SU players who transferred thread

[benjams77]

Jimmy is not a point forward. He's just not. He may be able to assist in breaking the press, but he's not a point forward. He doesn't direct the offense in half-court sets, and he's not the primary ballhandler bringing the ball up.

He's far more skilled than I initially gave him credit for, but can we please just stop with anointing these kids as more than they are? PLEASE??!!!

Point forward - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Generally, teams employ a point forward when their best playmaker is a forward[1][2][3] rather than a guard.[1] A point forward is typically responsible for bringing the ball up the court and being the primary facilitator on offense to generate assists,[4][1][2] but they may merely direct play once a guard brings the ball up-court.

We will see.. I have coached HS hoops for a while and i've seen lots of new generation players... Jimmy is our best playmaking forward and it will show this year...Swider is a shooter with decent bounce.. Jimmy has good vision, defers in scoring, but can back a guy down and get his own and stretch the floor... Marek was great against the press and could drive the ball but he wasn't the most skilled forward...He impacted a game thru his high motor... If he was as skilled as Jimmy with his motor and being athletic he would have been even better... Im telling you its a feel... Just like Rautins had as a young guy when he came in and people were like he's a slow white guy, non athletic and can't play here and he just had "it"...a great feel to know how to play the game ...Jimmy has that... He'll impact the game more than any guy this year.. Buddy will score and Swider will score and Jesse will raise our Defense up but Jimmy will do a little of everything

 

[two3zone]

QG is in the rarified air of an SU starter, transferring out to another program. Most (all?) of SU transfers have had easily understood issues revolving around minutes/starting.

Guerrier may have given an honest assessment of his reasoning behind his move but it doesn't mean SU fans have to like it. QG is saying he left to go Oregon to chase a miniscule chance at an NBA career. And it looks like QG gave up starter minutes at SU and a run in the NCAAT to do it. That's not a good look for SU (or for him really). You can appreciate what QG did at SU and hope this ridiculous move to Oregon does not pay off with an NBA career.

It's much easier to accept this when you like the current group of players. But, I think I will miss QG. I think he would have fit in great with this team. He could have been the true power forward at the college level. A beast on the boards and clean up basket duty. I think QG is better than Jimmy at this function and it would have buried Benny. But those would have been issues for down the line.

With all due respect Q is averaging 30 minutes a game for a top 15 team so I’m not sure he “gave up starter minutes and a run in the ncaat”.

 

[Dmcnabbrules]

Speaking of guys who transferred BJ Johnson is on team USA for FIBA games.

 

[two3zone]

QG is definitely not clearly better than Jimmy at this point...At best I think there pretty even in ability... each having there own strengths... Jimmy provides Cuse with something that they have not had recently to help the offense and thats a Point forward who can draw defenses and make decisions to help the fluidity of the offense... QG was not a that... The ball stuck with him like many of our recent players... Successful basketball has transitioned to more open space concept ...i.e. the warriors... and Jimmy is a better fit for that system... QG is a little more athletic but he didn't even away with athleticism...JAB knew what he was doing letting QG go and bringing in Jimmy...Its funny that JAB complimented Babers on changing his style...JAB has done that recently and transitioned away from super athletic kids to more shooting with spacing and ball movement and seems to be bringing in higher basketball IQ kids ... Swider, Benny, Jesse, Torrance, Jimmy all seem to fit that bill

With all due respect, has Jimmy brought the ball up once this year? What makes him a point forward?

 

[HOFCeluck]

QG is definitely not clearly better than Jimmy at this point...At best I think there pretty even in ability... each having there own strengths... Jimmy provides Cuse with something that they have not had recently to help the offense and thats a Point forward who can draw defenses and make decisions to help the fluidity of the offense... QG was not a that... The ball stuck with him like many of our recent players... Successful basketball has transitioned to more open space concept ...i.e. the warriors... and Jimmy is a better fit for that system... QG is a little more athletic but he didn't even away with athleticism...JAB knew what he was doing letting QG go and bringing in Jimmy...Its funny that JAB complimented Babers on changing his style...JAB has done that recently and transitioned away from super athletic kids to more shooting with spacing and ball movement and seems to be bringing in higher basketball IQ kids ... Swider, Benny, Jesse, Torrance, Jimmy all seem to fit that bill

Point forward? Tobias Harris call out imo.

 

[HOFCeluck]

With all due respect, has Jimmy brought the ball up once this year? What makes him a point forward?

He likes painted rocks.

