slight specific letdown about Babers era

[jgeorge322]

Moe’s easily a returning 1,000 yard ACC rusher, had we not featured three backs last year.

Adams was a 4 star rb who performed well but left OU.

Howard ran over 5 star defenders at FSU like they were 5 year olds in front of a moving ice cream truck.

The issue is not our talent at RB, it’s our young OL and failure to adjust.

We dont seem to agree well.

 

[Millhouse]

There is something off. Look at Baylor’s YPP under Briles. Look at Bowling Green’s YPP under Babers. So why the heck haven’t we seen this any of the 4 years at SU? If it is a talent issue, Babers needs to bring in new recruiting blood.

i think our yards per play will be much better this year than the dungey years. we'll throw more and we'll throw better. baylor's offense was the best ever, great scheme with really fast guys.

 

[orangepassion]

Moe Neal averaged 5.4 yards a carry last year. Adams averaged 9.2 yards/carry at Oklahoma. RB is definitely our problem.

 

[rrlbees]

Well it is not winning football unless it puts points on the board. Stats in 40 pt losses are for losers. What was shaky — roll outs and no yards gained, fumble and interception when the game was still competitive. Now, it is only his second start so of course he will get better.

I’ve now heard 2 people, Babers and Whigham, wonder about the interception. Why did the WR not stop and instead just ran out of bounds?

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Moe Neal averaged 5.4 yards a carry last year. Adams averaged 9.2 yards/carry at Oklahoma. RB is definitely our problem.

I like Adams. I think he has potential.

Neal is vastly overrated by this board. As a starter he is not ACC level. He runs straight well but that’s about it. As a rotation guy he is fine. 5.55 ypc ties you for 97th last year, Mo was shy of that. 6.00 would make you 61st. 6.4 which is a full ypc more than Neal would only get you to 38th.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I’ve now heard 2 people, Babers and Whigham, wonder about the interception. Why did the WR not stop and instead just ran out of bounds?

What the WR did made no sense, but it doesn’t excuse an awful decision to even throw that pass in the first place.

 

[st_machine]

What has bothered me with the running game is the lack of sophistication, most runs seem to be the same run up the middle between the tackles and run into the pile. Now if the OL can open holes then that would be Ok, but we don't seem to have an overpowering OL and rarely do, even against FCS teams we have tended to struggle with this.

We have not run many sweeps, the one we did run against Liberty went for big yardage but was called back on a hold. Very few if any stretch type runs to allow the RB to angle out and pick a hole. This at least allows the back to bounce out and keep momentum even when getting hit. Running straight up the middle the backs get bottled up and have a hard time bouncing off hits and keeping forward momentum. Most of Maryland's runs were either off tackle but with the back having to ability to bounce outside but very few straight up the middle.
I believe teams see this and seem to be able to stuff runs by having to defend a small portion of the field with the run game. I know that Dungey was a threat to keep the ball and take off but given that DeVito hasn't been the running threat that Dungey was we've done a poor job of giving our RB's a chance to stretch the defense and pick holes. This leads to few long runs and puts more pressure on the passing game, heck we ran 2 straight times up the middle against Liberty and couldn't pick up a 1st down when we needed less than 2 yards. We will need a bit more imagination from Baber's in the run plays if we are to be successful this year especially given the way the OL has performed so far this year.

In 2 games I don't remember a jet sweep yet either to help get Riley or Johnson get involved in the offense with their speed to the outside, just something different to show the Defense and keep them thinking. Where were the screen passes or swing passes to keep the D honest? The Wr's have not played well but screens and swing passes help the passing game. I kept thinking we are holding back with Clemson coming up but really? I don't think this is the reason but I don't have any reason other than plain stubbornness from the coaching staff. It was the vanilla type play calling against Middle Tennessee that kept them in the game and limited us to 23 points and 2.6 yards rushing average, with Dungey doing most of the damage on the ground with his feet. Just very disappointed with the play calling which I don't believe has put us in a position to succeed offensively.

Has DeVito made mistakes sure, and needs to keep improving but the play calling and running game better get better or we will be in for a long season, especially if we need to start winning shootouts with the way the defense played Saturday. Still early but the need for improvement in almost all phases of the game is a bit disturbing.

What has bothered me with the running game is the lack of sophistication, most runs seem to be the same run up the middle between the tackles and run into the pile. Now if the OL can open holes then that would be Ok, but we don't seem to have an overpowering OL and rarely do, even against FCS teams we have tended to struggle with this.

