Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker | Page 12 | Syracusefan.com

Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

Honestly if certain characters were killed off I think many people would have really disliked it. I know some diehard friends who would have lost it if chewie actually left haha.

That said... there were definitely characters that were killed off in this trilogy.

Gonna put it in spoilers just to be careful, but who am I missing that's actually of importance to the good guys?

Han: As I mentioned, they didn't even get rid of him as he got to return as a memory.
Luke: Returns as a force ghost that can actually physically do stuff like catch lightsabers.
Leia: Died because she died in real life.
Ben: Is a good guy for 5 minutes before he dies.
Akbar: Has like one line in the entire Star Wars movie saga and the real actor died.
Holdo: Is basically viewed as a bad good guy for the few minutes she's on screen before she does her thing.

There's no real sense of loss with any of that IMO.
 
As if a jedi? He wasn’t like a force ghost. It was just a conversation within Bens mind. He wasn’t REALLY there.
I get that, but it was done in the same manner as Jedis coming back. It could have been just a dialogue. We're smart. We would get that. Felt to me like Ford had some contractual right to be in the movie, and this is how they did it.
 
I get that, but it was done in the same manner as Jedis coming back. It could have been just a dialogue. We're smart. We would get that. Felt to me like Ford had some contractual right to be in the movie, and this is how they did it.
He did not. He wanted out after TFA. JJ called you see if he’d do this.
 
Good movie; I liked it!

GoCuseforce157496140074034156.jpg
 
no I don’t think so. It was simply a memory. They only hint in the films what the novelizations hit hard; killing Han really split Ben in half, crushing his power potential. It was meant to supercharge his dark side powers but it shattered him instead.Snoke makes mention of this in TLJ. I thought it was a good scene here. He was not real. He was a memory in Bens mind, essentially forgiving himself and it was the moment he embraced the light.
I've not read any Star Wars books so it makes sense to me that the film writers would've used what you're referencing to engage the diehards.

I agree it was a good scene and works for many reasons (especially as both a son and father of boys).
 
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Very good discussion of the pros and cons here especially at the 32 minute mark sums up my thoughts.

Went back and watched the last Jedi was able to enjoy it much more knowing the final arc of the story, appreciating the Star Wars movie elements while still disliking some of the major plot points and elements.

While there's a bunch of valid points listed throughout here in this thread, my 2 cents on The rise of sky walker is a repeat of some of the last line or two from my original take.


Sit back relax, suspend your critical eye, go with it and enjoy.

I did the same; re-watched TLJ and also enjoyed it more having seen Episode IX.

My favorite scene of the new trilogy (even before I saw Episode IX) is Ben's execution of Snoke. It was quite the curve ball and added a great twist of not knowing who the ultimate villain was.

To me, that almost saved an otherwise soft Episode VIII.
 
I did the same; re-watched TLJ and also enjoyed it more having seen Episode IX.

My favorite scene of the new trilogy (even before I saw Episode IX) is Ben's execution of Snoke. It was quite the curve ball and added a great twist of not knowing who the ultimate villain was.

To me, that almost saved an otherwise soft Episode VIII.
I hated the Snoke character. I know people say that there's always a mentor/mentee relationship in these things, but with the empire defeated I think it would have been so much more interesting to have Kylo Ren as this dude that turned on his own, that's completely reckless and off the rails trying to figure stuff by himself using whatever he thinks it is his hero Vader would be doing, and despite all that sloppiness it's actually working because other people are following it because they do see his power. Obviously that's not at all how they did it, but I hate the lingering, mysterious big bad that's a puppeteer. It's played out, y'all.
 
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My overall thoughts on the trilogy:

TLDR: I think it was probably a mistake to make this trilogy at all; it seems that they simply didn't have an interesting story to tell, and even if they had one, it probably shouldn't have been confined to three movies, but I guess Star Wars = trilogies or something. A series of movies actually showing what the world is like after the Empire is defeated would have been interesting. Instead, they essentially opted to make a movie series in which the Empire wasn't actually defeated and everything was the same as we had left it in the Empire Strikes Back.

I like some of the ideas that came out of this trilogy. Namely:

1. The concept of Finn's character: a stormtrooper that sees the destruction that he's creating and switches sides to join the rebellion.

2. The idea introduced in TLJ that Rey was just a random person who happened to be strong in the force/the kid at the end that seemed to symbolize that any kid could theoretically be a Jedi.

