So What Have We Learned from the MCW Incident?

[br801]

IMHO since it's out there so publically now, it doesn't look good that this wasn't addressed at all in any official way and the result is it sends the wrong message that, at best, says misdeeds will not be addressed if you're lucky enough to have nuanced yourself out of the predicament, or at worse, may actually look like you're condoning it. Not asking for some draconian overreach with multigame punishment or anything like that, but rather something minor as I outlined elsewhere could have been done to send a message.

This could have been one of those rare impactful moment where the program could've made the small statement that it is not a win at all costs organization. Unfortunately that opportunity has been missed and it's too bad. Going forward we forfeit the right to be defensive when others have questions about the values of the program and it's mindset as to whether it's about winning and only winning.

So not only was it a bad move philosophically not to address it at all but it will have an impact, albeit in a minor way, on the brand that is Syracuse basketball giving ammunition to critics and naysayers. In the grand scheme of college transgressions that go on that we hear about every day, or with respect to life in general its not huge deal at all no doubt, but I'd preferred to have been able to hold up our program as perhaps better than most of the others.

We're not. We're in there with the rest. No better, no worse. No big deal, as I said above in the big picture but certainly it's a tad dissappointing having lost a teachable moment to the youth of our community (and nation for that matter) that would certainly benefit from such messages..

Clearly, this entire incident is pretty insignificant in the scheme of things, but your points are reasonable and make sense.

I remember a year ago, when it seemed I was forever trying to explain to otherwise intelligent people (often futilely) that what had happened here was not what had happened at Penn State. Rightly or wrongly, the image of the university indisputably took a hit, and that can never be a good thing.

Obviously, the MCW incident is not on the same scale. Still, as an alumnus, I'm disappointed in how this has been handled publicly by all concerned -- the administration, Gross, Boeheim -- because their actions and statements do provide fodder for the critics, and arguably do reflect poorly on all of us with a connection to Syracuse University.

 

[NYCSUGrad]

Actually it's Congress that didn't authorize the increased funds for embassy and consulate security that might and I say might have saved the ambassador's life.

 

[Shenexon]

I'm not seeking answers to this this question here, but I wonder how many of you... before the age of 21 ... ever did anything illegal, unlawful or dishonest. This would include, but not be limited to: underage drinking, cheating on a test or a homework assignment, using illegal drugs, speeding, violations of "junior license" restrictions (or whatever they are called today), violation of other vehicle laws, trespassing, non-consentual sex, public intoxication, disorderly conduct, and, yes, shoplifting.

I was a pretty geeky kid (and female, to boot), but I plead guilty to at least six of the above. And I've known many kids who've had charges (marijuana possession/growing, shoplifting, etc) removed from their records after six months of good behavior -- allowing them to go on to become lawyers, doctors, etc (professions that would have been difficult if they had criminal records).

Now, I ask, how many kids who are NOT public figures get detained for shoplifting at a mall, pay their "penalty" (I think "fine" is a misleading term), and move on --- without anyone else knowing about it? Many, according to a mall executive I know. Maybe some are children of your friends.

Did MCW do something wrong? Absolutely. Has he paid for it (both monetarily and in terms of public embarrassment)? Absolutely. But assuming it is not a pattern (and there is no reason to believe it is), I think some here are being a bit "too holier than thou."

Over the course of our lives, we all make countless decisions that affect other people in addition to our own futures. If we were all to graph those decisions, everyone would find some plotted points on that graph that we'd change if we could. Some fall into the category you list above, with others just having consequences we didn't intend. They aren't all just youthful indiscretions, but can be good or bad business, personal, or ethical judgments. This is one that MCW will have take to heart and learn from, but I don't believe we should judge too harshly unless our graphs show only good decision points. Quite honestly, my graph has points scattered all over, so I will refrain from damning him and hope for better decisions in the future instead.

 

[dasher]

Actually it's Congress that didn't authorize the increased funds for embassy and consulate security that might and I say might have saved the ambassador's life.

huh?

 

[El Jefe Syr]

It's definitely disappointing, but I've known plenty of kids who have made this mistake. MCW paid a hefty monetary penalty, has been embarrassed by the social media-sphere, and will hear about this all year long from opposing fans - that's punishment enough as long as he doesn't do it again.

