Symir Torrence…

[Newhouser]

I think the staff thought he would be a low maintenance ( aka - non-complaining) 10- 15 mpg guy. I think that is what they got. Once the "real" games start he is going to get barely double digit minutes barring injury, fouls or JG3 brain freeze.

 

[MDCuse]

I'm not feeling good about the PG situation and overall guard rotation at all, and I voiced that during the offseason. If Girard keeps playing how he is and he and he and Buddy stay healthy, we're fine. As a spot-minutes backup guard, Symir is fine.
If Symir is suddenly needed for big minutes, we're in big trouble.

I think you're a little higher on him still than I am haha. His offensive game is really really bad. When he's in the game, teams are completely ignoring him and that adds extra attention to other scorers. If he and Buddy are on the court together, Buddy is going to get smothered.

 

[Melancer46]

the "can't make layups" thing is getting stupid exaggerated - yeah he's missed a couple but he also had nice/athletic follow-ups on his two misses v Colgate, and he's made others in previous games, showing he can drive by defenders. but yeah, it does appear he's still in his head a bit and probably pressing things out there.
Clearly JB's plan for him was to be a in a very limited backup roll as a means for Buddy/Girard rest during a game. nothing more. Now, critique of that plan (i.e. roster construction) is for a different thread

I do expect that the layup issues against Colgate was at least partially just some bad luck. I have hope that that will improve; it just has to.

 

[DilemaCuse]

hard to not improve on 3-14 shooting on the year

 

[AZOrange]

Maybe you guys should just take a season off…thanks for turning the board into a cesspool after 3 games

 

[UpstateSM]

Too drunk to read all this but Joe’s been our best player

 

[Mareiniss]

I do expect that the layup issues against Colgate was at least partially just some bad luck. I have hope that that will improve; it just has to.

He’s 3-for-13 from inside the arc. I’ve seen every game, including the exhibitions, and he’s been missing layups every game. I think at least two of his makes were on put-backs of his own missed layups. I’m rooting for him to improve,. I think the team needs him to at least make layups.

 

[Cuse_NYC]

What is he good at then. Not hammering the guy but there isn’t much difference between him or Howard Washington. Seems like what you’re doing is when people used to describe a bad hitting catcher and assuming he is a good defender by default. I’m sorry, Symir doesn’t do much well on the court. It is what it is.

Not kidding, he isn’t half the player Howard Washington was…

 

[AlaskaSU]

2020 Marquette, 31.1% from the field, and 13.9% from 3. He is our best ball handler and our poorest shooter.

 

[Cuse181]

Nice change of pace, but I’m not sure how people can watch him play and not understand we need better from that position. He’s the primary backup to essentially both guard positions and even as a backup, he’s not good enough.

Defense and ball handling are fine but you need to be some sort of threat offensively. Even on a team with capable offensive players at other positions. He doesn’t do that, and it’s why he couldn’t play at Marquette and why he isn’t good enough here.

I’m sorry but reality is we need better players.

Why do they need him to a score? You have 4 other players on the floor who can score when he’s in and the guy is replacing might get you 15-20 a night. He is needed for his defense, ball handling and passing, that’s literally why they brought him in.

 

[CousCuse]

2020 Marquette, 31.1% from the field, and 13.9% from 3. He is our best ball handler and our poorest shooter.

Covid year doesn't count for anything else, why should it count against him.

 

[Dcuse]

Why do they need him to a score? You have 4 other players on the floor who can score when he’s in and the guy is replacing might get you 15-20 a night. He is needed for his defense, ball handling and passing, that’s literally why they brought him in.

Yes but if your defender is playing 6 feet off of you and you are 13-17 feet from the basket... you have to be able to stick that shot or our hands are tide as a team on offense.

 

[RF2044]

I think the Howard Washington comparison isn't a bad analogy. He is a bigger, stronger, more athletic version -- but based upon what I've seen thus far [which admittedly is only 5 games, including the preseason games] that appears to be the extent of his P5 capabilities.

