Requiem for the Big East

[MGP]

There's a lot of revisionist history and controlled ignorance going on here if we don't acknowledge guys like Coleman and Brower in the "thug" department then, and guys who should never have been allowed to play another game. But I'm sure there's a logical distinction between the choke hold by Ewing and the Cornell fracas.

really two different era's. Guys like Coleman & Brower were the product of G-Town's "thug" attitude...

 

[OrangeDW]

If you equate Ewing and Mullin in terms of on-court behavior, based on a few clips from a documentary, you don't know what you are talking about.

Yeah, that was pretty ridiculous. Sometimes people need to realize when to just listen. You don't need to have an opinion on everything.

Disagree. There's an ignore button. Feel free to use it. Sad that through the whole documentary some folks focus on the "Thuggery" of Georgetown.

They played physical tough ball. They recruited primarily black athletes. They were like the Oakland Raiders of the 80's. Clearly, some people were never able to get over that.

But I digress. It was a phenomenal documentary that I loved every second of. The big east died when they brought in Miami for the football $$, IMO. But seeing the footage of the BE glory years of the 80's was truly special.

So know you call out my basketball knowledge because I'm calling out a mod for a comment that quite frankly was stupid and childish? Cool. Clearly Mullin was not nearly the aggressive, "physical" player that Ewing was. Ewing wasn't called the Hoya Destroya for nothing.

The point I was making was that Georgetown's play wasn't that much out of the ordinary for a rough, upstart, physical league. The only difference was that Georgetown was made up of majority black players.

Why did so many people have a problem with Georgetown's Kente cloth shorts in the 90's?

Coincidence? Sure. But when you call black players "thugs," don't try to tell me that there's not some racial message there. Just ask Richard Sherman what he thinks. He'll tell you. And quite frankly, I agree with him.

So was Syracuse, St. Johns, Villanova, etc.

You really should sit this one out. You're getting all worked up for nothing, and you really don't know what you're talking about. Watching a documentary and some youtube clips does not take the place of actually being there.

 

[Bayside44]

Whatever you say sir. I'm a child of the 90's so I clearly don't have the hatred for Georgetown that you and many older posters on here do. But to say Ewing didn't deserve to go to college comes off like sounding very snobbish at the best, borderline prejudiced at the worst. Wonder what you would have said about Mullin. Seems to me I saw him throwing plenty of 'bows in that doc too.

So know you call out my basketball knowledge because I'm calling out a mod for a comment that quite frankly was stupid and childish? Cool. Clearly Mullin was not nearly the aggressive, "physical" player that Ewing was. Ewing wasn't called the Hoya Destroya for nothing.

The point I was making was that Georgetown's play wasn't that much out of the ordinary for a rough, upstart, physical league. The only difference was that Georgetown was made up of majority black players.

Why did so many people have a problem with Georgetown's Kente cloth shorts in the 90's?

Coincidence? Sure. But when you call black players "thugs," don't try to tell me that there's not some racial message there. Just ask Richard Sherman what he thinks. He'll tell you. And quite frankly, I agree with him.

You really have no idea what you're talking about if you didn't live then and watch the games. The whole point about Georgetown in the doc was that they were out of the ordinary. If you paid attention Big John sent them out there - think about it - he gave UNC baskets to prove a stupid point about being intimidating.

 

[HarrisonJBounel]

There's a lot of revisionist history and controlled ignorance going on here if we don't acknowledge guys like Coleman and Brower in the "thug" department then, and guys who should never have been allowed to play another game. But I'm sure there's a logical distinction between the choke hold by Ewing and the Cornell fracas.

Yeah, but it's one thing to have players go over the line from time to time because of emotion. It's quite another to have a coach and a program institutionalize it, embrace it, coach it, encourage it, and market it.

 

[doc05]

So know you call out my basketball knowledge because I'm calling out a mod for a comment that quite frankly was stupid and childish? Cool. Clearly Mullin was not nearly the aggressive, "physical" player that Ewing was. They weren't called the Hoya Destroyas for nothing.

The point I was making was that Georgetown's play wasn't that much out of the ordinary for a rough, upstart, physical league. The only difference was that Georgetown was made up of majority black players.

Why did so many people have a problem with Georgetown's Kente cloth shorts in the 90's?

Co-incidence. Sure. But when you call black players "thugs," don't try to tell me that there's not some racial message there. Just ask Richard Sherman what he thinks. He'll tell you. And quite frankly, I agree with him.

You are spot on. Did people conveniently gloss over what Ewing and company went through at GT? Do they know what Ewing even endured in high school when he came to this country? And yet he shouldn't have been allowed to play college basketball because he was some kind of "thug"? I mean really. If people want to pick and choose, Cuse or any other school had players that weren't exactly choir boys and had their fair share of incidents. We get that there is a hatred for Gtwon - especially on a Cuse board -- but let's be real.