We're fans of a team of college kids, and they're going to make mistakes like: taking their education for granted, shoplifting etc... what we can hope as fans is that they learn from their mistakes and grow as people.

Sometimes they won't learn and do it again and again. Others will, and often that's the best any of us can do in life.

 

[NYCSUGrad]

Dasher that was in reply to Capt Tuttle's post blaming the ambassador's death on Obama. I couldn't let that mistake go uncorrected.

As for MCW I am on the fence. No formal charges were filed but if basketball players get penalized for missing curfew maybe MCW should have had a public penalty too. Then again, the shoplifting incident is totally unrelated to basketball. I really don't know what the solution should have been.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

CTO, I love ya but we get these posts from you every year when one of our kids get caught doing something they shouldn't. It does not go on at other schools at the frequency it does here. And to echo someone else here, I doubt many people here have ever committed non consentual sex. Otherwise known as rape. Maybe we get the holier than thou posts because our coach doesn't take these things as seriously as we might like or as seriously as other coaches would. I am a great fan of Jb. I was at both his first win and his first loss. But he is way too lax with this stuff.

How do you know? I think you are wrong. Did you see the article on UCLA? We know enough about UConn. A lot of people allude to things at UK.

If you put a big time University under this type of microscope, I believe you would find a similar frequency of events.

 

[rrlbees]

How do you know? I think you are wrong. Did you see the article on UCLA? We know enough about UConn. A lot of people allude to things at UK.

If you put a big time University under this type of microscope, I believe you would find a similar frequency of events.

Could you check the crimes committed at other schools and then check if any of them got suspended for any period of time by the coach or school?

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

 

[MikeSU02]

I'm not seeking answers to this this question here, but I wonder how many of you... before the age of 21 ... ever did anything illegal, unlawful or dishonest. This would include, but not be limited to: underage drinking, cheating on a test or a homework assignment, using illegal drugs, speeding, violations of "junior license" restrictions (or whatever they are called today), violation of other vehicle laws, trespassing, non-consentual sex, public intoxication, disorderly conduct, and, yes, shoplifting.

Bolding is my doing.

CTO, can I please get some clarification here. First, I assume you are writing "non-consensual sex".

Second, billsin01 had a highlight asking if you were kidding and it looks like you had originally had "...under the age of 18", which you then edited to just go back to non-consensual sex.

Am I unaware of a definition of this term that isn't equal to sexual assault?

Unless I am missing something, grouping non-consensual sex with the other items in that list is extraordinarily reprehensible.

 

[Cuseregular]

Bolding is my doing.

CTO, can I please get some clarification here. First, I assume you are writing "non-consensual sex".

Second, billsin01 had a highlight asking if you were kidding and it looks like you had originally had "...under the age of 18", which you then edited to just go back to non-consensual sex.

Am I unaware of a definition of this term that isn't equal to sexual assault?

Unless I am missing something, grouping non-consensual sex with the other items in that list is extraordinarily reprehensible.

wow someone said it, hope you dont get banned...

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Bolding is my doing.

CTO, can I please get some clarification here. First, I assume you are writing "non-consensual sex".

Second, billsin01 had a highlight asking if you were kidding and it looks like you had originally had "...under the age of 18", which you then edited to just go back to non-consensual sex.

Am I unaware of a definition of this term that isn't equal to sexual assault?

Unless I am missing something, grouping non-consensual sex with the other items in that list is extraordinarily reprehensible.

In most states, a minor cannot give consent to have sex (the age of consent varies from state to state). In New York, sex with a person under 17 is a misdemeanor if the perpetrator is at least 16. (“Sexual misconduct,” NY Penal Law § 130.20.).

Remember that kiddies, if you hook up at your Junior Prom, you might be commiting a crime.

That's probably the context that CTO was referring to.

 

[dinno28]

i think we learned that if your going to shoplift at Lord and Taylor you need to get away at least 4 out of 5 times or your losing money ... unless your going for higher end merchandise since their civil penalty has a 500. cap

 

[MikeSU02]

In most states, a minor cannot give consent to have sex (the age of consent varies from state to state). In New York, sex with a person under 17 is a misdemeanor if the perpetrator is at least 16. (“Sexual misconduct,” NY Penal Law § 130.20.).

Remember that kiddies, if you hook up at your Junior Prom, you might be commiting a crime.

That's probably the context that CTO was referring to.

