TC cant shoot and should only be allowed 3 per half

[Millhouse]

Don't like the "Bad Scoop" business, but I agree with the observation. After that three off the curl pinballed through the net, Cooney got a lot more reckless with his shot selection.

On its face, 10 shots over 40 minutes is fine for him. Having seen each of those attempts, a number were shots he misses 90% of the time. Because of that, he shot a miserable percentage (again).

When will Syracuse find another off-guard who can make 40% (or -- gasp -- 45%) of his field goal attempts?

people ragged on me last year about looking at free throws but if you're under 80% from the line, you have no business being a gunner because good shooters hit 80%

exclusive company to shoot under 80% from the line and shoot under 34% from 3 with 600 or more shots

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb...val=600&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=pts

my enjoyment of this year is entirely dependent on boeheim forcing cooney to understand his limitations

 

[OttoMets]

Thats a great question! It's intriguing that we have only been able to teach one guard in three years how to play zone. Maybe 2 if you count G as a guard, not a SF. I mean, what gives? We recruit offensive misfits at times because they have super long arms for the zone... But, uh, they can't be taught zone apparently. So, we have this? That's some weird ish.

Somewhere I've got a spreadsheet detailing this deterioration. It's a huge bummer; we've had so many shooting guards who've been kind of limited but have been able to get the ball into the basket almost half the time (you know - the role of a shooting guard).

Boeheim seriously reevaluated things after the no-effort mutiny years of 2006-2009 and, as you note, prioritized long arms and big bodies up top over offensive skill. I understand why he did that, but I think he swung the pendulum too far in the wrong direction. People take this personally, but I'm not bashing players here; whether the name "Cooney," "Triche," "Waiters," or "Moten" is on the back of the jersey, we simply can't get by with ~30% shooting from a fifth of our personnel (in reality, way more than a fifth of our potential production, given Boeheim's offensive hierarchy and our typical underuse of big men).

I absolutely want guys who can and will play defense, but it'd be nice to have someone with the skills of Devendorf playing such an important position. As I've said before, I'd like to see more of a lineup with Gbinije at the 2 and Joseph at the point (again, defense, I know) with Cooney playing 25 or 30 minutes. Too early to judge Boeheim's experiment with this lineup, for sure, but there are some flaws there.

 

[Cusefan0307]

people ragged on me last year about looking at free throws but if you're under 80% from the line, you have no business being a gunner because good shooters hit 80%

exclusive company to shoot under 80% from the line and shoot under 34% from 3 with 600 or more shots

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb...val=600&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=pts

my enjoyment of this year is entirely dependent on boeheim forcing cooney to understand his limitations

Why can't Gbinije hit free throws?

 

[OttoMets]

people ragged on me last year about looking at free throws but if you're under 80% from the line, you have no business being a gunner because good shooters hit 80%

exclusive company to shoot under 80% from the line and shoot under 34% from 3 with 600 or more shots

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb...val=600&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=pts

my enjoyment of this year is entirely dependent on boeheim forcing cooney to understand his limitations

I wonder if there's a Syracuse exception to this rule. With the exception of McNamara, we never have automatic free throw shooters (and very rarely have a guy crack 80%). That's not a coincidence.

 

[orangefan13]

my enjoyment of this year is entirely dependent on boeheim forcing cooney to understand his limitations

Nobody would have rathered ron patterson cooney and kaleb to have forced garbage layups all last year.

people who don't understand cooneys role is 10x different with this team just don't understand.

cooney deserves no knock after yesterday. he reverted back to last years cooney on a couple of plays because lydon scored 4 points and richardson 7. Roberson got atleast 2 of his 8 points in transition.

That means 19 points for roberson, richardson lydon and Dajuan. What the hell is cooney supposed to do put up 8 points instead of 14. that would put us at 28 points. Is Gbinije supposed to average the other 40?
Richardson, Dajuan, Lydon,Roberson 8-24 30%
without roberson 5-18 or 27%
Its worse to shoot 30% on 7 and 8 points then it is on 14.

This whole thread is hilarious.

