Second round pick Thomas Bryant...

[SoBeCuse]

Have been away and just seeing this. If Bryant made a bad decision then what the hell did Roberson do? Can't just cherry pick certain guys that still got drafted when we get guys that are ranked similar and actually have them get worse over their jr/sr years due to destroying their confidence.

Yeah, but Roberson was never going to be a one or two and done type of player like Bryant. Roberson quickly was never on any NBA Draft lists/radar as well. Most importantly, Bryant without a doubt had the skills and motor to be an impact C for Syracuse. He would've filled a huge need for the team. He would've thrived anywhere. I'm not saying he's some Chris Webber or something but he was ready to ball from day 1. Not sure if Roberson could've learned to shoot or diversify his offensive game anywhere else.

 

[two3zone]

Yeah, but Roberson was never going to be a one or two and done type of player like Bryant. Roberson quickly was never on any NBA Draft lists/radar as well. Most importantly, Bryant without a doubt had the skills and motor to be an impact C for Syracuse. He would've filled a huge need for the team. He would've thrived anywhere. I'm not saying he's some Chris Webber or something but he was ready to ball from day 1. Not sure if Roberson could've learned to shoot anywhere else.

I heard around here that Roberson was one or two and done and there was no debate.

 

[RF2044]

Have been away and just seeing this. If Bryant made a bad decision then what the hell did Roberson do? Can't just cherry pick certain guys that still got drafted when we get guys that are ranked similar and actually have them get worse over their jr/sr years due to destroying their confidence.

Unlike the opinion expressed by some in this thread, I don't have an issue with evaluating a player's career after the fact and assessing how it went. I don't think anyone can dispute that Roberson's career was full of ups and downs. Now, there's no way we make that unexpected 2016 run to the final four without him flipping the lightswitch on during the NCAA tournament and rebounding like a beast. And maybe getting to experience a F4 validates his decision to come to SU--only he could answer that.

But I'd also say that it is fairly obvious that his development stunted and his career didn't unfold as planned--ESPECIALLY his senior year--given how he was rated coming out of high school. So from that perspective, did he make a mistake coming to SU? Probably, given that he went from arguably the MIP catalyst in the F4 run to getting benched as a senior. He was inconsistent and his offense never came around, and he became the whipping boy for an obstinate head coach, which couldn't have been a pleasant experience and is probably not how he envisioned his career unfolding when he selected SU. Maybe if he'd gone to one of his other schools, like Kansas, he would have actualized more of his offensive potential and had a more well-rounded career. Maybe he would have been a better fit for their style of play. But even if he'd gone to Kansas, it wouldn't change the biggest "flaw" that he has working against his NBA chances -- that he's an inside player despite being 6-8 215 pounds.

But in the main, I don't have an issue making an objective assessment. Guys like Roberson or Paul Harris [just as another example] might have been better off playing elsewhere, even though they both experienced success at SU. Especially in light of how things unfolded.

 

[chugg21]

Unlike the opinion expressed by some in this thread, I don't have an issue with evaluating a player's career after the fact and assessing how it went. I don't think anyone can dispute that Roberson's career was full of ups and downs. Now, there's no way we make that unexpected 2016 run to the final four without him flipping the lightswitch on during the NCAA tournament and rebounding like a beast. And maybe getting to experience a F4 validates his decision to come to SU--only he could answer that.

But I'd also say that it is fairly obvious that his development stunted and his career didn't unfold as planned--ESPECIALLY his senior year--given how he was rated coming out of high school. So from that perspective, did he make a mistake coming to SU? Probably, given that he went from arguably the MIP catalyst in the F4 run to getting benched as a senior. He was inconsistent and his offense never came around, and he became the whipping boy for an obstinate head coach, which couldn't have been a pleasant experience and is probably not how he envisioned his career unfolding when he selected SU. Maybe if he'd gone to one of his other schools, like Kansas, he would have actualized more of his offensive potential and had a more well-rounded career. Maybe he would have been a better fit for their style of play. But even if he'd gone to Kansas, it wouldn't change the biggest "flaw" that he has working against his NBA chances -- that he's an inside player despite being 6-8 215 pounds.

But in the main, I don't have an issue making an objective assessment. Guys like Roberson or Paul Harris [just as another example] might have been better off playing elsewhere, even though they both experienced success at SU. Especially in light of how things unfolded.

And I dont think Bryant was ever realistically going to be a 1st rounder no matter where he went. He just doesn't have NBA 1st round athleticism. Swanigan is a similar player with a good deal more skill and barely made it. In the past a guy like Sweetney could go in the lotto but that doesn't happen anymore.

 

[RF2044]

And I dont think Bryant was ever realistically going to be a 1st rounder no matter where he went. He just doesn't have NBA 1st round athleticism. Swanigan is a similar player with a good deal more skill and barely made it. In the past a guy like Sweetney could go in the lotto but that doesn't happen anymore.

That's fine--but it is important to point out that is your opinion. I and others [based upon this thread] have a different one -- that he might have been a better fit in our system, where his offensive skill would have been featured differently. And that he might have benefitted from our final four run [I know that the transitive property doesn't work, who knows if we make it with different variables in the lineup, as a different seed, etc.] from an exposure standpoint.

Bryant's problem was that he stayed around too long, and gave NBA folks the opportunity to nitpick his flaws. As a frosh, the potential mystique is still there for NBA scouts.