 

[RF2044]

Sometimes, the individual pieces add up to more than the individual parts alone.

Guerrier was terrific. But Swider / JB3 are better fits with the personnel on hand. We pivoted nicely there.

Agree 100% with AZorange above pointing out that Kadary was a PERFECT fit for our system -- including how his physical attributes fit into our defensive system [vs potentially getting exposed playing M2M -- remains to be seen how that will work out in the end]. Very sorry to see him transfer, because I think he would have helped this team. A lot. Opinions to the contrary are rationalization, IMO. But water under the bridge now.

Also think that Woody would have been fantastic here. But his impatience drove him away, and we ended up with guys who are great system fits to replace him. Doing what's best for #1 works both ways.

 

[Fat tire 13]

Couple of random thoughts here

-Kadary struggling is the most surprising. He looked like he could have thrived with more minutes, and seems like he regressed defensively (please don't blame zone for that). Carey and Goodine struggling is not a shock at all. They were over-ranked in high school and turned out to be not as talented as advertised

-The following statements are not mutually exclusive. JB can get more out of players. JB does not do a good job of encouraging players to stay when they are discouraged

-Most importantly, as someone who watches every Cuse game, but not a ton of other games. What are these stats like overall for all colleges? Feels like players all over get caught up in the "grass is greener" mentality, and you could see similar results for most other transfers nationally

Very interested in getting thoughts from the more knowledgeable posters on the last point

 

[CuseFaninVT]

We will see.. I have coached HS hoops for a while and i've seen lots of new generation players... Jimmy is our best playmaking forward and it will show this year...Swider is a shooter with decent bounce.. Jimmy has good vision, defers in scoring, but can back a guy down and get his own and stretch the floor... Marek was great against the press and could drive the ball but he wasn't the most skilled forward...He impacted a game thru his high motor... If he was as skilled as Jimmy with his motor and being athletic he would have been even better... Im telling you its a feel... Just like Rautins had as a young guy when he came in and people were like he's a slow white guy, non athletic and can't play here and he just had "it"...a great feel to know how to play the game ...Jimmy has that... He'll impact the game more than any guy this year.. Buddy will score and Swider will score and Jesse will raise our Defense up but Jimmy will do a little of everything

With all due respect, that's all fine. Running the offense through a guy still doesn't make him a point forward. And there will be plenty of possessions where Jimmy doesn't actually touch the ball at all. Which is what a point forward would actually do.

 

[HOFCeluck]

But water under the bridge now.

Much of which he seems to be retaining these days, so maybe for the best.

 

[DoctahLexus]

With all due respect Q is averaging 30 minutes a game for a top 15 team so I’m not sure he “gave up starter minutes and a run in the ncaat”.

Oregon did just get absolutely manhandled by BYU though. They lost some guys and might not be all that this year.

 

[br801]

Couple of random thoughts here

-Kadary struggling is the most surprising. He looked like he could have thrived with more minutes, and seems like he regressed defensively (please don't blame zone for that). Carey and Goodine struggling is not a shock at all. They were over-ranked in high school and turned out to be not as talented as advertised

-The following statements are not mutually exclusive. JB can get more out of players. JB does not do a good job of encouraging players to stay when they are discouraged

-Most importantly, as someone who watches every Cuse game, but not a ton of other games. What are these stats like overall for all colleges? Feels like players all over get caught up in the "grass is greener" mentality, and you could see similar results for most other transfers nationally

Very interested in getting thoughts from the more knowledgeable posters on the last point

With all due respect, JB has historically encouraged many discouraged and impatient players to stay.

 

[Fat tire 13]

With all due respect, JB has historically encouraged many discouraged and impatient players to stay.

Good point - I agree he has at times. Making blanket statement on that subject is not fair.

The question how much was JB himself instead of the assistants. For example, many players on the Devo podcast reference Hopkins as the guy who supported them when they were frustrated.

With the transfers picking up the past few years, and JB's comments on Kadary recently, that ability to keep guys seems to have diminished. Again, it could be times have changed, but you can definitely see some evidence.

 

[rrlbees]

With all due respect, Jimmy is not a point forward. He's just not. He may be able to assist in breaking the press, but he's not a point forward. He doesn't direct the offense in half-court sets, and he's not the primary ballhandler bringing the ball up.

He's far more skilled than I initially gave him credit for, but can we please just stop with anointing these kids as more than they are? PLEASE??!!!