 

[SWC75]

Nothing was better than the Big East in the 80's.

Interesting that everything after the 80's was kind of an afterthought. That w as surely the greatest era of the Big East but it's not like nothing happened after that.

 

[PoppyHart]

really two different era's. Guys like Coleman & Brower were the product of G-Town's "thug" attitude...

The era didn't change until the rules about fighting changed. G'town's "thug" attitude fit in nicely with things like the Kermit Washington punch in the late 70s. The game was simply not controlled back then by the refs and rulemakers, and it became anything goes.

 

[rrlbees]

So know you call out my basketball knowledge because I'm calling out a mod for a comment that quite frankly was stupid and childish? Cool. Clearly Mullin was not nearly the aggressive, "physical" player that Ewing was. Ewing wasn't called the Hoya Destroya for nothing. The point I was making was that Georgetown's play wasn't that much out of the ordinary for a rough, upstart, physical league. The only difference was that Georgetown was made up of majority black players. Why did so many people have a problem with Georgetown's Kente cloth shorts in the 90's? Coincidence? Sure. But when you call black players "thugs," don't try to tell me that there's not some racial message there. Just ask Richard Sherman what he thinks. He'll tell you. And quite frankly, I agree with him.

You seem to want to make my comments into something racial. Has nothing to do with race either. Thompson is the only one that ever made it about race. My comments are not about race, they are about behavior. You keep saying physical. Choking players is not physical. It's being a thug. Swinging at players is not physical, it's being a thug. Punches do get thrown by players and it's not thuggery, but the number of times it involved Georgetown players was over the top big time. And it was FAR more than ordinary. Thompson brought these kids in then promoted the us against the world mentality and the race card. I'd say the same things if Ewing, Graham etc were white. A thug is a thug. It's a behavior not a color.

The truth is never childish.

 

[rstone7727]

Just ask Richard Sherman what he thinks. He'll tell you. And quite frankly, I agree with him.

Hak, I was following along with you quite nicely until that last comment, If you agree with Richard Sherman you must be in the wrong.

 

[rrlbees]

Yeah, but it's one thing to have players go over the line from time to time because of emotion. It's quite another to have a coach and a program institutionalize it, embrace it, coach it, encourage it, and market it.

Ding ding ding.

 

[OrangeDW]

Interesting that everything after the 80's was kind of an afterthought. That w as surely the greatest era of the Big East but it's not like nothing happened after that.

If they were going to include everything, it would have to be like 6 hours long though.

I really was hoping for a little something on the Coleman-Douglas-Owens years, which were our best teams in my opinion.

 

[HakAttack]

You are spot on. Did people conveniently gloss over what Ewing and company went through at GT? Do they know what Ewing even endured in high school when he came to this country? And yet he shouldn't have been allowed to play college basketball because he was some kind of "thug"? I mean really. If people want to pick and choose, Cuse or any other school had players that weren't exactly choir boys and had their fair share of incidents. We get that there is a hatred for Gtwon - especially on a Cuse board -- but let's be real.

Ding. Ding. Ding.

 

[PoppyHart]

If they were going to include everything, it would have to be like 6 hours long though.

I really was hoping for a little something on the Coleman-Douglas-Owens years, which were our best teams in my opinion.

Yeah, a good documentary can't be too open-ended or it looses its intimacy. Even something this large is well outside the norm for a 30 for 30.

 

[cuseattle]

That was so good! Bravo!

 

[Cuseregular]

Good posts--feel like it is definitely closure, at least to a degree.

Maybe its just that we've just "completed" our first full year [football and hoops] in the ACC, so in a sense we're already one year removed from the Big East.

Dang... I'm happy that we are benefiting from the stability of the ACC, but I'm really going to miss the Big East. The old Big East--the real conference, not the non-regional monstrosity it became. There won't be anything like it ever again.

3 constants in life my friend, not 2. Death. taxes and change. There's been so much of it lately as I guess there has always been and always will be. Like JB I'm resistant to it and accept things somewhat begrudgingly. I'm all in and get what need be done to survive and thrive with modern athletics but even before watching that I felt a huge hole in the heart. Watching that makes me miss it all the more, the NYC thrill of the BE tourney, also rue for the past and miss so many things the old quality daily news paper in town.

Think I need to reread my copy of "Who moved my Cheese"...

 

[TheCusian]

C'mon. There are always two sides. Did Georgetown do thuggish things? Yes. Did they want academic requirements lessened? Yes. Did they have a point in being defiantly prideful black young men? Yes.