Washington was brought in to see if the staff could catch lightning in a bottle [3 star recruit, originally committed to Butler, but a NYS kid]. He showed good lead guard aptitude, but couldn't shoot consistently and wasn't a plus defender in our system [too small]. Could have been a reserve had he stuck around, but wasn't a high level P5 player.

Torrence is different in that he looks like a P5 athlete. Decent handle, but doesn't appear to be anything special as a playmaker. Doesn't appear to be a good defender, and somehow he's even worse offensively than HoWash. Which shouldn't be a surprise, given the two-year data from his time at Marquette. He HAS to play this year, because we only have three guards. But ultimately he appears to be a deep reserve type -- a local kid who is an ideal fourth guard.

I'm not suggesting that he can't / won't improve, but this is year 3 -- I think he is what he is. As a stop-gap, he might be a guy who can play situational big minutes, but as a long-term starter? I think we'd be in big trouble.

And by the way -- he seems like a great kid. Terrific student, very likeable, great interview, highly intelligent kid who will be a great ambassador for the program. Since he's local, I'll be rooting even harder for him to succeed. I am just pragmatic about his skill set and limited ceiling.

 

[AZOrange]

I think the Howard Washington comparison isn't a bad analogy. He is a bigger, stronger, more athletic version -- but based upon what I've seen thus far [which admittedly is only 5 games, including the preseason games] that appears to be the extent of his P5 capabilities.

Washington was brought in to see if the staff could catch lightning in a bottle [3 star recruit, originally committed to Butler, but a NYS kid]. He showed good lead guard aptitude, but couldn't shoot consistently and wasn't a plus defender in our system [too small]. Could have been a reserve had he stuck around, but wasn't a high level P5 player.

Torrence is different in that he looks like a P5 athlete. Decent handle, but doesn't appear to be anything special as a playmaker. Doesn't appear to be a good defender, and somehow he's even worse offensively than HoWash. Which shouldn't be a surprise, given the two-year data from his time at Marquette. He HAS to play this year, because we only have three guards. But ultimately he appears to be a deep reserve type -- a local kid who is an ideal fourth guard.

I'm not suggesting that he can't / won't improve, but this is year 3 -- I think he is what he is. As a stop-gap, he might be a guy who can play situational big minutes, but as a long-term starter? I think we'd be in big trouble.

And by the way -- he seems like a great kid. Terrific student, very likeable, great interview, highly intelligent kid who will be a great ambassador for the program. Since he's local, I'll be rooting even harder for him to succeed. I am just pragmatic about his skill set and limited ceiling.

I don’t understand how you get to this level and cannot knock down a layup much less a 10-15 foot shot

 

[Cusefan0307]

Something happened once he went to Marquette. They must have tried to change his shot and made it worse. There was a reason he was a top 75 recruit. He was a good shooter in hs when I saw him play and I recall games at Vermont Academy where he hit 5 plus threes multiple times.

 

[orangecuse]

Saw a stat the other day that said we were something like 143-95 since the 25-0 start in 2014.

FWIW, there was a thread last season about our record being 73-87 since Ennis left in regards to 'games that matter.' Interpretation...games that weren't against the cupcakes or the likes.

As the season played out, including our Sweet 16 run and loss to Houston, in accordance to same, we ended the year at 83-96. So, there's that.

 

[OrangeDW]

FWIW, there was a thread last season about our record being 73-87 since Ennis left in regards to 'games that matter.' Interpretation...games that weren't against the cupcakes or the likes.

As the season played out, including our Sweet 16 run and loss to Houston, in accordance to same, we ended the year at 83-96. So, there's that.

I made a post in our Battle/Howard era about how we’re basically late career John Chaney Temple.

Legendary coach who is still a great game coach, a program that still has its own identity and style of play…..but is no longer getting the same level of players that it did at its peak. So the ceiling becomes sweet 16 and the norm becomes 14-15 loss seasons.

Now obviously peak Syracuse was both better and longer than peak Temple. But there are a ton of similarities. Chaney didn’t end with a bang. I hope Boeheim finds a way to do so.

* We’ve got a better league, arena/facilities, fan base, and National brand than Temple ever did so hopefully our ability to bounce back as a program is a lot higher, because they have never consistently gotten back to their late 80s-90s- level.

