Symir Torrence…

[Zelda Zonk]

It’s an indictment of the staff they they could only offer “backup minutes” to any guard in the portal. The backcourt has major holes that went unfilled because we couldn’t risk Joe’s billing as PG1.

Yep. Kinda 'funny'—we couldn't/didn't want to recruit over a bubble team's PG... who was expected to only be the backup to a different PG who wasn't good enough to be on the bubble team... That's in the manual for how to remain a bubble team.

 

[OrangeDW]

Yep. Kinda 'funny'—we couldn't/didn't want to recruit over a bubble team's PG... who was expected to only be the backup to a different PG who wasn't good enough to be on the bubble team... That's in the manual for how to remain a bubble team.

He’s looking like the kind of guy who if the team is really good, then he’s fine as the backup PG.

But on a team with a lot of holes, you have to look at a lot of positions as spots we need to get better at.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

He’s looking like the kind of guy who if the team is really good, then he’s fine as the backup PG.

But on a team with a lot of holes, you have to look at a lot of positions as spots we need to get better at.

What impressed me was how the Colgate coach immediately rendered him useless by telling his guys to back 10 feet off him … it usually takes coaches full games before they figure out they should employ such measures

 

[TinyManInside]

I think Symir can be a decent backup if he plays within a really well defined and constrained role. There is some stuff to like here - he's strong, he seems to have a good feel for penetrating, has decent to above average court vision, and moves well on defense (certainly much better than our other guards)... but... he can't shoot. Like, even a little tiny bit. At all. I have no faith in him developing any level of perimeter shooting expertise given how broken his form looks, and when he gets to the basket (which he seems to be able to do quite well) he throws a 30 pound barbell at the backboard. No touch. He has some skills that none of our other guards have but he really needs to play within a very constrained format.

 

[two3zone]

That may be true, but put yourself in his shoes. He's playing in his hometown before his friends and family for one of the greatest college basketball programs and has gone from a reserve role at Marquette to being a key player. That's a bigtime stage and he's still getting it all absorbed. I believe the coaches will get his head straight.

Why was he awful for Marquette?

 

[kcsu]

Why was he awful for Marquette?

If Symir shoots it any worse he'll get his Union Card

 

[HoustonCuse]

I guess Symir is a product of his environment, and I shouldn't take it out on him, but he's a junior and is never going to be anything close to what we have seen upperclassmen guards at SU in the past.

In fact, I dare you to name a worse junior guard in the last 30 years of the program. Louie McCroskey? Josh Wright? Howard Washington?

That's the list. And I think Symir might be the third-best player on that list from a pure basketball standpoint. McCroskey and Wright were headcases but much more talented, IMO. The fourth was a throw in scholarship at the end of a cycle and there were extenuating circumstances surrounding his tenure.

Every other guard that has come through this system has been out in 2 years if they weren't good enough. But this time, we are accepting a guard who clearly isn't good enough to be a major impact because it was easy and we were desperate.

I guess that's more my frustration -- there isn't much there to improve upon from what I can see. You don't see junior point guards in college make huge leaps. He is what he is at this point.

And you look around the country at guys like Kyle Lofton at St. Bonaventure that are so much better than what we have. Look at their roster overall - Adaway, Lofton, Osunniyi, Holmes would all start and play big minutes immediately at SU. It's shocking.

In all seriousness, you are able to draw these conclusions this quickly? Maybe you are right and he’s one of the worst players of all time, I have no idea. It seems like a really dramatic conclusion to come to with such a small amount of data. This time last year, didn’t everyone think AG was the next Gbinije? More data proved he wasn’t. Maybe you’re right about him but this seems like an emotional response at the moment.

 

[Cuse_NYC]

Was also going to post about Symir… my lord. It’s like Jim thought we can just take whoever and still be fine. His jump shot is the worst I can ever remember by an SU guard. Almost as if he is pushing a medicine ball at the hoop. The season is completely over if Joe were to ever be out for a long period of time. I apologize, but a very, very poor addition, when there were PLENTY of good guards in the portal.