I thought the documentary did a good job of covering all of the bases. Both sides. I still hate Georgetown - but the way Jon ran things was good for the culture of basketball as it relates to race ultimately. Don't love everything they did to get there - but it was important culturally and historically.

 

[SWC75]

I still wonder what would have happened if the football schools had organized first and the basketball onlies afterwards, maybe something like this:

FOOTBALL CONFERENCE

Boston College, Syracuse, Army, Navy, Rutgers, Temple, Penn State Pittsburgh, West Virginia.

You play each team once in football and twice in basketball, home and home. Conference basketball tournament in the in the Carrier Dome, after an 8-9 play-in game. BC, SU, Rutgers, (who was very good in the 70's) Temple, Pitt and West Virginia all good in basketball. Army was just coming out of the K/K Era and Navy had that time with the Admiral. BC, SU, occasionally Navy, Penn State, Pitt and West Virginia all good in football.

BASKETBALL CONFERENCE

East: Holy Cross, Providence, Massachusetts, Connecticut, St. John's and Seton Hall
West: Georgetown, Villanova, LaSalle, St. Joseph's, Duquesne and St. Bonaventure

You play each team in your division twice, home and home and each team in the other division once, three at home, three on the road and switching each year. Conference tournament in MSG with a bye to the top two teams in each division.

There could be a certain number of non-conference games between the two conferences a year and maybe an annual "challenge" between the top 8 teams form the football conference and the top four teams in each division of the basketball conference.

We might still have that and the Northeast would be well represented in both college football and basketball.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

The irony that UConn was irrelevant in that documentary, just like they were irrelevant in building up the Big East, just like they have been relegated back to irrelevance by being forced into the AAC was very poetic.

 

[Toga]

The irony that UConn was irrelevant in that documentary, just like they were irrelevant in building up the Big East, just like they have been relegated back to irrelevance by being forced into the AAC was very poetic.

 

[SWC75]

C'mon. There are always two sides. Did Georgetown do thuggish things? Yes. Did they want academic requirements lessened? Yes. Did they have a point in being defiantly prideful black young men? Yes.

I thought the documentary did a good job of covering all of the bases. Both sides. I still hate Georgetown - but the way Jon ran things was good for the culture of basketball as it relates to race ultimately. Don't love everything they did to get there - but it was important culturally and historically.

Georgetown got some bad treatment by some idiotic fans but they actually welcomed negative reactions and used that to motivate their players. They had a rough style of play, (even beyond what we've seen from Pitt and UCONN in recent years), which they got away with. They wanted to be the "bad guys" and everybody accommodated them. I'm still surprised there weren't riots.

 

[longislandcuse]

That was an amazing documentary.

We should probably send that DVD to all of our recruits.

The non-mention of UCONN was fantastic and that pimpslap of WVU was harsh lol.

 

[NashvilleOrange]

I loved this. I wasn't alive during most of the content but it had a full 100% of my attention. Had to call my Dad right after, luckily he watched too. It gave me a glimpse into why he and many have always considered Georgetown a bigger rival than UConn. Great stuff.

 

[HarrisonJBounel]

Coincidence? Sure. But when you call black players "thugs," don't try to tell me that there's not some racial message there. Just ask Richard Sherman what he thinks. He'll tell you. And quite frankly, I agree with him.

OK - this crap has gotta stop. Nobody implied anything racist here - got it? Anyone can be a thug - there is NOTHING racial about it. Just because a person or persons who happen to be black get criticized for something, it does not mean there is anything racial about it.

It seems the only people who start talking about racism are those who imagine they are being offended.

 

[longtimefan]

Two points:

1. Crouthamel's absence is, in a way, shocking. Getting SU to come along was one of the keys to launching the league. Gavitt used his personal pull with Jake (they were frat bros at Dartmouth) to lure the Orange. Jake had shown that he was not enamored with joining a league when he turned down an invite to the Eastern 8 (PSU, Ruttie, maybe Pitt, etc.) a year or so before. I wonder if Jake is not well, or if his generally introverted personality just won out. I think someone should ask the producers about the omission.

2. I'm going to be a total contrarian on the "bringing Penn State into the league in the mid-80's would have insured the BE's long-term viability" screed. PSU is a football school now, and they may have been even more so 20-25 years ago. When the B1G came calling, they would have left in a heartbeat.

 

[Timonen]

The WVU board is in an uproar over their segment. It's a nice read especially considering one poster over there, who is one of the worst internet posters I've come across, is irate.

Overall I loved the documentary. It showed what the Big East is about but I wish they showed a little more about the mid-to late 2000's and how good the BET was then. I was thoroughly entertained though. A lot of Syracuse air time is always a good thing.

One of my takeaways from the whole thing was "this will be praised in 49 states. West Virginia will hate it.