Point forward - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Generally, teams employ a point forward when their best playmaker is a forward[1][2][3] rather than a guard.[1] A point forward is typically responsible for bringing the ball up the court and being the primary facilitator on offense to generate assists,[4][1][2] but they may merely direct play once a guard brings the ball up-court.

Using that as a strict definition there are no point forwards anywhere. I can’t think of one SU player ever nor any player anywhere off the top of my head that a forward was the best ball handler, was responsible for bringing the ball up court and facilitate the offense. That player doesn’t exist unless we’re talking Magic. Historically when people have used the term point forward they have typically used it generally for a player that helped doing those things when needed and was a good passer who the offense would run through often to make the right pass to the right player/place. That definition takes the term point forward too literally.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Using that as a strict definition there are no point forwards anywhere. I can’t think of one SU player ever nor any player anywhere off the top of my head that a forward was the best ball handler, was responsible for bringing the ball up court and facilitate the offense. That player doesn’t exist unless we’re talking Magic. Historically when people have used the term point forward they have typically used it generally for a player that helped doing those things when needed and was a good passer who the offense would run through often to make the right pass to the right player/place. That definition takes the term point forward too literally.

With all due respect, Lebron would be a great example actually.

Being a contributor on offense is not akin to being a Point Forward.

The definition also allows for someone else to bring the ball up, but the offense runs primarily through the Point Forward - Lebron, Bird, Magic, etc. AD has done it from time to time as well. Or to be the principal ball handler and bring the ball up. But Jimmy hasn't shown that in the games I've seen. He has decent ball handling and good passing abilities, but not at that level.

 

[Day2]

Good point - I agree he has at times. Making blanket statement on that subject is not fair.

The question how much was JB himself instead of the assistants. For example, many players on the Devo podcast reference Hopkins as the guy who supported them when they were frustrated.

With the transfers picking up the past few years, and JB's comments on Kadary recently, that ability to keep guys seems to have diminished. Again, it could be times have changed, but you can definitely see some evidence.

In order to encourage some of these players to stay, JB has to want them to stay. It’s possible he was fine with them leaving.

 

[rrlbees]

With all due respect, Lebron would be a great example actually.

Being a contributor on offense is not akin to being a Point Forward.

The definition also allows for someone else to bring the ball up, but the offense runs primarily through the Point Forward - Lebron, Bird, Magic, etc. AD has done it from time to time as well. Or to be the principal ball handler and bring the ball up. But Jimmy hasn't shown that in the games I've seen. He has decent ball handling and good passing abilities, but not at that level.

Look at the players you listed. That definition is an impossible bar to reach unless you’re one of the few best all time. Make me anyone in college that currently does all of that. Nobody. And I didn’t say just be a contributor. The term is used by the typical fan with a much lower bar which doesn’t necessarily include being the person that brings the ball up court all the time and was also the best ball handler. If he had been able to play forward instead of so much center, even tho he even did it some at center, I would have considered Marek as a point forward.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Look at the players you listed. That definition is an impossible bar to reach unless you’re one of the few best all time. Make me anyone in college that currently does all of that. Nobody. And I didn’t say just be a contributor. The term is used by the typical fan with a much lower bar which doesn’t necessarily include being the person that brings the ball up court all the time and was also the best ball handler. If he had been able to play forward instead of so much center, even tho he even did it some at center, I would have considered Marek as a point forward.

I would consider marek as well. I just haven’t seen the same usage from Jimmy. Yet. Respectfully

 

[rrlbees]

I would consider marek as well. I just haven’t seen the same usage from Jimmy. Yet. Respectfully

Ok you agree marek could be considered one. He wasn’t the teams best ball handler and he didn’t always bring the ball up. He helped against pressure sometimes otherwise he didn’t touch the ball until the half court set up. And I wasn’t arguing that Jimmy has displayed as a point forward. Maybe he will some because he might end up playing some high post and having the ball go into him first to make decisions. But he’s not going to be Marek either.

 

[NateW]

With all due respect, why are ppl saying “with all due respect” so much in this thread? It’s weird. Stop it.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I’d be ok with being very restrictive with the term “Point Forward”

With all due respect

 

[4evaOrange]

With all due respect everyone can go kick rocks!

 

[Day2]

 

[SWC75]

How much respect is due? I always wondered about that.

As to Jimmy, I see him as more of a 6-9 Josh Pace than the new Marek.

 

[two3zone]

How much respect is due? I always wondered about that.

As to Jimmy, I see him as more of a 6-9 Josh Pace than the new Marek.

Not sure there is an answer to this.