 

[CousCuse]

Why was he awful for Marquette?

Shaka pleaded with him to stay.

 

[SUFan44]

In all seriousness, you are able to draw these conclusions this quickly? Maybe you are right and he’s one of the worst players of all time, I have no idea. It seems like a really dramatic conclusion to come to with such a small amount of data. This time last year, didn’t everyone think AG was the next Gbinije? More data proved he wasn’t. Maybe you’re right about him but this seems like an emotional response at the moment.

He’s played 55 college games, and he’s the same.

That’s a lot of games.

Griffin & Hughes showed much more potential in their prior stops. As did basically every other transfer outside Gbinije, but he barely played on a loaded Duke team - so tough to judge.

 

[Melancer46]

It's still plenty early in the season so maybe he'll turn it around. But he's played exactly like you would have expected if you've watched him before. My hopes are low but hoping for the best.

 

[Newhouser]

To be honest, I was expecting James Thues. He’s a serviceable back up. He shouldn’t have to score much with the shooters surrounding him.

This team has much bigger issues than the PG position. It needs better defenders and rebounders, He can help in those areas.

Pearl Washington and Sherman Douglas couldn’t help this team’s weaknessses.

I agree - I think as long as Joe is healthy and processing how he should play, the PG position is not a major detriment. That said I think Symir is going to get spot minutes when the competition stiffens unless we have fouls, injuries or a Joe brain freeze. You can't play guards who don't have to be defended.

 

[Hopkins16]

We need to be Calapari lite - sit back and watch much much lesser programs like Siena, St. Bonaventure, Colgate etc. recruit serviceable and competent players then swoop in and snag them. Those lesser programs are able to identify serviceable college centers and guards while we recruit project centers who can't catch the ball, appear lost, lack coordination and basic basketball skills and who treat our program like a basketball 101 youth camp. Too many quality forwards have been frustrated playing the center position either because we don't have a competent center or no one to backup the injured center.
Since this is about Symir, as an experienced junior, he is no better than a freshman Goodine or Carey and it's not a matter of needing more time.

 

[pearl31]

What impressed me was how the Colgate coach immediately rendered him useless by telling his guys to back 10 feet off him … it usually takes coaches full games before they figure out they should employ such measures

uh or maybe look at like 1 min of video from our games so far this year and immediately realize you want to dare him to shoot?
I'd actually say it would be borderline malpractice for a coaching staff to not have that figured out going into a game.

We don't need Symir to be a scorer. At all. And honestly if anyone was expecting him to be one... you were misinformed and/or deluded

 

[MDCuse]

That may be true, but put yourself in his shoes. He's playing in his hometown before his friends and family for one of the greatest college basketball programs and has gone from a reserve role at Marquette to being a key player. That's a bigtime stage and he's still getting it all absorbed. I believe the coaches will get his head straight.

Marquette had a losing record last year. Symir averaged 13 minutes a game on a team that went 13-14 and averaged 2 points. Now JAB is counting on him to be a major contributor. Do you see the issue here??

 

[two3zone]

We need to be Calapari lite - sit back and watch much much lesser programs like Siena, St. Bonaventure, Colgate etc. recruit serviceable and competent players then swoop in and snag them. Those lesser programs are able to identify serviceable college centers and guards while we recruit project centers who can't catch the ball, appear lost, lack coordination and basic basketball skills and who treat our program like a basketball 101 youth camp. Too many quality forwards have been frustrated playing the center position either because we don't have a competent center or no one to backup the injured center.
Since this is about Symir, as an experienced junior, he is no better than a freshman Goodine or Carey and it's not a matter of needing more time.

Unfortunately some of their roster chose them over us.

 

[pearl31]

Marquette had a losing record last year. Symir averaged 13 minutes a game on a team that went 13-14 and averaged 2 points. Now JAB is counting on him to be a major contributor. Do you see the issue here??

Not. As. A. Scorer.

 

[two3zone]

Not. As. A. Scorer.