3. The concept of Kylo's character: child of famous rebels going rogue (don't really care one way or the other if he's ultimately redeemed; I think both could have been interesting if done right).

The issue to me is that it was all executed poorly/rushed and ultimately created 1 unoriginal movie and 2 objectively poorly made movies (1 of which was so bad that it wasn't really even entertaining and 1 of which was still fun to watch despite being poorly made).

In an ideal world, I think this should have been spread out over many more movies.

For example, having Finn leave the FO after his opening scene was a mistake. We should have been introduced to him much slower; seeing his character actually develop over time to the point that he realized he was on the wrong side and then either become a spy from within or leave to join the rebels then.

With Kylo, his entire arc was rushed so much that the payoff basically didn't exist. They basically gave us one flashback to show him go bad; a movie series just about him being trained and gradually snapping would have been more interesting than what we ultimately got (though I suppose you could argue that's basically what the prequel trilogy tried to do and that obviously was poorly done too). Still, I think one flashback scene to explain him snapping and one 5 minute scene to explain him being a total good guy again was a very poor idea.

And regarding the idea that anyone could be a Jedi/Rey represented that, obviously JJ destroyed that with TRoS, but I think that was a very powerful idea that happened to be introduced within a terrible movie.

Beyond those things, Poe probably should have died in the first movie if he ever existed at all. Basically everything involving Poe in the trilogy was poorly done and he probably is part of the reason we didn't get to see a good character arc for the more interesting Finn idea.

There was just way too much involvement of the original trilogy's characters/ripping off of the original trilogy and it was often forced in ways that didn't make sense. This partially resulted in what is maybe my biggest complaint: there was essentially zero stakes in this trilogy. Nothing truly bad really ever happened. Kylo didn't win any fights until he became a good guy. Nobody important truly died; even Han, who should have been legitimately gone, was kept alive as a cheap memory. Chewie was literally blown up by Rey and then they were just like "just kidding, you never saw a second ship, but it definitely exists and that's the one that Chewie was on." They couldn't even let C3PO lose his memory. They couldn't let Poe's love interest that nobody even cared about die when her planet got blown to pieces. They showed us her giving Poe her only ticket off the planet and her refusing to leave and then it gets blown up shortly thereafter but she ended up getting off the planet in between.

They also introduced the ultimate bad guy of the entire trilogy via the opening scroll.

In ROTJ, the empire is defeated; the rebels won. TFA begins and basically that didn't actually happen; the empire is still running everything, just with a new name. The rebels are still trying to topple the empire, just with a new name. TRoS ends and the empire is defeated; the rebels won. How are we supposed to actually care? Is there any reason to believe this time, the empire is actually gone? Or will the next trilogy in the Skywalker saga just be like "Honestly, we thought this place was the only secret Sith planet, but there was actually another one and now Palpatine is a jar of goo sitting on that planet running The Second Last Order from there".

All in all, they just never really gave us a reason to care about these movies aside from the fact that it's Star Wars and we like Star Wars. I was still able to enjoy 2/3 movies but they were enjoyed from the angle of being a mindless action flick rather than being actual good movies.

Great post, Melancer. A couple of stream of consciousness thoughts [not directly connected to yours]:

Overall, I thought Episode IX was fine -- much better than VIII -- and I wonder if some of the structural flaws came from having to cram too much into one movie, to steer things back to a more coherent plot line and make up for the time that was squandered in the preceding film. That might explain why things felt rushed, why new elements were introduced but not fully explained, etc.

At the macro level, I wonder why this trilogy was even made. I get it commercially -- Disney wanted to assert their "ownership" of the franchise, take things in a new direction, and sell a few billion in toys to an indoctrinated next generation of fans.

But ultimately, I question whether the story was compelling enough to warrant a trilogy. Even setting aside how abysmally bad TLJ was, episodes VII and IX felt like they had paper thin plots.

It reminds me A LOT of the Star Trek reboot -- which is no coincidence, since JJ was involved in that reboot -- it was entertaining and fun to watch, but when you step back and examine the film there wasn't much substance. I felt the same way about TFA -- I could set aside it being a semi-frame by frame remake of Episode IV, because it was fun to have the franchise back, and it "proved" that the story could move forward with a new collection of characters, but at the end of the day it was a good not great story.

I thought aspects of the ENTIRE trilogy were incredibly ham-fisted -- example, when they boarded the star destroyer to rescue Chewie. No plan, blast your way in and out, we can't fail as long as we work together. Very lazy story telling, IMO. Ditto the cheesball class warfare theme in Episode VIII.

