Syracuse hiring Alex Kline as GM

[Consigliere]

Based on what?

Assume alphabetical order unless the poster is at practice every day and has first hand knowledge.

 

[Millhouse]

One of the guys I used to listen to on his podcast years ago did analytics for the NHL. I remember him commenting that 95+% of what they found using analytics was either obvious correlations that everyone already knew, or noise that didn't actually matter. Finding something that was useful to apply in actual gameplay was rare. Analytics departments have evolved into something that has very little actual value - other than the ability of people to break in to sports and show they are "data guys" which is increasingly a requirement to be a GM...teams spend on it because they have to, otherwise they'll be called dinosaurs if the team isn't winning.

If you're not doing the obvious stuff that everyone knows, it's hard for me to believe any of the other stuff is making a difference

 

[pwong]

Kline isn’t tied to Red & staff. Kiyan isn’t tied to Red & staff. Red & staff could all be fired tonight & Kline would remain with Kiyan still joining next year.

GMs are typically tied with the staff unless a new coach wants to retains the previous GM and not hire a new one.

 

[W'boro'Cuse315]

GMs are typically tied with the staff unless a new coach wants to retains the previous GM and not hire a new one.

I’m aware. Kline is a bit of an atypical case being an alum & so highly regarded in basketball circles. I read the article stating that Griffin initially reached out & that Kline visited & met with Red before accepting the job. Based on things I’ve been told, Red was all for adding Kline as the GM but this was Wildhacks’s hire & Kline is not tied to this staff. Kline was on Wildhack’s radar before Griffin reached out. I doubt Red’s here past next season so we’ll see how it shakes out. A new coach (hopefully Hodgson) could certainly choose to bring his own GM but I’m not sure you’re going to find one with a better resumé & fit for SU with his contacts, especially East Coast, than Kline.

Basically, Kline is tied to Wildhack, not Red.

 

[Millhouse]

This is entirely incorrect.

If you say so

 

[Fly Rodder]

If you say so

We've got you dismissing an entire subset of professional sports jobs because you have access to basketball reference and another poster riffing off a podcast interview.

I wouldn't call that strong evidence that nearly every professional sports organization are spending money on analytics for marketing or to appease nerds.

 

[Cusefan95]

We've got you dismissing an entire subset of professional sports jobs because you have access to basketball reference and another poster riffing off a podcast interview.

I wouldn't call that strong evidence that nearly every professional sports organization are spending money on analytics for marketing or to appease nerds.

So - you have strong evidence that sports teams are deriving lots of value from analytics? Like specific examples of success due to analytics uncovering some advantage they couldn’t have found any other way?

That teams are spending money isn’t an indicator it provides value - teams crap away boatloads of money on free agents too.

I worked at a company that had a corporate Operational Excellence division. They were phenomenal at manipulating data in a way that showed the value they provided to the organization. Almost none of it was legitimate, but an empire had been built and was going to defend itself. I suspect analytics in sports is very similar - I’d expect lots of soft “examples” of success that don’t stand up under even mild scrutiny.

 

[GHLF]

That article about Kline actually sold part of this board on keeping Red, I truly can't believe it.

A glorified scout being touted as the savior of the SU program. Jesus wept.

"Jesus Wept" as you used so loosely in a basketball context. That is squarely and soely on you. All respect lost and that has nothing to do with basketball, Red. Be well.

 

[Millhouse]

We've got you dismissing an entire subset of professional sports jobs because you have access to basketball reference and another poster riffing off a podcast interview.

I wouldn't call that strong evidence that nearly every professional sports organization are spending money on analytics for marketing or to appease nerds.

If your team is taking horrible shots with players who can't make them and it's obvious to anyone with the most basic knowledge knows, I'm gonna be skeptical that the analytics work is useful in games


A doctor who doesn't believe in hand washing might do great research but probably not

 

[Fly Rodder]

If your team is taking horrible shots with players who can't make them and it's obvious to anyone with the most basic knowledge knows, I'm gonna be skeptical that the analytics work is useful in games


A doctor who doesn't believe in hand washing might do great research but probably not

That's a coaching problem not an analytics problem.

 

[Fly Rodder]

So - you have strong evidence that sports teams are deriving lots of value from analytics? Like specific examples of success due to analytics uncovering some advantage they couldn’t have found any other way?

That teams are spending money isn’t an indicator it provides value - teams crap away boatloads of money on free agents too.

I worked at a company that had a corporate Operational Excellence division. They were phenomenal at manipulating data in a way that showed the value they provided to the organization. Almost none of it was legitimate, but an empire had been built and was going to defend itself. I suspect analytics in sports is very similar - I’d expect lots of soft “examples” of success that don’t stand up under even mild scrutiny.

Have at it chief. I'm sure you could make a boatload of money consulting to pro sports teams showing them that they're wasting money. You're the one making a sweeping generalization based on your skepticism.