What is he good at then. Not hammering the guy but there isn’t much difference between him or Howard Washington. Seems like what you’re doing is when people used to describe a bad hitting catcher and assuming he is a good defender by default. I’m sorry, Symir doesn’t do much well on the court. It is what it is.

 

[MDCuse]

Not. As. A. Scorer.

LOLOLOL 13 minutes. On a 13-14 team. Since he's not a scorer he must contribute in other areas *checks notes* 1.5 apg, 1.4 rpg, .3 spg. Oh.

 

[MDCuse]

What is he good at then. Not hammering the guy but there isn’t much difference between him or Howard Washington. Seems like what you’re doing is when people used to describe a bad hitting catcher and assuming he is a good defender by default. I’m sorry, Symir doesn’t do much well on the court. It is what it is.

BINGO! They got a bigger version of HoWash.

 

[pearl31]

LOLOLOL 13 minutes. On a 13-14 team. Since he's not a scorer he must contribute in other areas *checks notes* 1.5 apg, 1.4 rpg, .3 spg. Oh.

so based on those numbers what were you expecting him to be?
he was brought in as a backup guard who could provide maybe 10m per game as a plus defender, solid ball handler, and adequate initiating halfcourt offense.
seems to me yours/others' expectations with Symir were way out of whack

 

[Melancer46]

uh or maybe look at like 1 min of video from our games so far this year and immediately realize you want to dare him to shoot?
I'd actually say it would be borderline malpractice for a coaching staff to not have that figured out going into a game.

We don't need Symir to be a scorer. At all. And honestly if anyone was expecting him to be one... you were misinformed and/or deluded

If we can't even expect him to make layups, it's very much a problem. When he's on the floor, teams don't really need to defend him or our big man. And if he's on the floor with Benny, that gives teams three different players that they can ignore on the perimeter to send help defenders at Buddy and Joe. Well coached teams will render those sorts of lineups unplayable.

 

[MDCuse]

so based on those numbers what were you expecting him to be?
he was brought in as a backup guard who could provide maybe 10m per game as a plus defender, solid ball handler, and adequate initiating halfcourt offense.
seems to me yours/others' expectations with Symir were way out of whack

My expectations were exactly what we are seeing. A guy who played 13 minutes on a really bad Marquette team. He's doing exactly what he did there. Which is, not much. My issue is the fact that JAB decided that type of guy would be an adequate 3rd guard on this team. I'm sorry, but it's not my expectations that were wrong. Pretty spot on. It's the fact that he's being counted on to contribute. What if Joe or Buddy gets hurt? How are you feeling about the guard rotation at that point??

 

[pearl31]

If we can't even expect him to make layups, it's very much a problem. When he's on the floor, teams don't really need to defend him or our big man. And if he's on the floor with Benny, that gives teams three different players that they can ignore on the perimeter to send help defenders at Buddy and Joe. Well coached teams will render those sorts of lineups unplayable.

the "can't make layups" thing is getting stupid exaggerated - yeah he's missed a couple but he also had nice/athletic follow-ups on his two misses v Colgate, and he's made others in previous games, showing he can drive by defenders. but yeah, it does appear he's still in his head a bit and probably pressing things out there.
Clearly JB's plan for him was to be a in a very limited backup roll as a means for Buddy/Girard rest during a game. nothing more. Now, critique of that plan (i.e. roster construction) is for a different thread

 

[pearl31]

My expectations were exactly what we are seeing. A guy who played 13 minutes on a really bad Marquette team. He's doing exactly what he did there. Which is, not much. My issue is the fact that JAB decided that type of guy would be an adequate 3rd guard on this team. I'm sorry, but it's not my expectations that were wrong. Pretty spot on. It's the fact that he's being counted on to contribute. What if Joe or Buddy gets hurt? How are you feeling about the guard rotation at that point??

I'm not feeling good about the PG situation and overall guard rotation at all, and I voiced that during the offseason. If Girard keeps playing how he is and he and he and Buddy stay healthy, we're fine. As a spot-minutes backup guard, Symir is fine.
If Symir is suddenly needed for big minutes, we're in big trouble.