Were the Sith on that hidden planet even real? I assumed watching the film that they were just apparitions.

Also not sure how the Emperor was able to build a fleet -- I get that he had decades to do it in seclusion, but how? Resources, workers, facilities, etc. It was a cool plot element lifted from the non-canon novels, but not explained. Here's potentially why.

I know that there will be some who disagree about what I have to say about TLJ above -- I just know that I walked out of the theater with favorable impressions of VII and IX and was entertained, and that distinctly wasn't the case with VIII. I think / believe that Rian Johnson blew it, and squandered 1/3 of this set of film's opportunity to tell a compelling story -- and I think JJ had a lot to overcome to right the ship this last film. Really, it almost seems like IX glossed over the events of VIII for the most part, save for a few elements.

Ultimately, I wonder if the future of this franchise is more television based / long format. The Mandalorian proves that you can tell a longer, more in-depth story without sacrificing production value. And several of the cartoons have introduced backstory to things like the Clone Wars, what happened between Episode III and IV, etc. and have clearly had a strong influence over the style, canon history, etc.

And at the end of the day, I recognize that nobody -- no writer, no director, no actors -- will ever quite capture the magic that the first film had. In 1977, nobody had ever seen anything like it before. The challenge is that the young auidence that got hooked back then are no longer kids -- they want the magic, but are now viewing the films through the lens of being adults, and finding it lacking. And meanwhile, the point has always been to sell lots and lots of toys.
 
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I hated the Snoke character. I know people say that there's always a mentor/mentee relationship in these things, but with the empire defeated I think it would have been so much more interesting to have Kylo Ren as this dude that turned on his own, that's completely reckless and off the rails trying to figure stuff by himself using whatever he thinks it is his hero Vader would be doing, and despite all that sloppiness it's actually working because other people are following it because they do see his power. Obviously that's not at all how they did it, but I hate the lingering, mysterious big bad that's a puppeteer. It's played out, y'all.

I think that the Snoke character COULD have been cool, if they'd fleshed it out more. The concept of using a force adept but non-Sith character could have been VERY interesting and taken things in a slightly different direction than past films.

Where was he from? What were his motivations? How could he use the force so powerfully if he wasn't a jedi / sith? How did he rise to power? How did he ensnare Kylo Ren?

To have him seem extremely powerful in VII, easily killed in VIII, and then revealed to be nothing more than a puppet in IX made it pointless and un-worthwhile, IMO.
 
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Gonna put it in spoilers just to be careful, but who am I missing that's actually of importance to the good guys?

Han: As I mentioned, they didn't even get rid of him as he got to return as a memory.
Luke: Returns as a force ghost that can actually physically do stuff like catch lightsabers.
Leia: Died because she died in real life.
Ben: Is a good guy for 5 minutes before he dies.
Akbar: Has like one line in the entire Star Wars movie saga and the real actor died.
Holdo: Is basically viewed as a bad good guy for the few minutes she's on screen before she does her thing.

There's no real sense of loss with any of that IMO.
Whoa, time out. By comparison, was there any real sense of loss in the original trilogy?

Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin: All return as force ghosts.
Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru: Ironically, that’s a staple of Disney movies.

That leaves a few pilots and a bunch of Ewoks. (And everyone on Alderaan, but I’m guessing blowing up entire planets doesn’t count.)
 
I think that the Snoke character COULD have been cool, if they'd fleshed it out more. The concept of using a force adept but non-Sith character could have been VERY interesting and taken things in a slightly different direction than past films.

To have him seem extremely powerful in VII, easily killed in VIII, and then revealed to be nothing more than a puppet in IX made it pointless and un-worthwhile, IMO.
The Emperor got a lot less in the original trilogy.
 
The Emperor got a lot less in the original trilogy.

True, but the Emperor wasn't the only Sith in the original trilogy, and far less prominent as a menacing figure than Vader.
 
The Emperor got a lot less in the original trilogy.
But episodes 1-3 were always going to show how the emperor won.

Disney when they bought Star Wars should have done a stand alone film as basically a Star Wars 6.5 film and laid the foundation for this trilogy.

TFA was basically A New Hope 2.0 and the payoff for the trilogy was garbage.
 
Whoa, time out. By comparison, was there any real sense of loss in the original trilogy?

Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin: All return as force ghosts.
Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru: Ironically, that’s a staple of Disney movies.

That leaves a few pilots and a bunch of Ewoks. (And everyone on Alderaan, but I’m guessing blowing up entire planets doesn’t count.)

That's all fine, but the stakes felt much more real in the original story since it felt like they had actually won by the end of it. Basically just hitting the reset button for the new trilogy and giving us the same plot (even down to the same enemy dying the same way) leaves me asking myself if they really accomplished anything at all in the new movies.

Edit: I also think the prequels actually help in that sense as it gives more backstory to the rise of the empire in the first place.
 
That's all fine, but the stakes felt much more real in the original story since it felt like they had actually won by the end of it. Basically just hitting the reset button for the new trilogy and giving us the same plot (even down to the same enemy dying the same way) leaves me asking myself if they really accomplished anything at all in the new movies.

Edit: I also think the prequels actually help in that sense as it gives more backstory to the rise of the empire in the first place.
OK, but isn’t that a separate point? We were talking about character deaths.
 
But episodes 1-3 were always going to show how the emperor won.

Disney when they bought Star Wars should have done a stand alone film as basically a Star Wars 6.5 film and laid the foundation for this trilogy.

TFA was basically A New Hope 2.0 and the payoff for the trilogy was garbage.
They’re more or less doing that with The Mandalorian. I know, I know, after the fact, but we’re talking about a series that began with Episode IV.
 
OK, but isn’t that a separate point? We were talking about character deaths.

The character deaths was a part of my point about the lack of stakes involved.
 
i think you guys are all nuts.

its a childrens tale.

its cops and robbers.

cowboys and indians.

if you want real sci-fi...go watch Interstellar.

just sit back and enjoy the ride.

and DO NOT go to DisneyWorld.

i DO NOT want your sorry arses in line before me for anything.
 
for most of us who were 10-20 when star wars came out this was a great ride to relive some of that memory.

the originals had tons of plot holes, bad acting, bad effects. but it created a feeling that most had never found in a movie

I would guess 75% of the fan base has never read the books or seen the other shows. I never have.

I would guess 75% of the people going have no idea what does or doesnt connect beyond the basic high level stuff.

If movie 7 had come out without the other 6 it would not have generated the same buzz but it would have been seen in different light and 8 probably wouldnt have gotten the same hate by some

I enjoyed all 3, hope we get a few more. I got to enjoy it with my kids and there isnt much else I watched from the 80s i can say that about.. (TOP GUN)

will any movies made in 2000 came back in 2040 and advance the story and be as loved?

I never dreamed as a kid I would get to continue with characters twice and this was better than 1-2-3 and they were fine as a series just not to the same level as 4-5-6.

I hope we get another SOLO movie, Rogue Movie, and I wouldnt be surprised if they come up with a 10 in the next decade.
 
for most of us who were 10-20 when star wars came out this was a great ride to relive some of that memory.

the originals had tons of plot holes, bad acting, bad effects. but it created a feeling that most had never found in a movie

I would guess 75% of the fan base has never read the books or seen the other shows. I never have.

I would guess 75% of the people going have no idea what does or doesnt connect beyond the basic high level stuff.

If movie 7 had come out without the other 6 it would not have generated the same buzz but it would have been seen in different light and 8 probably wouldnt have gotten the same hate by some

I enjoyed all 3, hope we get a few more. I got to enjoy it with my kids and there isnt much else I watched from the 80s i can say that about.. (TOP GUN)

will any movies made in 2000 came back in 2040 and advance the story and be as loved?

I never dreamed as a kid I would get to continue with characters twice and this was better than 1-2-3 and they were fine as a series just not to the same level as 4-5-6.

I hope we get another SOLO movie, Rogue Movie, and I wouldnt be surprised if they come up with a 10 in the next decade.


I kinda agree with this. Just got back. Not a fanatic about this series at all, but the crappy Disney stuff (Lando, Hans, WEDGE!) I went for. It was a nice day.
 
Kylo Ren is your favorite character? Why? Again, he killed his father, who happened to by Han Freaking Solo, as a sacrifice to gain power.

Unless he was possessed I don't care what he did in the third act of this movie, you can't wipe that off the ledger.


Someone's touchy about killing his father, I see.

You, sir, are no movie bad guy.
 