For comparison's sake, a guy like Tyler Ennis wasn't going to realistically be a 1st rounder, because he lacks the explosive athleticism that NBA teams covet. However, he rode the wave of our team being ranked #1 for a significant portion of the year and got a lot of attention because of that, and then wisely jumped ship because his stock would never be higher and had nowhere to go but down. Had he stayed at SU, there is no doubt in my mind that he would have had a better statistical year as a sophomore [and junior, and senior], that he would have improved his all around game as a lead guard, etc. but by then scouts would have had more game film to talk themselves out of liking him, due to his limitations. Ennis rode the hype, left at the right time, and snuck into the first round. I believe that Bryant would have been able to do so, as well. Not every NBA big -- even in the current game -- is a skywalking jumping jack. There were guys who went in the first round this year who were unrefined and not explosive athletes. But those guys were all frosh.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Bryant may have gotten more exposure on our team in 2016, but it doesn't seem reasonable to criticize him for not realizing that he could be joining a final four team in the Spirng of 2015.

 

[RF2044]

Bryant may have gotten more exposure on our team in 2016, but it doesn't seem reasonable to criticize him for not realizing that he could be joining a final four team in the Spirng of 2015.

You keep banging this drum. "Reasonable." I expressed my belief that he made a bad decision by choosing what he chose, in light of the objective, measureable outcome. There's nothing unreasonable about that, or how it was stated. This is a discussion board.

 

[HOFCeluck]

You keep banging this drum. "Reasonable." I expressed my belief that he made a bad decision by choosing what he chose, in light of the objective, measureable outcome. There's nothing unreasonable about that, or how it was stated. This is a discussion board.

NM...I wasn't responding to you in particular. Others have said he made a bad decsision specifically because we went to the Final Four. I think that's silly.

 

[two3zone]

We've had one first round draft pick in 17 years that was a center.

 

[RF2044]

So should he have known, in the Spring of 2015, that we'd be going to the final four? I mean if youre going to bang the "objective, measurable outcome" drum then he should have known that, right?

The "objective, measureable outcome" was where he was drafted. Oh Lord

This is such a bizarre hypothetical that I'm not sure that it needs to be answered, but okay -- no, he wouldn't have any way of knowing that we were going to the final four in 2015. and in fact, had he come here, it might have triggered a butterfly effect of variables changing that might have altered that outcome. Maybe we have a better regular season and get a higher seed, thereby changing our path through the tournament. Maybe we face a team that was a poor matchup, and we don't overcome it like we did in the Gonzaga / UVA games. Etc. etc. etc. Those are questions that can't be answered.

But the bigger issue is: what does not having advanced, prescient knowledge have to do with whether things worked out optimally or not?

 

[HOFCeluck]

The "objective, measureable outcome" was where he was drafted. Oh Lord

This is such a bizarre hypothetical that I'm not sure that it needs to be answered, but okay -- no, he wouldn't have any way of knowing that we were going to the final four in 2015. and in fact, had he come here, it might have triggered a butterfly effect of variables changing that might have altered that outcome. Maybe we have a better regular season and get a higher seed, thereby changing our path through the tournament. Maybe we face a team that was a poor matchup, and we don't overcome it. Etc. etc. etc. Those are questions that can't be answered.

But the bigger issue is: what does having advanced, prescient knowledge have to do with whether things worked out optimally or not?

I edited my post. I wasn't replying to you in a particular.

 

[RF2044]

I edited my post. I wasn't replying to you in a particular.

Okay, I saw above -- and I now get where you're coming from. Agree 100% about the F4 being the reason for it being a bad choice, and shouldn't be an evaluative criteria.

 

[CaptainJ]

We aren't a 10 seed with him on the team.

And we likely don't make the Final 4 either, due to that magical set of circumstances not being here, even if we would have been a "better" team. I'm guessing most of you have seen a Twilight Zone episode or anything where people change history and deal with unexpected consequences. This thread is making me look mature. OP is a very good poster, but even Michael Jordan had off nights. This is not dissimilar.

 

[RF2044]

And we likely don't make the Final 4 either, due to that magical set of circumstances not being here, even if we would have been a "better" team. I'm guessing most of you have seen a Twilight Zone episode or anything where people change history and deal with unexpected consequences. This thread is making me look mature. OP is a very good poster, but even Michael Jordan had off nights. This is not dissimilar.

Which specific Twilight Zone episode are you talking about?

Speaking of off nights... I don't think there is one that correlates to what you're describing.

 

[CaptainJ]

Which specific Twilight Zone episode are you talking about?

Speaking of off nights... I don't think there is one that correlates to what you're describing.

I wasnt thinking of a specific episode, but if you've read the classic book The Monkey's Paw in school, it's like that. In my opinion, odds are overwhelming that we don't go to the FF if we changed the circumstances.

They made a movie of Monkey's Paw a few years back. I don't remember if I watched it, but for folks who like hypotheticals and changing circumstances, I'm guessing it will suffice. There's a reason JB said that was his favorite season, before a pause and adding "besides the championship", almost out of duty. Both had different degrees of magic in them.

 

[RF2044]

I wasnt thinking of a specific episode, but if you've read the classic book The Monkey's Paw in school, it's like that. In my opinion, odds are overwhelming that we don't go to the FF if we changed the circumstances.

They made a movie of Monkey's Paw a few years back. I don't remember if I watched it, but for folks who like hypotheticals and changing circumstances, I'm guessing it will suffice. There's a reason JB said that was his favorite season, before a pause and adding "besides the championship", almost out of duty. Both had different degrees of magic in them.

Precisely.

In your opinion.

Others who have a different opinion don't need thought police approval on whether their opinions are valid.