 

[OttoMets]

Your a good poster, but posts like this show emotions get in the way of people analyzing players due to built in biases. I really don't know what some of you thought we could of done last night. Pretty much everybody who played outside of Mike was worse than Cooney. Gbinije wasn't even good. Heck if you look at the advanced metrics last night, Cooney was our best offensive player. This entire thread is stupid, and I'm not trying to offend anyone.

This is where the advanced metrics let us down.

However many points Cooney had (15?) on 10 shots is good. Great for him (what's he averaging, 1 or 1.1 points per shot?). But when a guy takes shots that he never makes, he's hurting the offense.

 

[Alsacs]

Complaining about Cooney is pointless now. He is who he is. We lost this game at the FT line and the fact we got killed on the boards. Could G and Cooney help on the boards more? Yes, but that isn't really their responsibility.

Wisconsin got so many 2nd chances it shortened the game. Not really much more to say. Cooney isn't a great shooter but he good enough. The slump 2 years was much more difficult to watch than anything this year.

 

[Millhouse]

Why can't Gbinije hit free throws?

on the other hand i wonder why he hits so many 3s. it's a mystery to me

his combo of 3pt shooting and ft shooting is very rare

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb...val=200&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=pts

 

[Brooky03]

people ragged on me last year about looking at free throws but if you're under 80% from the line, you have no business being a gunner because good shooters hit 80%

exclusive company to shoot under 80% from the line and shoot under 34% from 3 with 600 or more shots

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb...val=600&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=pts

my enjoyment of this year is entirely dependent on boeheim forcing cooney to understand his limitations

here we go again

 

[SoBeCuse]

Complaining about Cooney is pointless now. He is who he is. We lost this game at the FT line and the fact we got killed on the boards. Could G and Cooney help on the boards more? Yes, but that isn't really their responsibility.

Wisconsin got so many 2nd chances it shortened the game. Not really much more to say. Cooney isn't a great shooter but he good enough. The slump 2 years was much more difficult to watch than anything this year.

Yeah, agreed. He's always going to take some bad shots. Last night he took some that were momentum killers. They just made it tough on us also by keeping us on the perimeter. Good guards who defend are going to do that to us since we don't have guys who blow by people regularly. It was just frustrating since Wisconsin had so many turnovers and gave us many chances with all of their missed layups but we couldn't capitalize even being slaughtered on the boards like we were.

 

[Brooky03]

Somewhere I've got a spreadsheet detailing this deterioration. It's a huge bummer; we've had so many shooting guards who've been kind of limited but have been able to get the ball into the basket almost half the time (you know - the role of a shooting guard).

Boeheim seriously reevaluated things after the no-effort mutiny years of 2006-2009 and, as you note, prioritized long arms and big bodies up top over offensive skill. I understand why he did that, but I think he swung the pendulum too far in the wrong direction. People take this personally, but I'm not bashing players here; whether the name "Cooney," "Triche," "Waiters," or "Moten" is on the back of the jersey, we simply can't get by with ~30% shooting from a fifth of our personnel (in reality, way more than a fifth of our potential production, given Boeheim's offensive hierarchy and our typical underuse of big men).


I absolutely want guys who can and will play defense, but it'd be nice to have someone with the skills of Devendorf playing such an important position. As I've said before, I'd like to see more of a lineup with Gbinije at the 2 and Joseph at the point (again, defense, I know) with Cooney playing 25 or 30 minutes. Too early to judge Boeheim's experiment with this lineup, for sure, but there are some flaws there.

I agree on most points. But you want Kaleb (a worse scorer than Cooney) to get more minutes?

 

[orangefan13]

Gbinije is shooting 22 for 38 from three the last 6 games outside the opening game this year.

That is 57% he needs to lay the F off those three point attempts to he can get his foul shots down any idiot can figure that out.

Tee are you out there?

 

[Millhouse]

Nobody would have rathered ron patterson cooney and kaleb to have forced garbage layups all last year.

people who don't understand cooneys role is 10x different with this team just don't understand.

cooney deserves no knock after yesterday. he reverted back to last years cooney on a couple of plays because lydon scored 4 points and richardson 7. Roberson got atleast 2 of his 8 points in transition.