We have not run many sweeps, the one we did run against Liberty went for big yardage but was called back on a hold. Very few if any stretch type runs to allow the RB to angle out and pick a hole. This at least allows the back to bounce out and keep momentum even when getting hit. Running straight up the middle the backs get bottled up and have a hard time bouncing off hits and keeping forward momentum. Most of Maryland's runs were either off tackle but with the back having to ability to bounce outside but very few straight up the middle.
I believe teams see this and seem to be able to stuff runs by having to defend a small portion of the field with the run game. I know that Dungey was a threat to keep the ball and take off but given that DeVito hasn't been the running threat that Dungey was we've done a poor job of giving our RB's a chance to stretch the defense and pick holes. This leads to few long runs and puts more pressure on the passing game, heck we ran 2 straight times up the middle against Liberty and couldn't pick up a 1st down when we needed less than 2 yards. We will need a bit more imagination from Baber's in the run plays if we are to be successful this year especially given the way the OL has performed so far this year.

In 2 games I don't remember a jet sweep yet either to help get Riley or Johnson get involved in the offense with their speed to the outside, just something different to show the Defense and keep them thinking. Where were the screen passes or swing passes to keep the D honest? The Wr's have not played well but screens and swing passes help the passing game. I kept thinking we are holding back with Clemson coming up but really? I don't think this is the reason but I don't have any reason other than plain stubbornness from the coaching staff. It was the vanilla type play calling against Middle Tennessee that kept them in the game and limited us to 23 points and 2.6 yards rushing average, with Dungey doing most of the damage on the ground with his feet. Just very disappointed with the play calling which I don't believe has put us in a position to succeed offensively.

Has DeVito made mistakes sure, and needs to keep improving but the play calling and running game better get better or we will be in for a long season, especially if we need to start winning shootouts with the way the defense played Saturday. Still early but the need for improvement in almost all phases of the game is a bit disturbing.

Couldn’t agree more. It’s been 4 yrs of dive up the middle . It’s the elephant in the room imho

 

[qdawgg]

Couldn’t agree more. It’s been 4 yrs of dive up the middle . It’s the elephant in the room imho

That and not passing to the middle of the field even when losing a game and the middle is almost wide open.

On the flip side, if your read what he likes to do on offense to force the defense into particular situations, it makes sense why he runs up the middle and doesn't pass to the middle of the field often. What I don't like is the unwillingness at times to adjust the running plays and passing routes to counter what the defense is doing. We saw this in in the WF game. Everyone blames the weather, B.S., Wake had the same weather conditions as us. The middle of the field was wide open to passing the entire game and we made no dedicated attempt to take advantage of it.

 

[Millhouse]

I like Adams. I think he has potential.

Neal is vastly overrated by this board. As a starter he is not ACC level. He runs straight well but that’s about it. As a rotation guy he is fine. 5.55 ypc ties you for 97th last year, Mo was shy of that. 6.00 would make you 61st. 6.4 which is a full ypc more than Neal would only get you to 38th.

i still think he should be a wr

 

[Millhouse]

That and not passing to the middle of the field even when losing a game and the middle is almost wide open.

On the flip side, if your read what he likes to do on offense to force the defense into particular situations, it makes sense why he runs up the middle and doesn't pass to the middle of the field often. What I don't like is the unwillingness at times to adjust the running plays and passing routes to counter what the defense is doing. We saw this in in the WF game. Everyone blames the weather, B.S., Wake had the same weather conditions as us. The middle of the field was wide open to passing the entire game and we made no dedicated attempt to take advantage of it.

a lot of college offenses count guys in the box and run it inside or throw it outside depending on the number. so it makes sense to me that those offense throw outside more than normal. we have had a lot of plays where the OL just fails when the numbers are in their favor over the years.

 

[SmilinBob]

This OL is built for being in shape not pushing other teams around in the 1st quarter. Wear the D down. The D didn't show up and being forced to pass just pinned the Maryland D ears back I'm not sure if this type of linemen weight system would be conducive to throwing the ball 50+ times a game.

 

[AAM62]

What has bothered me with the running game is the lack of sophistication, most runs seem to be the same run up the middle between the tackles and run into the pile. Now if the OL can open holes then that would be Ok, but we don't seem to have an overpowering OL and rarely do, even against FCS teams we have tended to struggle with this.

We have not run many sweeps, the one we did run against Liberty went for big yardage but was called back on a hold. Very few if any stretch type runs to allow the RB to angle out and pick a hole. This at least allows the back to bounce out and keep momentum even when getting hit. Running straight up the middle the backs get bottled up and have a hard time bouncing off hits and keeping forward momentum. Most of Maryland's runs were either off tackle but with the back having to ability to bounce outside but very few straight up the middle.
I believe teams see this and seem to be able to stuff runs by having to defend a small portion of the field with the run game. I know that Dungey was a threat to keep the ball and take off but given that DeVito hasn't been the running threat that Dungey was we've done a poor job of giving our RB's a chance to stretch the defense and pick holes. This leads to few long runs and puts more pressure on the passing game, heck we ran 2 straight times up the middle against Liberty and couldn't pick up a 1st down when we needed less than 2 yards. We will need a bit more imagination from Baber's in the run plays if we are to be successful this year especially given the way the OL has performed so far this year.