This was ten years ago:

Oliver: Evolution of analytics movement in NBA

Dean Oliver, one of the pioneers of the NBA's analytics movement, offers an insightful overview of how numbers have changed the game and where they might be going.

www.espn.com

How MLB's analytics revolution is getting to clubhouses

Getting players to buy into advanced data isn't just the plotline of "Moneyball" anymore. It has created a whole new role within the locker room.

www.espn.com

The NFL’s Analytics Revolution Has Arrived

Football is still well behind baseball and basketball when it comes to embracing advanced metrics, but teams have made significant progress in recent years. Those who do not adapt will be left behind.

www.theringer.com

None of this is new. These organizations have embraced analytics as a component of how they run their teams. A a result there people, I'm sure like you, complaining that the NBA and MLB sucks because they rely too much on analytics these days and not gut instincts, bubblegum and chewing tobacco?

 

[hoopsupstate]

That would be my plan but it sounds like he's getting a 3rd year no matter which makes no sense but the excuses seem to be mounting up for him.

The only one I like is Straughn too.

It’s ironic he’s the least engaged during games.

 

[Millhouse]

That's a coaching problem not an analytics problem.

Then get rid of the pointless analytics people

 

[Fly Rodder]

Then get rid of the pointless analytics people

I'd get rid of the coaches.

If there's a CFO who can't manage a business, I'm not firing the CPAs they're ignoring.

 

[nyucuse]

"Jesus Wept" as you used so loosely in a basketball context. That is squarely and soely on you. All respect lost and that has nothing to do with basketball, Red. Be well.

It's a figure of speech to convey the state of the program. Please take your dramatic religious sensitivities elsewhere.

 

[GHLF]

It's a figure of speech to convey the state of the program. Please take your dramatic religious sensitivities elsewhere.

I am not interested in your Figurative insensitivity, that is my stance. I am ok with it. Take your own advice.

 

[nyucuse]

I am not interested in your Figurative insensitivity, that is my stance. I am ok with it. Take your own advice.

Clutching my pearls… just messing with you...)

 

[HRE Otto IV]

To me the role sounds a lot like recruiting coordinator with a fancy title. Besides the NIL budgeting aspect, how is it really any different?

 

[Cusefan0307]

To me the role sounds a lot like recruiting coordinator with a fancy title. Besides the NIL budgeting aspect, how is it really any different?

It’s explained in the article that I tagged in this thread that people apparently don’t want to read. He’s involved with more than recruiting coordination.

 

[kirbivore]

To me the role sounds a lot like recruiting coordinator with a fancy title. Besides the NIL budgeting aspect, how is it really any different?

 

[Bulldog04]

I agree and would get rid of Griffin and Englestad, but keep Straughn. Hire some good damn assistants (outside SU family), especially someone that knows about X's and O's on offense and teach defense.

Dan E was SPECIFICALLY brought in here to teach defense. If anyone is gone next year it’s him

 

[Scooch]

I have some skepticism about analytics staff. What are the odds that they're coming up with anything proprietary that's correct? If they're not coming up with anything proprietary, and they could just use basketball reference like the rest of us, then they're probably working on different analytics problems like how to get more money out of people's pockets

I'm thinking of the bills here when maroon was the coach, they had a smart analytics guy who was probably just working on marketing projects from Russ Brandon

Are you talking about deploying analytics for in-game strategy? Or a broader application?

In terms of the latter, that's where the analytics staff for pro franchises tend to earn their keep. For example, the Red Sox have a large analytics staff. Much of their work is focused on player projection and forecasting. Not just current Sox, or MLB players, but the 20 year olds playing for Vanderbilt or winter ball in Mexico, or guys in the Dominican league. If you hit on a couple players that end up being productive major leaguers it justifies the expense of an analytics team, sometimes by multiples.

In the case of basketball I think the true analytical skill is deciphering individual performance in a sport that's very much a team game. There's no better example of that right now than Lampkin. He's doing for us what he did for Colorado. Except there he had 3 NBA-caliber players surrounding him. Our evaluation of him was bad, because we didn't properly distinguish his value on a team that would have far less talent.

I suspect the hope is that Kline and his team make us much better in that aspect of projections and forecasting.

In-game strategy is whole other kettle of fish, IMHO.

 

[Sbucketball]

Dan E was SPECIFICALLY brought in here to teach defense. If anyone is gone next year it’s him

So, what's the deal with that that? I heard Engelsted was supposed to be good defensive coach. Is he actually responsible for teaching defense here? And did he live up to expectations? Does he know his stuff, or can he not communicate it?

Just checked Engelstad's head coaching record, and he had a losing record for 5 of 6 seasons at Mount St. Mary's. Total record 72-109. I'm guessing that's why he quit to take an assistant job. He did better at Southern Vermont previously.

 

[cuseman2016]

Dan E was SPECIFICALLY brought in here to teach defense. If anyone is gone next year it’s him

It turns out, not much defense was taught! Also not a great look for him that Mount St Marys already has more wins this year than any of his years as the head man there.

 

[Millhouse]

I'd get rid of the coaches.

If there's a CFO who can't manage a business, I'm not firing the CPAs they're ignoring.

So I'm should I just always assume analytics people are good regardless of what happens on the field/court