That means 19 points for roberson, richardson lydon and Dajuan. What the hell is cooney supposed to do put up 8 points instead of 14. that would put us at 28 points. Is Gbinije supposed to average the other 40?
Richardson, Dajuan, Lydon,Roberson 8-24 30%
without roberson 5-18 or 27%
Its worse to shoot 30% on 7 and 8 points then it is on 14.

This whole thread is hilarious.

taking stupid shots because other guys aren't hitting is not a good idea

play your normal offense and stop assuming that your teammates won't make good shots. take good shots and play as a team

 

[orangefan13]

play your normal offense and stop assuming that your teammates won't make good shots. take good shots and play as a team

The sad thing is we did. we shot like crap. We were 36% from the field and it wasn't cooneys fault. Funny thing is one ft we win and a big part of that was because wisconsin had 20 turnovers to our 11.
Had we not had those extra 9 shots because of those turnovers it could have been much more ugly.

 

[Brooky03]

Nobody would have rathered ron patterson cooney and kaleb to have forced garbage layups all last year.

people who don't understand cooneys role is 10x different with this team just don't understand.

cooney deserves no knock after yesterday. he reverted back to last years cooney on a couple of plays because lydon scored 4 points and richardson 7. Roberson got atleast 2 of his 8 points in transition.

That means 19 points for roberson, richardson lydon and Dajuan. What the hell is cooney supposed to do put up 8 points instead of 14. that would put us at 28 points. Is Gbinije supposed to average the other 40?
Richardson, Dajuan, Lydon,Roberson 8-24 30%
without roberson 5-18 or 27%
Its worse to shoot 30% on 7 and 8 points then it is on 14.

This whole thread is hilarious.

Amen

 

[OttoMets]

I agree on most points. But you want Kaleb (a worse scorer than Cooney) to get more minutes?

I paid particular attention to Joseph last night, in part because he's been getting crushed on here recently. In his limited time, he was our only player who was able to collapse Wisconsin's defense with the dribble drive and he did a good job, on the whole, of getting the ball into the hands of shooters. He didn't look to score much, but he did make a jumper (and he shot well early the season, only to disappear in the last few games).

We've only got a small sample size to work with, but Joseph certainly improved in the off-season. It'd be nice to see what he can do in extended minutes. At the very least, we've got over 3 years of evidence to demonstrate that Cooney is a very limited player over 40 minutes. Why not make him 30-minute player who's potentially better-rested and more productive? If Joseph stinks, go back to Marathon Man.

 

[SoBeCuse]

The sad thing is we did. we shot like crap. We were 36% from the field and it wasn't cooneys fault. Funny thing is one ft we win and a big part of that was because wisconsin had 20 turnovers to our 11.
Had we not had those extra 9 shots because of those turnovers it could have been much more ugly.

True but they didn't allow much penetration and kicks. We really weren't collapsing their D at all except for a couple of plays. We took lots of threes that were bad or off of not really moving their defense much, imo.

 

[KevMonstah]

It would be less contentious thread if it was titled something like

"Cooney should stop shooting fadeaway threes early in the shot clock."

That shot, ten seconds into the shot clock immediately after a tv timeout with SU up 41-35 cannot possibly be what was diagrammed in the huddle. Furthermore, everyone has seen JB flip out and yank someone who's taken a far superior shot than that one. Cooney ought to have learned by now that there are good shots, and there are bad shots, and taking bad shots does not help the team, even if the team is stumbling through a poor shooting performance [and couldn't get the rebound anyway ... grrr]. You can understand that shot if the clock is under 5; it wasn't. I'm of the opinion that, he's probably one of the tired legs people, and this year, there actually are shooters on this team, so he could be rested for 5-7 mins a game, yet he continues to play virtually the entire game, every time. He doesn't suck, but he'd sure seem a lot better if he ditches the [terrible form / fadeaway / not ready to shoot] shots he insists on taking each game.

Kev

 

[orangefan13]

True but they didn't allow much penetration and kicks. We really weren't collapsing their D at all except for a couple of plays. We took lots of threes that were bad or off of not really moving their defense much, imo.

great point. late in the game they played off of Malachi and cooneys drives they wanted them to pullup for the long two/ non nba 3 instead. They were expecting to take a charge near the fouline.