In 2 games I don't remember a jet sweep yet either to help get Riley or Johnson get involved in the offense with their speed to the outside, just something different to show the Defense and keep them thinking. Where were the screen passes or swing passes to keep the D honest? The Wr's have not played well but screens and swing passes help the passing game. I kept thinking we are holding back with Clemson coming up but really? I don't think this is the reason but I don't have any reason other than plain stubbornness from the coaching staff. It was the vanilla type play calling against Middle Tennessee that kept them in the game and limited us to 23 points and 2.6 yards rushing average, with Dungey doing most of the damage on the ground with his feet. Just very disappointed with the play calling which I don't believe has put us in a position to succeed offensively.

Has DeVito made mistakes sure, and needs to keep improving but the play calling and running game better get better or we will be in for a long season, especially if we need to start winning shootouts with the way the defense played Saturday. Still early but the need for improvement in almost all phases of the game is a bit disturbing.

you dont hold anything back when Maryland is destroying you

 

[SWC75]

Couldn’t agree more. It’s been 4 yrs of dive up the middle . It’s the elephant in the room imho

We need a seal here and a seal here...

 

[Trueblue25]

Moe Neal is so far from the issue, this thread is bordering lunacy.

 

[Newhouser]

I like Adams. I think he has potential.

Neal is vastly overrated by this board. As a starter he is not ACC level. He runs straight well but that’s about it. As a rotation guy he is fine. 5.55 ypc ties you for 97th last year, Mo was shy of that. 6.00 would make you 61st. 6.4 which is a full ypc more than Neal would only get you to 38th.

Did Adams not play the 2nd and 3rd quarter? He seemed to be not on the field a lot. I agree that Moe is serviceable but I think we need more Adams.

 

[RandomGuy]

I think much of this is overall scheme.(counter opinions welcome)

In a ZBS much of the Oline blocking will be lateral, and the RPO has the linemen surrendering any forward push before 3 yards.

As the field shortens, it's easier to clog any developing holes with garbage (why we need an Elmore). I LIKE it for a long field, because it works with the spread.

Shanahan's Broncos were glorious at this. A newer concept, with less solutions, at the time. I think Elmos role is to combat the solutions. We use a modern scheme, but have to use a fullback to help. 1 step forward, 1 step back.

I'm all for the ZBS in space, but I would love to see some power drive blocking on designed runs. My guess the theory here, is master of all trades = Jack of none. I've seen others use both with success. If we never use power/man, I dont expect a push, ever, cuz that's not how zbs works.

 

[dollarbill44]

It’s not impossible to recruit a quarterback who can pass and run. I’m not saying DeVito is slow, but he lacks the intangibles you’d like to see in a QB. Hopefully that comes with time, but I don’t see it now.

How do you know he lacks something that isn't tangible?

 

[Oakland]

Stats are for helping you understand what happened in the game. The stat you and many others should be focused on is 354-70 yds in rushing, of which the 70 was being discussed above.

Given the near universal consensus that the OL is a problem, and that the running game sucked. TD's passing stats are all the more impressive. I'd take them every game.

Well it is not winning football unless it puts points on the board. Stats in 40 pt losses are for losers. What was shaky — roll outs and no yards gained, fumble and interception when the game was still competitive. Now, it is only his second start so of course he will get better.

 

[billsin01]

71%, 330 yards and we're calling it shaky

Lol! Right. I mean IMO he improved immensely and people are calling him shaky because our defense lost us the game in the first quarter.

I'll take a stab at defending criticism of DeVito (and then get to posting about the actual point of the original post).

Even if we throw out the notion that garbage time numbers can be dubious, I think what's deceiving about TD is this: When the play works and he steps into a throw to an open receiver, it's a thing of beauty. In fact, his being capable of doing that puts us well ahead of where we've been many times in the recent history of this program, so no one should be absolutely crushing the kid.

However, when things don't go exactly according to plan, TD really, really struggles. Perhaps we're spoiled by watching Dungey do really well in this regard, but TD moves the pocket backward as his first reaction to pressure and then if he escapes outside, his improvising is nearly non-existent. Combine that with the fact that he made mental mistakes that just don't seem excusable to me (4th downs), that he is absolutely zero threat to make a play with his legs, and that -- whether by design or TD's decision-making -- we don't attack the seam/middle of the field and I think you get a concerning situation.

He may be completely fine when all is said and done but I do get concerned that we're watching a kid with excellent tools but not a ton of feel for the position. I could be wrong, but I"m concerned.