That's what I thought and that would make sense in what billsin01 quoted, but then she edited to just "non-consetual sex" which would be generalized sexual assault.

I didn't want to jump to conclusions and why I asked for clarification.

 

[dollarbill44]

The takeaway from a number of the posts on here: if you've done something bad, you have no business judging whether or not someone else has done something bad.

Beautiful.

No wonder society is in such lousy shape.

No, I think the takeaway from the posts that you refer to is that "good" people can still make mistakes. The OP said that we were mistaken to think the MCW was actually the "good" person we thought he was. I, CTO and a few others seem to have taken the side that he made a mistake, that most (probably all) of us have made mistakes of similar magnitude. If making mistakes makes someone "bad", then every human is bad. There are a lot of people out there that feel that humans are inherently bad. I haven't seen anyone on this thread use that rationale to make the argument that MCW is not a "good" person, rather it is because he made a mistake.

Maybe he isn't a good person, but my initial post in this thread was meant that who are we to judge if he is a good person from one publicized mistake when we have all made mistakes that could probably have gotten us arrested.

 

[dollarbill44]

That's what I thought and that would make sense in what billsin01 quoted, but then she edited to just "non-consetual sex" which would be generalized sexual assault.

I didn't want to jump to conclusions and why I asked for clarification.

I'm not going to speak for CTO on this one, but I think most people who went to college before 2000 (rough estimate so please don't get hung up on the year) probably know of an instance where someone had sex with a person who was inebriated to the point of incoherency, which nowadays would get you thrown in jail for "non-consensual" sex.

 

[OttoMets]

No, I think the takeaway from the posts that you refer to is that "good" people can still make mistakes. The OP said that we were mistaken to think the MCW was actually the "good" person we thought he was. I, CTO and a few others seem to have taken the side that he made a mistake, that most (probably all) of us have made mistakes of similar magnitude. If making mistakes makes someone "bad", then every human is bad. There are a lot of people out there that feel that humans are inherently bad. I haven't seen anyone on this thread use that rationale to make the argument that MCW is not a "good" person, rather it is because he made a mistake.

Maybe he isn't a good person, but my initial post in this thread was meant that who are we to judge if he is a good person from one publicized mistake when we have all made mistakes that could probably have gotten us arrested.

That's a fair point. Of course everyone, good and bad, makes mistakes. And it'd be foolish to tag someone as a "bad person" based on one incident (of this magnitude, at least), with such limited knowledge about that person. Don't think anyone meant to do that, though.

And I did see a number of flat-out appeals to hypocrisy: "Have you ever done something wrong? Then you're not allowed to judge others." And that's just nonsense - morally gutless and intellectually weak.

 

[dollarbill44]

That's a fair point. Of course everyone, good and bad, makes mistakes. And it'd be foolish to tag someone as a "bad person" based on one incident (of this magnitude, at least), with such limited knowledge about that person. Don't think anyone meant to do that, though.

And I did see a number of flat-out appeals to hypocrisy: "Have you ever done something wrong? Then you're not allowed to judge others." And that's just nonsense - morally gutless and intellectually weak.

What if one takes the viewpoint that humans shouldn't be judging each other since we're all fallible? I believe this is a common thread among Hindus, Buddhists and Christians (in theory anyway).

 

[OttoMets]

What if one takes the viewpoint that humans shouldn't be judging each other since we're all fallible? I believe this is a common thread among Hindus, Buddhists and Christians (in theory anyway).

I'm afraid I don't agree with that (and that's the diplomatic answer).

A healthy civilization is dependent on individuals judging one another.

 

[Shenexon]

I'm afraid I don't agree with that (and that's the diplomatic answer).

A healthy civilization is dependent on individuals judging one another.

"If each man or woman could understand that every other human life is as full of sorrows, or joys, or base temptations, of heartaches and of remorse as his own . . . how much kinder, how much gentler he would be.” William Allen White

 

[Shenexon]

"If each man or woman could understand that every other human life is as full of sorrows, or joys, or base temptations, of heartaches and of remorse as his own . . . how much kinder, how much gentler he would be.” William Allen White

Others may find this quote more appropriate:

“I think if this country gets any kinder or gentler, it's literally going to cease to exist." - Donald Trump

 

[OttoMets]

"If each man or woman could understand that every other human life is as full of sorrows, or joys, or base temptations, of heartaches and of remorse as his own . . . how much kinder, how much gentler he would be.” William Allen White

There's a line on the first page of The Great Gatsby that says something similar (something about "whenever you feel like criticizing someone, remember that all the people in the world haven't had the same advantages you've had").