Gbinije is playing really really really good right now he probably should be ACC player of the year as of right now as a point guard who runs more from the perimeter and spots up. its to bad he doesn't have a couple of mid/low post threats to go to. Hes averaging 19.5 right now and against Elon and Lehigh we were getting settled in with changing the offense.

 

[CusefanATL]

I know that this board loves TC. He is our charlie hustle but he cant find his arse with a flash light. Guy is a terrible shooter who takes the worst shots ever in important situations. At the end of the day he is such a choker when it counts. Please JB play your boy but do not let him shoot.

you are worried about Cooney - who overall played pretty well last night - and not Malachi?

I saw a funny tweet last night after his 3rd or 4th horrible shot in a row. It simply said: "Malachi Greene"

 

[CusefanATL]

It would be less contentious thread if it was titled something like

"Cooney should stop shooting fadeaway threes early in the shot clock."

That shot, ten seconds into the shot clock immediately after a tv timeout with SU up 41-35 cannot possibly be what was diagrammed in the huddle. Furthermore, everyone has seen JB flip out and yank someone who's taken a far superior shot than that one. Cooney ought to have learned by now that there are good shots, and there are bad shots, and taking bad shots does not help the team, even if the team is stumbling through a poor shooting performance [and couldn't get the rebound anyway ... grrr]. You can understand that shot if the clock is under 5; it wasn't. I'm of the opinion that, he's probably one of the tired legs people, and this year, there actually are shooters on this team, so he could be rested for 5-7 mins a game, yet he continues to play virtually the entire game, every time. He doesn't suck, but he'd sure seem a lot better if he ditches the [terrible form / fadeaway / not ready to shoot] shots he insists on taking each game.

Kev

agree, but JB isn't doing it to Mali either. Mali took lots of bad shots. Cooney took maybe 2.

 

[Alsacs]

Honestly Cooney bashing should go the way of the Dodo bird. When you know nothing is changing complaining does no good. Just accept him as a player with limitations and JB trusts.

We lost on the FT and the fact we have no big depth beyond Roberson/Lydon. How Chino is on scholarship is amazing. The dude has played under 150 minutes in his career and has been on scholarship 3 years now. Now I get he was suppose to RS year 1 but seriously give us something in year 3. JB has him buried like he is a walkon.

 

[richard levy]

Cooney's shot selection is a problem and he still can't finish consistently around the rim. His game is more well-rounded than it's ever been, but he's limited and not perfectly suited to the role of #2 scorer.

That said, no one played very well tonight. That happens sometimes.

It's college, you can't make a trade or check to see who's available in the D-league. He hustles. plays good D, and there will be games when they don't play teams that D up like Wisky

 

[MikeSU02]

Why does anyone think TC will change?

He is a fifth year senior. Whatever your opinion is of him, don't expect it to change. For better or worse, he is who he is and we are riding with him for the season.

He's an inefficient player who takes lots of shots, will hustle, will probably let his emotion/adrenaline takeover rational decisions at times. He'll hit some big shots. He'll hit some key FTs. He'll have game here or there where he'll go off. He'll have games where he goes 2-13. He's not going to crack 35% from three and he won't crack 40% from the floor, overall, for the year.

This isn't to say every other player is great. I'm just talking TC because of the thread topic.

 

[orangefan13]

Why does anyone think TC will change?

He's not going to crack 35% from three and he won't crack 40% from the floor, overall, for the year.

This isn't to say every other player is great. I'm just talking TC because of the thread topic.

1.Did a stat the first 6 games of the season TC was shooting 31% from three you take away the 6 forced threes he would have hit 36% from 3.
2.the thee games in the bahamas TC was 43% inside the arc and he took a bad 2 or two or it would have been around 45%

As a young team with lots of scoring options just getting loose in a new offense those things can steady out.

Its going to take malachi forcing all the late and isolation shots for that to happen and crisp ball movement and good shots for lydon roberson and dajuan for that to happen though. I give it about a 30% chance of happening because I still think Cooney will force a few even if that happens though. Its just natural for him at this level of ball now.