sorry but coaching is a problem

[manleyzoo]

Williams didn't retire by choice and neither did Bowden and if we're still hanging out on the bubble for the next 2 or 3 years than neither will JB.

Unless you know something from the inside that Williams was pushed out, here's what he said two years ago: Williams was "really tired" when he got out of coaching. "I don’t know if there’s ever a right time" to retire, he told Sporting News. "I was really tired. I wasn’t feeling particularly well when I got out. Maryland was a job … there’s a lot of ups and downs there, and I don’t want to get into reasons why, but there were just things that made it an inconsistent job. I had to work very hard because I was in a good league, and you were always measured on what Carolina and what Duke did."

Maybe by "inconsistent job" he meant he'd been forced out. Maybe not. Bowden apparently was forced out but he was 79 and in three of his last four years they were 7-6. Zero chance Boeheim gets forced out for being on the bubble. As long as attendance stays relatively close to what it is and the program is still bringing in the bucks, the bubble isn't very important.

 

[UnknownOrange]

The problem with the SU pick and roll is that it isn't run correctly. It was open a lot last night, just like every game. It can't be half-asked, it needs to be run with conviction and the guards have to occasionally pass the ball to the roller.

Agreed but if you can trust Chukwu to set the perfect screen, roll, catch the ball while moving, dribble, and score then I have a bridge to sell ya

 

[chugg21]

Unless you know something from the inside that Williams was pushed out, here's what he said two years ago: Williams was "really tired" when he got out of coaching. "I don’t know if there’s ever a right time" to retire, he told Sporting News. "I was really tired. I wasn’t feeling particularly well when I got out. Maryland was a job … there’s a lot of ups and downs there, and I don’t want to get into reasons why, but there were just things that made it an inconsistent job. I had to work very hard because I was in a good league, and you were always measured on what Carolina and what Duke did."

Maybe by "inconsistent job" he meant he'd been forced out. Maybe not. Bowden apparently was forced out but he was 79 and in three of his last four years they were 7-6. Zero chance Boeheim gets forced out for being on the bubble. As long as attendance stays relatively close to what it is and the program is still bringing in the bucks, the bubble isn't very important.

Maryland became a bubble team, missing it 4 of his last 7 years, had 13+ losses in 5 of those 7. He then attempted to sabotage the hiring of his replacement per the AD. All of that doesn't really add up as a guy that was leaving on his own terms.

 

[SkyTopBus44]

Maryland became a bubble team, missing it 4 of his last 7 years, had 13+ losses in 5 of those 7. He then attempted to sabotage the hiring of his replacement per the AD. All of that doesn't really add up as a guy that was leaving on his own terms.

Sabotaging his replacement? hmmmm

 

[manleyzoo]

Maryland became a bubble team, missing it 4 of his last 7 years, had 13+ losses in 5 of those 7. He then attempted to sabotage the hiring of his replacement per the AD. All of that doesn't really add up as a guy that was leaving on his own terms.

Sabotaging his replacement, missing the tournament, doubt digit losses for a number of seasons, the poster boy for the bubble...it's got a familiar ring to it. Still don't think Boeheim will be forced out but the game has passed him by. I'm an old guy and know for certain that it takes one to know one. You think you can do it but you really can't.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Speaking of Maryland I read their message board and I swear it feels like seeing our future.

HOF coach retires, hire his replacement, replacement does a "meh" job, message board wants him burned at the stake.

 

[Ghost]

I love Moyer's passion, but man, he has no ability and very little quickness. His footwork is terrible and he just doesn't move laterally well at all. Is he a Syracuse Center in a forward body? He's get up well when going straight up, but I think he struggles to cover any ground quickly on the perimeter. I just don't know what to expect about him for 3 more years; does he have the ability to make up for his deficiencies? He looks like the type that would do much better at a mid-major, maybe an Ohio or Toledo type. We'll see.

I struggle with him as well. I mean, he's got two years in the program now...this is how much development we have from a decently rated prospect? I've said before I think by year 4 he'll be a bit of a glue guy, but maybe not the right time to be recruiting some of these types. Or maybe it's ideal if Jimmy is staying 4 years. Who knows. Anyway, our ability to develop players isn't going all that well. Christmas didn't really develop until he went away after his Junior year if I recall. I mean, players seem to either leave early, or regress. Roberson went down, down, down...Howard seems to be getting better...probably some others, but our track record ain't so hot of late with development. I guess maybe we can develop guards a little, but forwards/centers, ooooouch.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Coach K had to get one and done's and under Boeheim he has changed his defense. It helps that Duke Basketball pretty much operates as its own entity within the University.

Roy Williams doesn't get NBA talent anymore. They go down the road to Durham. He gets guys who may have potential to play pro after a few years of seasoning, but more than often don't.

K switching to zone defense kills all those old arguments about how "real teams" (i.e. "real men") play man to man and impose their will on the opponent. I guess the guy with the most wins all-time doesn't agree after working with Boeheim for the last 12 years.