My overall thoughts on the trilogy:

TLDR: I think it was probably a mistake to make this trilogy at all; it seems that they simply didn't have an interesting story to tell, and even if they had one, it probably shouldn't have been confined to three movies, but I guess Star Wars = trilogies or something. A series of movies actually showing what the world is like after the Empire is defeated would have been interesting. Instead, they essentially opted to make a movie series in which the Empire wasn't actually defeated and everything was the same as we had left it in the Empire Strikes Back.

I like some of the ideas that came out of this trilogy. Namely:

1. The concept of Finn's character: a stormtrooper that sees the destruction that he's creating and switches sides to join the rebellion.

2. The idea introduced in TLJ that Rey was just a random person who happened to be strong in the force/the kid at the end that seemed to symbolize that any kid could theoretically be a Jedi.

3. The concept of Kylo's character: child of famous rebels going rogue (don't really care one way or the other if he's ultimately redeemed; I think both could have been interesting if done right).

The issue to me is that it was all executed poorly/rushed and ultimately created 1 unoriginal movie and 2 objectively poorly made movies (1 of which was so bad that it wasn't really even entertaining and 1 of which was still fun to watch despite being poorly made).

In an ideal world, I think this should have been spread out over many more movies.

For example, having Finn leave the FO after his opening scene was a mistake. We should have been introduced to him much slower; seeing his character actually develop over time to the point that he realized he was on the wrong side and then either become a spy from within or leave to join the rebels then.

With Kylo, his entire arc was rushed so much that the payoff basically didn't exist. They basically gave us one flashback to show him go bad; a movie series just about him being trained and gradually snapping would have been more interesting than what we ultimately got (though I suppose you could argue that's basically what the prequel trilogy tried to do and that obviously was poorly done too). Still, I think one flashback scene to explain him snapping and one 5 minute scene to explain him being a total good guy again was a very poor idea.

And regarding the idea that anyone could be a Jedi/Rey represented that, obviously JJ destroyed that with TRoS, but I think that was a very powerful idea that happened to be introduced within a terrible movie.

Beyond those things, Poe probably should have died in the first movie if he ever existed at all. Basically everything involving Poe in the trilogy was poorly done and he probably is part of the reason we didn't get to see a good character arc for the more interesting Finn idea.

There was just way too much involvement of the original trilogy's characters/ripping off of the original trilogy and it was often forced in ways that didn't make sense. This partially resulted in what is maybe my biggest complaint: there was essentially zero stakes in this trilogy. Nothing truly bad really ever happened. Kylo didn't win any fights until he became a good guy. Nobody important truly died; even Han, who should have been legitimately gone, was kept alive as a cheap memory. Chewie was literally blown up by Rey and then they were just like "just kidding, you never saw a second ship, but it definitely exists and that's the one that Chewie was on." They couldn't even let C3PO lose his memory. They couldn't let Poe's love interest that nobody even cared about die when her planet got blown to pieces. They showed us her giving Poe her only ticket off the planet and her refusing to leave and then it gets blown up shortly thereafter but she ended up getting off the planet in between.

They also introduced the ultimate bad guy of the entire trilogy via the opening scroll.

In ROTJ, the empire is defeated; the rebels won. TFA begins and basically that didn't actually happen; the empire is still running everything, just with a new name. The rebels are still trying to topple the empire, just with a new name. TRoS ends and the empire is defeated; the rebels won. How are we supposed to actually care? Is there any reason to believe this time, the empire is actually gone? Or will the next trilogy in the Skywalker saga just be like "Honestly, we thought this place was the only secret Sith planet, but there was actually another one and now Palpatine is a jar of goo sitting on that planet running The Second Last Order from there".

All in all, they just never really gave us a reason to care about these movies aside from the fact that it's Star Wars and we like Star Wars. I was still able to enjoy 2/3 movies but they were enjoyed from the angle of being a mindless action flick rather than being actual good movies.


I read an article that talked about George's thoughts on the final 3 movies that he left to Disney, and that they threw in the trash.

George's idea was to go explain what The Force really was - remember that we started Episode 1 with the young boy with the insane Midichlorian count?


So, George says that Midicholorians are the plankton of deep space, fed on by invisible beings called The Whills (get it? the "will" - this is what really controls the universe. It's kind of like the Greek Fates, or the Oracle of Delphi ...) .
He could have gone a lot of ways with that, and I think that whatever George did (1) it would have been way more original than what Disney delivered, and (2) you wouldn't think it would be possible, but Lucas movies 7-9 would have had even worse dialogue than the actual Disney releases! LOL
 

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