you? Does it impede the way you see them? Is it possible to see it clearly "if you lived thought it"?

To be clear - I did live through it as a kid and hated them like the rest of the community. Still do. I guess time has allowed me to see better what they meant to people outside of my community. Not condoning the worst of the behavior. But shielding the players from the media and racist signs seems like exactly what I'd want my coach to do in that particular situation. I'd also want my coach to bench any player who chokes another player on the court.

Agreed. I was a kid too, and only saw it one way. Older now, I can look at it from both sides and put it into perspective better. Even so, no one can deny that John's methods and manipulations brought alot of this on, embraced it, and then twisted it. I mean why couldn't Reggie Williams even put two sentences together after the '85 championship game - because he was stupid? No. John never let the kids speak to the media. The signs and the taunts were unfair, disgusting, and frankly embarassing, but in many ways John brought it on himself (some may argue purposly) so he could turn it back on everyone else.

 

[PeteCalvin]

that's self serving. he lost his love for the game because he was fat and not good enough.

Actually, I had read in an article around the time of Pearl's brain surgery that the tumor he had contributed to his weight gain over those years. Not a doctor, so I can't say for sure, but it sounds plausible.

 

[longislandcuse]

As a 30 year old who knew of those days but was too young to really grasp the glory days of the Big East, this was an amazing lesson in the grassroots of our basketball team. Where we came from and who we are. It was awesome and while i'm glad we're in the ACC and think we will have some crazy memories to look back on in 20 years as we grow in this league, I can't imagine it will be anything as intense as what I just witnessed, society won't allow it.

 

[RF2044]

As a 30 year old who knew of those days but was too young to really grasp the glory days of the Big East, this was an amazing lesson in the grassroots of our basketball team. Where we came from and who we are. It was awesome and while i'm glad we're in the ACC and think we will have some crazy memories to look back on in 20 years as we grow in this league, I can't imagine it will be anything as intense as what I just witnessed, society won't allow it.

It would be interesting to revisit that "Are you happy we're in the ACC" thread from last week, and to re-interpret some of those posts through this new lens.

 

[samspann1]

It would be interesting to revisit that "Are you happy we're in the ACC" thread from last week, and to re-interpret some of those posts through this new lens.

Good call.

I stand by my "necessary evil" position. For me, the BE will always be better than the ACC.

 

[RF2044]

Good call.

I stand by my "necessary evil" position. For me, the BE will always be better than the ACC.

That's pretty much my take, as well. I'm happy for the long term stability / beneficial $$$ situation. But not happy about certain aspects of the change. But JB was 100% right when he suggested that it wasn't the same Big East. It changed fundamentally in 1992, and then again in 2003 / 2004. The monstrosity with no geographic boundaries was NOT the Big East that many of us grew up loving.

 

[storange]

Actually, I had read in an article around the time of Pearl's brain surgery that the tumor he had contributed to his weight gain over those years. Not a doctor, so I can't say for sure, but it sounds plausible.

I will say this, Pearl was as good as any college guard ever when he had the ball in his hands. That preformance against Georgetown in the famous "Michael Graham" final was nothing short of spell binding !

 

[SoBeCuse]

Loved the little narration vignettes/interviews from Pearl, Pinckney, Mullin, Ewing, etc.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I will say this, Pearl was as good as any college guard ever when he had the ball in his hands. That preformance against Georgetown in the famous "Michael Graham" final was nothing short of spell binding !

I'm only in my early 30s but the Pearl and Shammgod had the best handle I've ever seen.

 

[MGP]

Loved the little narration vignettes/interviews from Pearl, Pinckney, Mullin, Ewing, etc.

& Dom Perno...oh wait

 

[Toga]

I'm only in my early 30s but the Pearl and Shammgod had the best handle I've ever seen.

I've said this before but Pearl had limited shooting range - couldn't dunk - had an assist to turnover ratio that wasn't the best ... and with all that - was the most exciting player in the history of the Big East.

 

[SWC75]

the game there two years earlier had the racial issues going on the players said when discussing the supposed "inaccuracies" of the film. I'm the guy with the '59 NC football signed by the team and ED and my coach is from that era and confirmed as much.

Well I'll get to 1957 next year and will see what it says. But the story in the film was originally supposed to take place in North Carolina so it was fictional.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I've said this before but Pearl had limited shooting range - couldn't dunk - had an assist to turnover ratio that wasn't the best ... and with all that - was the most exciting player in the history of the Big East.

Seems like it. I meant strictly from a handle perspective.

 

[BuffOrange]

Man it was/is sooo easy to hate Ewing, haha. He hasn't changed one bit. Did anyone every write anything along the lines of, maybe those 5 goaltends in a 1pt game cost them a championship? Good for you on sending a message bro.
Pinckney otoh, super likeable. He must be white.

 

[MSOrange]

I am normally one of those guys that just realizes change is part of life and move on, accept it. But that being said, that document was excellent and did make me quite nostalgic. I'm 37 so I grew up in the 80s with Pearl and the Big East and to relive that was just fantastic.

I've never attended the BET but the behind the scenes did a great job demonstrating the atmosphere and just how special it was. I admit I have almost blocked cuseguy several times because I got tired of reading 500 posts about it (even though I generally enjoy most of his other observations.) But I now better understand where he is coming from.

That being said, I am disappointed to lose the rivalries with Georgetown and UConn in particular. But change is part of life. I can't imagine my life without Syracuse basketball and football so I've moved on and will enjoy the ACC.