As far as the RBs, we pretty much abandoned the run at some point in this game (22 carries total). But in general I think it's somewhat early to judge the RBs. I don't think Neal was really an ACC level starter for the first year and a half and I never viewed strickland that way. Thought Neal really played well the second half of last year and believe he'll be OK there. Was really hoping Adams would be a stud but we haven't quite seen that yet. Really like Howard too.

To me, it's just really tough build an offensive line when you're not just crushing it on the recruiting trail like a clemson or Bama, etc. How many high school kids are 6'5", can carry 300+, have long arms and quick feet? Just feel like it's a really tough chore and we made strides there last year but appear to have regressed (or been hurt by injuries ... or both) this year.

Schematically it does feel like a little variety could help as well but I'm sure there is a method to that maddness and I do think spreading people out and hitting them up the middle with runs is a good, if not exactly bulletproof, strategy.

 

[billsin01]

How do you know he lacks something that isn't tangible?

Pocket presence (feeling that pressure without exactly seeing it), that subtle movement around the pocket to buy time, an ability to improvise when a play doesn't work the way it was drawn up on a white board, internal understanding of game situation (we didn't seem to play in either week with enough tempo and the 4th down decision-making would have been tough for a high school qb to defend) -- tough to quantify those things but Tommy unquestionably struggled with all three saturday. I wouldn't call his overall performance terrible, but his movement within the pocket is brutal. First step is always straight backwards.

I would contrast this with stepping into a throw, hitting an open receiver in stride, being able to make every throw, throwing mechanics, etc. Those he seems to clearly possess and you can tangibly see them when a play goes right.

So defense, coaching and OL can probably line up before DeVito to take criticism for Saturday but saying he at least hasn't displayed those QB intangibles yet is pretty fair, imo

 

[qdawgg]

a lot of college offenses count guys in the box and run it inside or throw it outside depending on the number. so it makes sense to me that those offense throw outside more than normal. we have had a lot of plays where the OL just fails when the numbers are in their favor over the years.

I definitely get that and I'm not arguing that it's a failed/bad logic in any way. You have to stick to what you do if you believe that forcing the defense to react to your specific scheme will then allow you to do what you want to. I just feel there have been some games where what we do has been well countered by the opposing defense; through good game planning, player execution, etc. At that point, sometimes you aren't going to force the defense to do what you want because they're winning the battle. I think at those times, I wish DB would just give what the defense will give him even if it's power runs to the outside, TE up the middle, slot WR in the middle, etc.

 

[Millhouse]

I definitely get that and I'm not arguing that it's a failed/bad logic in any way. You have to stick to what you do if you believe that forcing the defense to react to your specific scheme will then allow you to do what you want to. I just feel there have been some games where what we do has been well countered by the opposing defense; through good game planning, player execution, etc. At that point, sometimes you aren't going to force the defense to do what you want because they're winning the battle. I think at those times, I wish DB would just give what the defense will give him even if it's power runs to the outside, TE up the middle, slot WR in the middle, etc.

i'm guessing that babers thinks we are average run blocking away from being phenomenal on offense and he's just not ready to give up on it

 

[qdawgg]

i'm guessing that babers thinks we are average run blocking away from being phenomenal on offense and he's just not ready to give up on it

Very possible and he might be right, I don't know anything at this point. Since day 1, certain games he (coaching staff) seem bent on sticking to the script when it's not working. Very frustrating to watch. I get that attitude long-term, "this is what we practice, it will eventually benefit us this season". But when you're in the middle of getting knocked around in a particular game, you've gotta mix it up even if it's not what you do. Throwing in the middle of the field isn't some profound change that will negatively impact what you do the following weeks. Try to do something different to get back in the game. At no point where we winning that game with what we were doing.

 

[TheCusian]

Moe Neal is not the problem. He's #5 in the conference in yards from scrimmage (115 yards per game) in two games where we were not exactly explosive.

 

[OrangePA]

Our running backs are only averaging 4.48 yards per carry since 2018

4.48 was 57th in the country last year and that number includes sack yardage

Bowling green didn't run the ball that well either - baylor's gaudy rushing numbers are hard to duplicate.

It's fine - we are going to throw more than Baylor did because of the dome and that's what we should want. I don't want to fall into that dual threat trap - when you start focusing too much on a QBs rushing, you end up with QBs that can't throw. Passing first, rushing a nice bonus if you can get it

Even when we were winning consistently under Mac and P we had trouble recruiting top notch OL.

We ran the option precisely for that reason - we needed to put pressure on the opposing defenses by forcing them to account for a running QB.

Dungey afforded us the same ability the past few years - his dual threat was not a trap but a huge benefit.

That's my concern about Tommy - that his talent may put too much pressure on the OL.