 

[Alsacs]

Speaking of Maryland I read their message board and I swear it feels like seeing our future.

HOF coach retires, hire his replacement, replacement does a "meh" job, message board wants him burned at the stake.

Maryland hired the wrong guy.
They hired a coach from Texas A&M where there are no expectations and was a Kansas guy without ties to the Northeast and gave him a rebuild without connections to the area. Maryland had expectations. Maryland didn’t have Hop available like we did.

Dumb hire by Maryland. They wanted Sean Miller but couldn’t get him.

 

[Newhouser]

Could this just a generational thing? Millennials are known not to take criticism well and JB obviously will get in your face when you mess up.

Here in Minnesota with the TWolves, Coach Thibodou has had issues communicating and motivating Andrew Wiggins and Karl Anthony Towns with his yelling and direct criticism toward them. While Tibs gets along great with Jimmy Butler who has an old school attitude and great work ethic. Tibs worked for many years with Coach K and JB with USA basketball and follows the yell/direct approach but many of his critics wonder if that method works well with today's young players. Many SU needs to do more research when recruiting into which players can handle being told when they screw up and that they aren't the next Lebron.

I think there is something to that. The millennials and yelling at least.

 

[Dinkyspond]

Personnel and roster construction is 100% JB's authority and responsibility. How can we give JB a free pass due to personnel issues? That's literally more than 50% of his job.

One thing people don't like to think about, and rarely say on here, is that a significant reason for the depleted rosters due to early departures is because of JB. Even if Tyus Battle was considering coming back for his junior season, do you really think he would want to come back to play zone and get yelled at by a 74 year old man? I don't get why so many people are shocked when guys like MCW, Ennis, Grant, McCullough, Malachi, Lydon, and soon to be Battle, leave early. While draft-able guys stay at UNC 3-4 years.

They would not have come to Syracuse in the first place if everything you say is true.

 

[orangemass]

Stubborn.

 

[Lucid]

JB got more out of this team than most other coaches would have.

This is the talent we have. 3 legitimate scoring options, injuries to Sidibe and Moyer, departures of Thorpe and Thompson, and all people want is Boeheim's head on a pike.

He's good at what he does. When we have players, he'll have them back in the dance, and when he retires we'll be sorry he's gone.

 

[Eric15]

Millennials are known not to take criticism well

I feel like the ability or inability to take criticism well is fairly evenly distributed across generational lines.

 

[EastCoast2]

They would not have come to Syracuse in the first place if everything you say is true.

Please explain. Being recruited by a coach is much, much different than playing for a coach. It's why kids quit, transfer, etc. This is true at all levels, in all sports. You don't really know a coach until you're on his team for a few months. It's like speed dating for 10 minutes and getting married, then finding out 6 months later you hate your spouse.

 

[SUfanNC]

BC had great ball movement and got a lot of open looks. You're gonna shoot those looks a lot better than when you're shooting with a man in your face like this team seems to do so often. There doesn't seem to be any attempt to move the ball. A couple token passes and someone jacks one up or drives to the hoop. There are very few passes with purpose. Is it the players ? Is it the coach ? I don't know, probably some combination. But this team does not look well coached on the offensive the end.

Someone with more coaching please comment. I understand our offense style but wonder why we don't pass the ball more.

Beginning of the season we moved the ball great. I understand most of the competition was not as good but I thought we spaced and moved well. In fact when I watch most other teams the ball moves around to either find the mismatch or move the ball to hit the person who gets open.

I feel like as the season goes on we become stagnate. Doing the same things over and over. Also we pigeon hole players and instead of them having 1 or 2 good games that aren't expect from them we give the ball to the safe person on the team. Problem is we should have guys that can play D1 here so I feel like everyone should get an opportunity to see if they are on that night.

I have played organized bball growing up and understand the game but I want to understand if I'm missing some of the nuance of what we do.

 

[chugg21]

JB got more out of this team than most other coaches would have.

This is the talent we have. 3 legitimate scoring options, injuries to Sidibe and Moyer, departures of Thorpe and Thompson, and all people want is Boeheim's head on a pike.

He's good at what he does. When we have players, he'll have them back in the dance, and when he retires we'll be sorry he's gone.

This seems to get posted here a lot. I'd just like to know in which way he got the most out of the team? He literally has physically got the most out of them by playing 3 guys 40 mins a game. In reality though, I don't seem to remember any kind of strategy or anything else that has "got more out of this team" than any other coach would have. He's putting the 5 best (only) guys on the floor and letting them play 1 on 1 basketball for the most part and they win the games where they have a talent advantage and lose the ones that they aren't. Not really sure how any other coach couldn't manage that.