 

[althea]

I don’t understand some of the responses in this thread. Symir was an obvious choice for many reason posted above. I just don’t think there were that many hi major guards that wanted to go to a place where they were not going to get minutes, and JB didn’t want to waste a scholarship on someone that wasn’t going to play.
Symir (and JB) need to figure out a role where he can be useful. I think he can help, but we shall see.

 

[JoeSU]

I think Devo would be a good choice to coach him up on drives to the basket.

 

[Cuseball]

I made a post in our Battle/Howard era about how we’re basically late career John Chaney Temple.

Legendary coach who is still a great game coach, a program that still has its own identity and style of play…..but is no longer getting the same level of players that it did at its peak. So the ceiling becomes sweet 16 and the norm becomes 14-15 loss seasons.

Now obviously peak Syracuse was both better and longer than peak Temple. But there are a ton of similarities. Chaney didn’t end with a bang. I hope Boeheim finds a way to do so.

* We’ve got a better league, arena/facilities, fan base, and National brand than Temple ever did so hopefully our ability to bounce back as a program is a lot higher, because they have never consistently gotten back to their late 80s-90s- level.

I differ a bit on the Chaney/Temple comparison. In Chaney's last 5 years, Temple never made the NCAA's, finished two or less games over .500 four times and the other season finished four games over.500. In total, they were only 11 games over .500 across the five seasons.

Assuming this is Jimmy' last year and assuming we match the worst Cuse record over this span (18-14), we will end up more than 30 games above .500 with 5 NCAA wins and two Sweet Sixteens.

In my opinion, the Temple/Chaney comparison is overly harsh.

Cuse!

 

[Windyfly]

I think Symir is going to be serviceable for us this year and the years to come. Joe’s looking like he’s going to have a huge year and so is Buddy, so all he needs to do is come in and play his game...Bring energy on defense, effectively change the pace on offense, not play out of control, successfully drive into the lane and create for teammates or convert open layups and just limit mistakes. Also if he can hit wide open shots at a semi decent rate, that would be a boost, cuz then teams at least to guard him. I read he shoots as many shots as Buddy does when training, the kid wants to be good and those kids that are so determined to be good, eventually come through. Symir will probably always be a backup point guard at Syracuse, but I think he’s capable of these things I alluded to and even if this is his third year in college, it’s still too early to turn on him in an Orange uniform. I for one, still believe our guys will figure it out. They want to be great and they are all willing to learn and put in the work, including Symir. For me it’s way too early to count him out, I’ll be rooting for him today and as the season goes on.

 

[Sherman20]

Was also going to post about Symir… my lord. It’s like Jim thought we can just take whoever and still be fine. His jump shot is the worst I can ever remember by an SU guard. Almost as if he is pushing a medicine ball at the hoop. The season is completely over if Joe were to ever be out for a long period of time. I apologize, but a very, very poor addition, when there were PLENTY of good guards in the portal.

This. ^^* There was so many good guards in the portal and this is what Jimmy and the staff came up with. SMH.

 

[Sherman20]

Not kidding, he isn’t half the player Howard Washington was…

Disagree on that. Howard Washington wasn’t good at all.

 

[two3zone]

Disagree on that. Howard Washington wasn’t good at all.

What is Symir good at? Howash at least would distribute without looking like a joke. Symir hasn’t done that. We haven’t even played a good team yet.

 

[jncuse]

I differ a bit on the Chaney/Temple comparison. In Chaney's last 5 years, Temple never made the NCAA's, finished two or less games over .500 four times and the other season finished four games over.500. In total, they were only 11 games over .500 across the five seasons.

Assuming this is Jimmy' last year and assuming we match the worst Cuse record over this span (18-14), we will end up more than 30 games above .500 with 5 NCAA wins and two Sweet Sixteens.

In my opinion, the Temple/Chaney comparison is overly harsh.

Cuse!

There is a way to explain that however.

The fall from the "baseline" was probably fairly similar for each coach. Syracuse just had a higher baseline (in particular the 2009-2014 run) than Temple did.