One of my favorites, and words to live by (both White's and Fitzgerald's).

There's an important distinction to be made, however, between this kind of judgment and the kind of judgment I'm referring to. Empty judgments, as White notes, serve only to set people against one another. Judgments designed to reinforce positive societal behavior (say, shaming a litterbug) are hugely important to a happy and well-functioning society.

Police can't be everywhere. We're all reliant upon each other to know right from wrong and, hopefully, to discourage bad behavior. Without the ability to judge (and the recognition that that is a positive thing), we can't do that.

 

[dollarbill44]

There's a line on the first page of The Great Gatsby that says something similar (something about "whenever you feel like criticizing someone, remember that all the people in the world haven't had the same advantages you've had").

One of my favorites, and words to live by (both White's and Fitzgerald's).

There's an important distinction to be made, however, between this kind of judgment and the kind of judgment I'm referring to. Empty judgments, as White notes, serve only to set people against one another. Judgments designed to reinforce positive societal behavior (say, shaming a litterbug) are hugely important to a happy and well-functioning society.

Police can't be everywhere. We're all reliant upon each other to know right from wrong and, hopefully, to discourage bad behavior. Without the ability to judge (and the recognition that that is a positive thing), we can't do that.

You are referring to discipline rather than judging, however (i.e. shaming a litterbug). MCW received his discipline from L&T. What has gone on in this thread is a judgment of his character.

 

[OttoMets]

You are referring to discipline rather than judging, however (i.e. shaming a litterbug). MCW received his discipline from L&T. What has gone on in this thread is a judgment of his character.

I don't think shaming involves discipline. It's a recognition of something wrong that's been done. A judgment. Pretty similar, thankfully, to the collective recognition on here that Carter-Williams did something wrong.

Not a character valuation, but a simple assessment of the practice itself.

 

[Shenexon]

There's a line on the first page of The Great Gatsby that says something similar (something about "whenever you feel like criticizing someone, remember that all the people in the world haven't had the same advantages you've had").

One of my favorites, and words to live by (both White's and Fitzgerald's).

There's an important distinction to be made, however, between this kind of judgment and the kind of judgment I'm referring to. Empty judgments, as White notes, serve only to set people against one another. Judgments designed to reinforce positive societal behavior (say, shaming a litterbug) are hugely important to a happy and well-functioning society.

Police can't be everywhere. We're all reliant upon each other to know right from wrong and, hopefully, to discourage bad behavior. Without the ability to judge (and the recognition that that is a positive thing), we can't do that.

I agree with your point, but think that MCW needs to be sanctioned by his family, friends, team, JB, and SU, not berated by a host of media analysts or internet posters. He may have made a deal to keep the sanctions at a societal level rather than a legal one, but he'll feel the sting of his bad decision for a long time to come. The trash-talk from his peers on the court should be brutal, friends and foes alike. I think the posted judgments of random individuals may discourage others from similar behaviors, but he'll only really feel the rebuke of those closest to him. If the situation didn't result in criminal charges, isn't that the way it should be?

 

[Cuseregular]

I don't think shaming involves discipline. It's a recognition of something wrong that's been done. A judgment. Pretty similar, thankfully, to the collective recognition on here that Carter-Williams did something wrong.

Not a character valuation, but a simple assessment of the practice itself.

This is lunacy, God forbid anyone makes a character judgement on a documented thief, especially one thats shown no sign of understanding theres something bad about that and a program that by doing nothing publically looks like they're condoning it. God forbid. Absolute insanity. And what's real lunacy is understanding we may be in the minority on this.

I just gave away my tickets for tonight as I just can't sit there in good conscious with my feelings on this. Love JB the basketball coach and I get he feels thats all his role should be with his players, to not be a mentor/father figure teaching right and wrong like so many other coaches feel, but just cant sit there tonight. Which is unfortunate as I really wanted to celebrate JB the coach and all hes accomplished. I'll be back I'm sure in a couple games when this is all in the rear view mirror more and then will join in on celebrating JB the coach. Just cant do it tonight.