 

[manleyzoo]

This seems to get posted here a lot. I'd just like to know in which way he got the most out of the team? He literally has physically got the most out of them by playing 3 guys 40 mins a game. In reality though, I don't seem to remember any kind of strategy or anything else that has "got more out of this team" than any other coach would have. He's putting the 5 best (only) guys on the floor and letting them play 1 on 1 basketball for the most part and they win the games where they have a talent advantage and lose the ones that they aren't. Not really sure how any other coach couldn't manage that.

One bazillion percent dead on balls accurate.

 

[chugg21]

One bazillion percent dead on balls accurate.

That phrasing made me chuckle.

 

[cuse10]

This seems to get posted here a lot. I'd just like to know in which way he got the most out of the team? He literally has physically got the most out of them by playing 3 guys 40 mins a game. In reality though, I don't seem to remember any kind of strategy or anything else that has "got more out of this team" than any other coach would have. He's putting the 5 best (only) guys on the floor and letting them play 1 on 1 basketball for the most part and they win the games where they have a talent advantage and lose the ones that they aren't. Not really sure how any other coach couldn't manage that.

1 on 1 basketball? They're running sets, screens and motions. It looks like one on one because outside of the two guards, there's a huge lack of skill on the court that makes execution difficult. If it was 1 on 1 and iso ball, you'd be seeing more clear outs. You rarely see that.

 

[bozophobe]

Having an additional 3 point threat would be huge. Hughes might get that respect. If only to reduce having opposing coaches ignore players like Marek or Moyer, and double-teaming the most important player. Hughes or someone else will need the green light from Boeheim, though. And maybe even do that roaming thing that Southerland and Cooney did, which often pressured opponents to use their best defenders on them. Perception matters, and Boeheim's stark, black and white green light / red light system seems to harden that perception. Brissett was awful for a long time, but he retained everyone's respect, and rightly so.

When a player is open, they should be allowed to shoot it. It's a higher percentage shot than any other kind of long shot (fast-break pull-ups, etc.)

Funny, the radio keeps playing that electrical contractor union ad with the Boeheim voiceover-

"Putting an untrained team on the court makes no sense..." Nyuk nyuk

 

[SoBeCuse]

1 on 1 basketball? They're running sets, screens and motions. It looks like one on one because outside of the two guards, there's a huge lack of skill on the court that makes execution difficult. If it was 1 on 1 and iso ball, you'd be seeing more clear outs. You rarely see that.

Eh, maybe a little, especially early in games. But, to me, it seems like that stuff gets scrapped sooner than later and literally is 1-on-1 and pray for the best. There is the requisite Chukwu high ball screen that discombobulates the offense even further but I digress. One thing that really isn’t debateable is that they rarely reverse the ball, probe the other side of the floor, and move a defense. They also waste a lot of time holding the ball and dribbling without any purpose.

 

[OttoMets]

Well... I somewhat agree.

I think he is with the older players, who CLEARLY show out in droves when we play, and all express universally positive sentiment about JB / SU / their time in the program.

My concern is that those guys played for a younger, slightly more mellow, not as crotchety-old-man version of JB, who might be increasingly disconnected from the players in the last 10 years. Not sure that more recent players feel the same as the guys who played for him in the 70s, 80s, 90s, and early 2000s do.

You think he used to be more mellow?

I dunno, I'm with your general point about relationships, but my perception is that Boeheim used to get enraged pretty easily and he's calmed a bit. Guys like Coleman and Seikaly had their problems with him, but then they got older and grew to appreciate him. So I wonder if the younger guys just need to grow up and gain some perspective in order to do the same. (Also, there's the special snowflake hypothesis about these millenials who don't like being criticized by a coach. So maybe some kids just won't warm to that style of teaching.)

 

[raf4488]

Maryland became a bubble team, missing it 4 of his last 7 years, had 13+ losses in 5 of those 7. He then attempted to sabotage the hiring of his replacement per the AD. All of that doesn't really add up as a guy that was leaving on his own terms.

13+ losses in 5 out of 7 years is worse than what we’re dealing with now. The narrative on Gary in those years was he hated the recruiting game and didn’t want to do what it took to land good talent. Whether that was true or not, we don’t have that problem.

Our issue has been roster management, with sanctions magnifying this problem. We are still landing good players and good classes. If we had a fringe top 100 player and a couple of 3 stars coming in next year I would be panicking, but we will have good talent. This season sucked but our inexperienced, injury-riddled 5.5-6 player “rotation” is about to get a lot deeper and a lot more talented.

 

[two3zone]

13+ losses in 5 out of 7 years is worse than what we’re dealing with now. The narrative on Gary in those years was he hated the recruiting game and didn’t want to do what it took to land good talent. Whether that was true or not, we don’t have that problem.

Our issue has been roster management, with sanctions magnifying this problem. We are still landing good players and good classes. If we had a fringe top 100 player and a couple of 3 stars coming in next year I would be panicking, but we will have good talent. This season sucked but our inexperienced, injury-riddled 5.5-6 player “rotation” is about to get a lot deeper and a lot more talented.

We've had 13+ losses 4 out of the last 4 years.